Lively shafts - a question for cue makers

BillPorter

BillPorter

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
A fairly common comment about the playability of a cue is that the cue seems "dead" or unresponsive. Alternately, some cues are described as "lively." I have always wondered if this difference in responsiveness might be due to the shaft wood. And then I heard somewhere that Jackson Tan, who makes Viattorre cues, tests shaft wood by bouncing it on a hard surface before selecting a piece to turn down into a shaft. The comment about "bouncing" did NOT go on to say whether he picks the wood that bounces most or that bounces least. I would guess that more bounce would be preferred. So my question is, do any of you test shaft wood by bouncing it (end-wise, of course)? And related to that, wouldn't the piece that bounced the highest have the most "life?" Thanks in advance for any responses.
 
I think he was possibly listening to the tone of the wood...I do that aswell...
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Isn't the tone of the wood determine by the amount of ring cout in the dowel...the higher the ring count the better tone of the shafts. All the good shafts that play good have straight and tight grain around 14 ring plus. Plus...ideal weight for the shaft should be 3.6 to 4.2 oz...depending on the weight of the butt....ideally I prefer 19.0z...15.4 on the butt and 3.6 oz of my shaft. I was told 19.0 oz was the ideal and optimum weight given the weight of the cue ball and object ball.

Regards,
Duc.

Regards,
Duc.
 
Cuemaster98 said:
Plus...ideal weight for the shaft should be 3.6 to 4.2 oz...depending on the weight of the butt....ideally I prefer 19.0z...15.4 on the butt and 3.6 oz of my shaft. I was told 19.0 oz was the ideal and optimum weight given the weight of the cue ball and object ball.

Regards,
Duc.
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I'd say it's purely presonal preference as I don't like a shaft to be any less than 4.0 oz for my everyday playing cue, and I like the weight to be at least 19.4 with forward balance. Tough subject to give definitive answers to I guess.

Regards,
Koop
 
Isn't the tone of the wood determine by the amount of ring cout in the dowel...the higher the ring count the better tone of the shafts. All the good shafts that play good have straight and tight grain around 14 ring plus.

No.
I've bounced shafts with 10 grains or less that ping better than the higher grained ones.
Imo the pingier shafts will give you better feedback in the hands and ears but not make it livelier.
Now, if you have a nice shaft with buckhorn ferrule and nice layered tip and a nice butt, you're good to go.:)
 
My shafts are so lively that I have to use a ladder and retrieve them from the roof immediately after bouncing.:D :D :D
 
We tend to associate the number of grai lines to the inch with strength & hardness. I just sanded 2 shafts down from 13mm to 12 1/2mm. One had about 13/15 grain lines & the other about 6-8. The 6-8 line shaft was way harder to sand & the other sanded away in a flash. Go figure...JER
 
BLACKHEARTCUES said:
We tend to associate the number of grai lines to the inch with strength & hardness. I just sanded 2 shafts down from 13mm to 12 1/2mm. One had about 13/15 grain lines & the other about 6-8. The 6-8 line shaft was way harder to sand & the other sanded away in a flash. Go figure...JER
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What causes high grain lines per inch? Well, the answer is slow growth. Actually, slow diameter growth is the answer. The relationship to DBH and height of a tree is strong, but not perfect. That relationship is affected by many stand variables.

What causes slow growth? If a tree has slow growth because of poor soil, lack of nutrients, too much competition hence poor water uptake, then it will be poor wood despite having a high ring count. If it has slow diameter growth because of being a codominant in a closed canopy stand, and the carbon gain of the tree is going into height growth to reach more sunlight rather than diameter growth, the site is not limited in terms of water and nutrients, then the wood will be good wood with a high ring count as a bonus.

Kelly
 
BillPorter said:
A fairly common comment about the playability of a cue is that the cue seems "dead" or unresponsive. Alternately, some cues are described as "lively." I have always wondered if this difference in responsiveness might be due to the shaft wood. And then I heard somewhere that Jackson Tan, who makes Viattorre cues, tests shaft wood by bouncing it on a hard surface before selecting a piece to turn down into a shaft. The comment about "bouncing" did NOT go on to say whether he picks the wood that bounces most or that bounces least. I would guess that more bounce would be preferred. So my question is, do any of you test shaft wood by bouncing it (end-wise, of course)? And related to that, wouldn't the piece that bounced the highest have the most "life?" Thanks in advance for any responses.
Click to expand...
I'd like to ask the same question in a different way. If I have a shaft with playing characteristics that I prefer, is it realistic to request a cuemaker to make a shaft with similar characteristics?
 
misterpoole said:
I'd like to ask the same question in a different way. If I have a shaft with playing characteristics that I prefer, is it realistic to request a cuemaker to make a shaft with similar characteristics?
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It is realistic to request a shaft with the same diameter and taper, ferrule, tip, insert etc, but it might not be realistic to expect both shafts to play exactly the same.

I know a cuemaker who cut four shaft blanks from one board, two sets of two shafts in line with each other, so each individual set of 2 were comprised of the same growth rings, all 4 following the grain. Each blank was tapered in the same direction when looking at the original orientation in the board, they all got the exact same treatments and ferrules, taper, tip. They each played differently squirt wise, 2 warped, 2 stayed straight.

Kelly
 
Kelly_Guy said:
It is realistic to request a shaft with the same diameter and taper, ferrule, tip, insert etc, but it might not be realistic to expect both shafts to play exactly the same.

I know a cuemaker who cut four shaft blanks from one board, two sets of two shafts in line with each other, so each individual set of 2 were comprised of the same growth rings, all 4 following the grain. Each blank was tapered in the same direction when looking at the original orientation in the board, they all got the exact same treatments and ferrules, taper, tip. They each played differently squirt wise, 2 warped, 2 stayed straight.

Kelly
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TAP-TAP-TAP.....Been there done exactly that. I just try to explain this very thing & then do the best I can. I have one customer, that I've made 9 Qs for. They are high dollar Qs for me(over $2000) & he requests that all shafts are interchangeable & that they all play the same. Can't be done, in my opinion. The joint material, weight & butt material all affect the hit. So far he has been happy, but they are nowhere near alike...JER
 
test test

BLACKHEARTCUES said:
I just try to explain this very thing & then do the best I can. ..JER
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I think we/I am asking is what can be done to make a reasonable effort to match a shaft? I have so far heard of a ping test, a bounce test. What other tests help in determining the characteristics of a shaft?
 
misterpoole said:
I think we/I am asking is what can be done to make a reasonable effort to match a shaft? I have so far heard of a ping test, a bounce test. What other tests help in determining the characteristics of a shaft?
Click to expand...

I would suggest that the weight (density) of the shaft will have a bearing on the hit. So if you are trying to match shafts the weight should be similar.
 
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misterpoole said:
I think we/I am asking is what can be done to make a reasonable effort to match a shaft? I have so far heard of a ping test, a bounce test. What other tests help in determining the characteristics of a shaft?
Click to expand...

You can bounce, shaft blanks & try to match 2, but once you have a finished shaft, you're best to match a 2nd shaft is by weight & growth ring count. It's not a science. I have a flat laminated & a 2nd shaft with 15 grain lines, on my playing Q. They certanly aren't the same, but I play with both. If you are in a tournament & the tip flys off you'll be glad you have that second shaft, no matter how different it is from your favorite...JER
 
Other than the final parameters of the shaft already mentioned (taper, diameter, treatments during turning, etc)...

The 2 shafts being sourced from the same part of the world.
The 2 shafts being harvested during the same season (as in winter harvest, summer...not necessarily same year).
The 2 shafts undergoing the same drying method and schedule.
The 2 shafts having the same grain lines per inch, grain orientation, AND density.
The 2 shafts having the same tonal properties, as best as one can tell by bouncing, tapping, etc.
The cuemaker selecting the shafts to be matched as closely as possible based on his experience and evaluation of all of the above, just like Jer says, to the best a cuemaker can do.

Wood is wood. It has a shear strength value. It has a hardness value. It has characteristics describing its bending properties. It has tonal properties, etc etc. All of these affect the playability to some degree, and even within the same species of tree, all of the these properties vary slightly from tree to tree, even location within the same tree. Wood is made up of very small individual fibers. I have viewed research on these individual fibers, watched them put in a special machine that measured the force required to break them. You can actually hear them pop. You change the makeup of those fibers the smallest amount, you change everything about the wood.

The only complete test is how a shaft plays after it is complete. All of the things mentioned and talked about are good guidelines to help the cuemaker strive to hit the target he or the customer is aiming at in regards to how a particular shaft will play. Sometimes differences end up very small, sometimes not, maybe sometimes undetectable to even the best players.

Ofcourse this is all IMO.
Kelly
 
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Kelly_Guy said:
What causes high grain lines per inch? Well, the answer is slow growth. Actually, slow diameter growth is the answer. The relationship to DBH and height of a tree is strong, but not perfect. That relationship is affected by many stand variables.

What causes slow growth? If a tree has slow growth because of poor soil, lack of nutrients, too much competition hence poor water uptake, then it will be poor wood despite having a high ring count. If it has slow diameter growth because of being a codominant in a closed canopy stand, and the carbon gain of the tree is going into height growth to reach more sunlight rather than diameter growth, the site is not limited in terms of water and nutrients, then the wood will be good wood with a high ring count as a bonus.

Kelly
Click to expand...

I get wood when you talk all technical . . . :p
 
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