LJJ vs. Sigel TV, my thoughts

Cornerman

Cornerman

Cue Author...Sometimes
Silver Member
I can honestly say that there were enough positives from the broadcast that given appropriate feedback and criticism (of which Deno should have his finger on the pulse that is this board), the shows will just get better and better.

First the negatives, to get them out of the way:

Too much shock from KT as to how they missed shots. LJJ hasn't been the top female in a decade, and Sigel is still in rust mode aftaer 10 plus years out of competition.

Rules confusion.

I don't mind that they had the 8-ball on the break as a win, but to say that it's because they're playing professional rules? The 8-ball on the break hasn't won in decades.

It wasn't explained clearly enough to the average player that it was "open after the break." They danced all around the subject, but never said it concisely enough. Even I was confused as to whether or not they truly understood the rules that they (the announcer) were discussing.

Not enough strategy discussion. I don't know if it was the editing, but both players were going through their shots relatively quickly. 8-ball is a thinking game as far as runouts go. A little more discussion is necessary especially comparing it to 9-ball.

Too many times saying "and 8-ball is a much tougher game than 9-ball." 8-ball is a different game than 9-ball. Too say it's tougher is misleading at best. Down right wrong at worst.

Too many times saying "Mike jumped right up" after missing a shot. Mike Sigel has ALWAYS jumped up after shots. He and Allen Hopkins are the fathers of jumping up after a shot. So, it's not an issue for them.

Now on to the positives:

All those negatives above were really right around the same theme: the announcer's responsibility to the audience. And they did their thing about 100 times better than Mitch Laurance could.

California Kim Davenport has the perfect voice and humor to be the color commentary. (He only made one double negative).

The view of the table was what I'd rather see... that is, a 3D shot from above, rather than "2D" from directly above, from the side.

Sigel looked good. Dapper. I'm glad he left his trademark vest at home.

Loree Jon looked stunning. She looked happy. Nervous, but happy. The closup of her showed just how pretty this woman is.

In the end, the play was sub-standard for 8-ball professionals, but I can see good out of that. It will only get better. Loree Jon missed late so many times on relatively easy racks.

The slow cloth did played a factor. So did the tight pockets.

So... how do they make things better?


Fred
 
I was playing league at the time this was broadcast... Are there any repeat plans? Did they play much safety and is there a "shot clock, extension" in this format?

Cornerman said:
I can honestly say that there were enough positives from the broadcast that given appropriate feedback and criticism (of which Deno should have his finger on the pulse that is this board), the shows will just get better and better.

First the negatives, to get them out of the way:

Too much shock from KT as to how they missed shots. LJJ hasn't been the top female in a decade, and Sigel is still in rust mode aftaer 10 plus years out of competition.

Rules confusion.

I don't mind that they had the 8-ball on the break as a win, but to say that it's because they're playing professional rules? The 8-ball on the break hasn't won in decades.

It wasn't explained clearly enough to the average player that it was "open after the break." They danced all around the subject, but never said it concisely enough. Even I was confused as to whether or not they truly understood the rules that they (the announcer) were discussing.

Not enough strategy discussion. I don't know if it was the editing, but both players were going through their shots relatively quickly. 8-ball is a thinking game as far as runouts go. A little more discussion is necessary especially comparing it to 9-ball.

Too many times saying "and 8-ball is a much tougher game than 9-ball." 8-ball is a different game than 9-ball. Too say it's tougher is misleading at best. Down right wrong at worst.

Too many times saying "Mike jumped right up" after missing a shot. Mike Sigel has ALWAYS jumped up after shots. He and Allen Hopkins are the fathers of jumping up after a shot. So, it's not an issue for them.

Now on to the positives:

All those negatives above were really right around the same theme: the announcer's responsibility to the audience. And they did their thing about 100 times better than Mitch Laurance could.

California Kim Davenport has the perfect voice and humor to be the color commentary. (He only made one double negative).

The view of the table was what I'd rather see... that is, a 3D shot from above, rather than "2D" from directly above, from the side.

Sigel looked good. Dapper. I'm glad he left his trademark vest at home.

Loree Jon looked stunning. She looked happy. Nervous, but happy. The closup of her showed just how pretty this woman is.

In the end, the play was sub-standard for 8-ball professionals, but I can see good out of that. It will only get better. Loree Jon missed late so many times on relatively easy racks.

The slow cloth did played a factor. So did the tight pockets.

So... how do they make things better?


Fred
Click to expand...
 
steffi said:
I was playing league at the time this was broadcast... Are there any repeat plans? Did they play much safety and is there a "shot clock, extension" in this format?
Click to expand...

There was no shot clock, and there was not much safety play. Loree Jon shot one safety early, a decent one as far as 8-ball goes, but Mike ran out "easily."

Fred
 
I was looking for something to watch and my cable guide said billiards at 11:30.I turn it on and sure enough its the IPT.I thought Sigel even though he looked rusty,still looked like he could hold his own against anyone. Lorree Jon well thats another matter.I dont think she should of been there.She looked terrible.I dont mean physical.I hope next months matches will be a bit more exciting and promoted better.I also think KT should stay away from the cameras.He reminds me of the guy who owns the Dallas cowboys.Has the money but no game and is a wannabee
 
Cornerman said:
I don't mind that they had the 8-ball on the break as a win, but to say that it's because they're playing professional rules? The 8-ball on the break hasn't won in decades.
Click to expand...

How about 2001 Accu-Stats Invitational ? They Had the 8 ball Win on break :P

But im just teasing you ...

In fact i haven`t seen the match yesterday since we don`t have this channel here :(
 
Cornerman said:
I can honestly say that there were enough positives from the broadcast that given appropriate feedback and criticism (of which Deno should have his finger on the pulse that is this board), the shows will just get better and better.

First the negatives, to get them out of the way:

Too much shock from KT as to how they missed shots. LJJ hasn't been the top female in a decade, and Sigel is still in rust mode aftaer 10 plus years out of competition.

Rules confusion.

I don't mind that they had the 8-ball on the break as a win, but to say that it's because they're playing professional rules? The 8-ball on the break hasn't won in decades.

It wasn't explained clearly enough to the average player that it was "open after the break." They danced all around the subject, but never said it concisely enough. Even I was confused as to whether or not they truly understood the rules that they (the announcer) were discussing.

Not enough strategy discussion. I don't know if it was the editing, but both players were going through their shots relatively quickly. 8-ball is a thinking game as far as runouts go. A little more discussion is necessary especially comparing it to 9-ball.

Too many times saying "and 8-ball is a much tougher game than 9-ball." 8-ball is a different game than 9-ball. Too say it's tougher is misleading at best. Down right wrong at worst.

Too many times saying "Mike jumped right up" after missing a shot. Mike Sigel has ALWAYS jumped up after shots. He and Allen Hopkins are the fathers of jumping up after a shot. So, it's not an issue for them.

Now on to the positives:

All those negatives above were really right around the same theme: the announcer's responsibility to the audience. And they did their thing about 100 times better than Mitch Laurance could.

California Kim Davenport has the perfect voice and humor to be the color commentary. (He only made one double negative).

The view of the table was what I'd rather see... that is, a 3D shot from above, rather than "2D" from directly above, from the side.

Sigel looked good. Dapper. I'm glad he left his trademark vest at home.

Loree Jon looked stunning. She looked happy. Nervous, but happy. The closup of her showed just how pretty this woman is.

In the end, the play was sub-standard for 8-ball professionals, but I can see good out of that. It will only get better. Loree Jon missed late so many times on relatively easy racks.

The slow cloth did played a factor. So did the tight pockets.

So... how do they make things better?


Fred
Click to expand...
Nice summary Fred!

btw: The IPT website results section displays 8-ball breaks (Mike was credited with one), so I'd assumed this was one of their rules that deviated from the BCA.
 
i posted this on another thread, so i'll just cut and pasted what i wrote...

The IPT commentary was horrible. Dumbing down pool so the ordinary schmoe can fully comprehend is not the best way to go. Not only does it bore the real pool players that are watching, but there is only so much the ordinary guy can take away from the game. Then it would become boring for everyone.

I say broadcast it exactly the way the accustats tapes are broadcasted...with actual professional commentary and play by play. Sure, the average guy won't understand all that's being said, but that's the best way to get a person interested and peak his curiosity.

Pool is a game with which everyone is familiar with the basic object of the game (hit the balls into the pockets), but basic strategy, execution, and technique are still foreign to most people. Have an ordinary guy watch a pool match with REAL professional commentary (such as an accustats tape), and he won't understand half of what's being said. He'll think, "Wow, there's a lot more to this game than simply banging balls into pockets. What is all this stuff about low-left hand english? What is this 'key ball' thing? Why do they want to break up that cluster right away? How is he on the 'incorrect side' of that ball? How can these broadcasters map out the whole runout just by looking at the spread of balls after the break?"

People who have any remote interest in pool would want to know the answers to these questions (people who are not interested in these questions, i can argue, would be disinterested in pool no matter how it is broadcasted or commented). Ignorance can sometimes be the biggest hook for some people. After a few viewings, these average viewers will steadily increase their pool knowledge, and before you know it, they're hooked. That's exactly how poker became so popular in the past few years. I think pool can be the same way...just don't dumb down the commentary!
 
My Thoughts

I couldn't disagree more with the notion that this was an inadequate broadcast. Sure, there were some flaws. I was tired of Kevin Trudeau after the first 15 minutes, but I understand what he was trying to accomplish. Besides, he is putting up some serious cash, so he can say anything he wants about the players as far as I am concerned.

I find ESPN broadcasts extremely annoying. As a pool player, I understand what the players are trying to do and can appreciate their shot selections. I do not need Mitch and Ewa, or whomever, talking ad nauseum about what shot is next and why. It grates on me. I really enjoy the Sky network's broadcast of the World Pool Championships. Their commentators are great and the IPT has moved much closer to that style than ESPN has. They actually made the game enjoyable to watch. I could just relax and think about why Jones chose a specific shot, rather than having the announcers cram the reasoning down my throat. I could also enjoy their reactions, etc.

This is not to say that I do not enjoy detailed commentary on the whole. If I want that sort of thing, I can always go to Accustats. Pool broadcasts on ESPN and FSN, however, are not geared towards pool players as players, but rather towards a general audience of which some may play pool. This is an important distinction. The promoters and networks must put out a product that is appealing to the masses and attracts advertisers, etc. This is where the real money will come from. By having more nonchalant announcing, you appeal to more people.

I cannot wait to see some more IPT events. They are bound to have some terrific shooting with the kind money being advertised. The field for December's tourney looks absolutely breathtaking. I wish I could be there.
 
A Review of the IPT 8-Ball World Championships Coverage

Boy, you AZ posters are tough to please! I couldn’t believe just how critical everyone was of the event. Overall I thought the production was fair. There was far too much to cover in one hour with all of those commercials. I am sure the IPT coverage will evolve as we move along. This is a huge lift for the sport. I am going to follow the tour closely. I can’t wait.

Here is what I thought the positives and negatives were.

POSITIVES

· Prize Money: I think everyone agrees that the prize money was substantially higher than previously offered. To all those KT knockers out there... It was his own money. What have you invested in the promotion of the sport you claim to love so much? It is great for the game!
· Battle of the Sexes: A good gimmick. I think everyone wonders just how the sexes truly stack up against each other at the top levels of the game.
· Video Graphics: These were great! The introduction was intriguing. I thought it was similar to a modern NFL broadcast introduction. The best part of the presentation! Exciting!
· Slower Cloth: This is going to show the difference between a pro and amateur stroke. The purests out there should love it. This is what the legends from the last century that we all he about played on.
· Tighter Pockets: Check out the IPT website for the actual specs. They are indeed tighter than what we have been seeing on TV lately. Who wants to watch a match where the pockets are so generous that nobody ever misses? These players are so damn good, that they need to be challenged. I wish they were even tighter. I want to see more strategy and safety play. That is what 8-ball is about. 9-ball is better suited for extremely aggressive play.

NEGATIVES

· Table Time: They actually did not show that much pool. It is understandable that the airtime needed would be very costly to show the entire match, but THIS IS ESSENTIAL. Imagine what the SuperBowl viewership would be if they starting abrieviating the coverage.
· Commentary: This was terrible. I think KT should have a role more like Don King's. Stay out of the coverage and concentrate on the promotion of the tour. He does not have enough insight into the game from what I got. I understand that the IPT is seeking a non-pool player audience, but it seemed like he wasn't giving that average Joe enough credit. I think the commentating should be much more technical if they want to inspire interest and viewership.
· Celebrity Interviews: [/B]Lame. I undertstand the strategy, but to have them done in a whisper while the match is in progress makes the event seem like an exhibition, not a competition. If they must do these, they should put them in a little picture-in-picture box and conduct them outside of the playing area. I want to see pool!!
· Undisclosed Top Prize: This was unbelievable to me that the amount of Sigel’s prize was not addressed. They showed the second place award of $75K, but not the first? Huh?
· Event Title: To call this a championship is a little ridiculous considering there were only to contestants and they were both invited to play. This was probably done to for the hype, but I don't think much of it unless both players earned there way to the finals through a world-class field. Not a championship in my book. This was an exhibition.
· Rule Clarification: I thought it was absurd that they did not even mention a player’s obligation to make a legal hit in ball-in-hand, and furthermore what constitutes one. For the layperson the rules of the game are the most important thing to understand. Many would not have even understood the objective of a safety otherwise. Not that I saw any safeties. I think they should have had a run down of the IPT rules at the onset. They even review them prior to a boxing match.
 
I asked someone who is very casual pool player who could not stand to sit through an accustats video no matter how hard I tried to explain how great it is, in fact the one 8-ball tape I gave them they raved more about the commentators Bill and Grady having somewhat of a heated battle. To be honest they had little interest because they where not fans of the players and didn't want to sit through the entire match.

So for the most part they liked the IPT event better then accustats, and they did feel it was more of an event then the ESPN pool matches. It really hurt that they already knew the outcome, I feel if they didn't know the outcome and it was closer, it would have been a huge hit with them. They could care less about seeing every game and only wanted to see how it played out and wanted to see great shots, again like with accustats video they had no interest in the players.

The IPT must create likable players or hated players, they have to have the fans be interested in the players, because to be honest pool alone is no draw to the average player. Plus there are some darn good players at local rooms you can see in person play for some money that is much more entertaining because they have favorites and they are right there in the action.
 
I'd like to hear from people who watch live.

bobroberts said:
I was looking for something to watch and my cable guide said billiards at 11:30.I turn it on and sure enough its the IPT.I thought Sigel even though he looked rusty,still looked like he could hold his own against anyone. Lorree Jon well thats another matter.I dont think she should of been there.She looked terrible.I dont mean physical.I hope next months matches will be a bit more exciting and promoted better.I also think KT should stay away from the cameras.He reminds me of the guy who owns the Dallas cowboys.Has the money but no game and is a wannabee
Click to expand...

I hear so much how LJJ shouldn't have been there, but is this coming from people who have seen female pros play live? Or from people who have only seen them play in broadcast matches in the past?

I hope that people realize that the matches you see on ESPN are edited for time constraints and that they edit out the majority of mistakes that are made. They'll completely skip games where multiple errors occur and it's mostly nineball which at that level of play is easier to run out than eight. In eightball at that level it becomes more a game of chess. I'm not saying that people can't easily run out in eightball, just that at that level it's more unlikely on slow nap cloth with decently tight pockets because the players won't necesarily attempt to run out.

Again I would like to hear from people who have seen the live matches by other top female pros.
 
Good Point

Jaden said:
I hear so much how LJJ shouldn't have been there, but is this coming from people who have seen female pros play live? Or from people who have only seen them play in broadcast matches in the past?

I hope that people realize that the matches you see on ESPN are edited for time constraints and that they edit out the majority of mistakes that are made. They'll completely skip games where multiple errors occur and it's mostly nineball which at that level of play is easier to run out than eight. In eightball at that level it becomes more a game of chess. I'm not saying that people can't easily run out in eightball, just that at that level it's more unlikely on slow nap cloth with decently tight pockets because the players won't necesarily attempt to run out.

Again I would like to hear from people who have seen the live matches by other top female pros.
Click to expand...


I think this is a valid point. I have watched the women play live several times and you certainly see mistakes that you wouldn't expect. In fact, I saw the very first Women's Trick Shot Magic at Mohegan Sun, in CT. It took, no lie, 3 damned hours for the final between Ewa and Jeanette. The matches were excruciatingly slow. I know this isn't the same as 9-ball, but both players took an very long time to choose shots, then set them up. Then you would get the opposing player out there showing the shooter how to set up for a challenge shot, etc. My point, I suppose, is that none of this is apparent from the televised version. You couldn't even tell that the crowd had thinned and we few who remained were half asleep. Television can make it look as good, or bad as they want.
 
Overall I thought that the broadcast was a step forward.

I agree about keeping KT out of the commentary booth - he became very repetitive, as well as about Kim Davenport being an excellent selection. I didn't really think that the FSN announcer (w/the deep voice) served much purpose. Mary, the blonde girl who interviewed Mike & Loree, was cute and likeable; so was the celeb interviewer girl.

It's clear that they are trying to stress the glitz and glamor of the tour to the audience. Obviously the money should be stressed, but as an ardent pool fan I thought they dwelled on the celebs a bit much. However this may be what John Q. Channelflipper needs to catch his attention, so I can live with it.

The set was superb, and I agree with Fred about the 3D aerial view - it's much better than the direct overhead.

I didn't see many strategic plays shown, which is good and bad. I'd like to see them as they're the meat & potatoes of 8-ball but I suppose the masses like to see non-stop run-out pool. I think I'm willing to sacrifice a bit in the beginning to get more viewers on board. I liked how the players were mic'ed and their little comments were aired. I think ESPN mic's players but I never really hear anything from them. I also agree that the commentary was shallow, but it's early yet.

I'm looking forward to the eventual broadcast of the King of the Hill matches. I think it took them about 2 months to get this broadcast aired and that's not too bad. Overall, one thumb way up.
 
Tight Pockets vs Generous Pockets

schypda said:
POSITIVES

· Tighter Pockets: Who wants to watch a match where the pockets are so generous that nobody ever misses?
Click to expand...

Many people begin playing 8 ball because they find it fun and easy. As we know, many bar room tables have generous pockets. Beginners have fun seeing those colored balls go in. I guess most people would have a "ball" seing pros on TV run-out quickly. This could entice those who have not tried 8 ball to begin visiting the pool halls.

When these same people see Pro's missing on TV, they don't know that the pockets are tighter; therefore, the first thing they blurt out is: "that Pro missed an easy shot, he/she must be a wuss." They immediately question how in earth can these people be called Pros?.

You then have two choices: chuckle/laugh and ignore their remarks, or try to explain that table conditions are different to what they are accustomed to and that play at the Pro level is much more difficult. They most probably don't want to hear about the difficulties of the table, and they will shrug you off, possibly disrespecting your opinion.

My belief is that tight pockets may be good for the above-average, semi-pros, and pro players but not for the begginners. If you want to attract more people to watch 8 ball on TV and possibly instill interest to the newcomers, you definitely don't want tight pockets on TV. As soon as a Pro player misses, people will change the channel. They dont want to see players missing, they want to see players pocketing the balls and whipping their opponent's butt on National TV. Generous pockets will also cut table-time and TV editing and we will probably be lucky enough to watch the entire run-out.

Tight pockets could be good or bad for the viewers. We should just let the IPT decide what they are going to do.
 
I recorded the match on my TIVO and watched it late last night. My first thought was, "Is this a pool match or a wrestling match?". The way sigel was escorted in with 6 super models. Seemed a little crazy at first but maybe its just something different to get more people interested in pool. I think that is obviously what they are trying to do with the high payout, celebrities walking around everywhere, the extravagent entrance, etc. The more I watched it the more it reminded me of the World Poker Tour or whatever its called that you always see on TV with the almost annoying announcing and drama that they try to incorporate into the show like the little one on one interviews with the players talking crap about each other. Now moving on to the announcing. It was funny and drove me crazy at the same time. I was starting to wonder if the announcers were reading a script or if they just had no knowledge of the game whatsoever. From the constant remarks about the felt being too slow making the game "MUCH HARDER" and 8 ball being a "MUCH HARDER" game than 9 ball. 8 and 9 ball are completely different games and if anything 9 ball is "MUCH HARDER" than 8 ball. They even said something to the extent of the pockets being smaller on the tables they were playing on then the tables played on at other professional events. All and all I guess it was fun to watch once you get over the crappy announcing, but there really wasn't as much actual pool being shown as you would see on a match shown on ESPN. Hopefully the announcing will get a little better. They should be able to keep it dumbed down enough for a general audience and satisfy the pool players expectations at the same time. They could do something similar to how they did the "Classic Billiards" matches that you see coming on the ESPN Classic channel with mosconi, fatts, lassiter, etc. where they use Allen Hopkins to give the thought processes of the pro and the reasoning behind it and at the same time have some football announcer working for ESPN give his input and encourage Allen to explain everything at a level most can understand. Just my two cents.
 
My 2 cents

Fred,
I think you got most of my observations. As to improvement:

1. Kevin needs to learn when to speak and when to let the pictures speak. I realize he was selling here; as time goes on he needs to slow down the pitch. If he remains in the booth, and he is the boss, he could use some coaching.

2. Do a better job at explaining the rules. There will be a lot of pool newbies watching down the line and they'll need some explanations. What connotes a foul, what is ball in hand, etc. Remember, this isn't meant to appeal to all the players already out there. It has to bring in the main stream to grow the game.

3. Show more pool. I realize it was the first show. If it had been a hill - hill match, it would have been easy to make it exciting. Since it was, effectively, a blowout the producers were working hard to make it a good show which they achieved IMHO. With more matches available, I think everyone can be satisfied. They had a tough time cramming this all into an hour and did a good job.

Things to keep? The venue looked awesome, the graphics and sound were terrific and the production values were top notch. Excellent look to all things pool.

Brian in VA
 
It's a start.

I'm glad to see players getting paid real money to compete in my favorite sport. I'm glad to see 8-ball on TV. I'm really liking the fact that even the losers of this IPT are going to take home some cash. I like idea of multiple broadcasts so that everyone gets a chance to see the events. I like that idea of men and women competing on the same level. I like older and newer players competing against each other too.

Was the commentary a little on the lame side of things? Sure it was, but I believe in giving it time. This is the flagship event. Selling the tour was the number one priority and they did that.

I am excited with the idea of more pool on TV. I don't care about Natural Cures commercials or Sigel DVD's. I do care about more people playing pool. I can always do without the chauvinistic BS of Sigel. Just because you are the better player doesn't mean you have to down play someone else's talent. That stuff gets old (just like the sportsmanship of Stickland in the 2004 Skins game) and we could all do with a little less of that.

Outside the fact there wasn't a lot of pool shown, it was a great way to start off what I hope to be a successful tour. Seeing pool reach golf or poker status on TV, seeing the money go out to the players, and seeing the game played by the best players makes the whole thing a winning opportunity for all pool players everywhere.
 
I dont know what you guys were expecting, but what you got [ according to the reviews] is pretty much what you are going to get.
What you can expect is loads of ads and very little pool. After all, KT has never said he was doing this for pool.
The next shows will get worse for the pool fanatics [ ie,all of us-the forum junkies:p ] who want to see our sport on tv because there will be 150 players telling us the story of their lives etc, so that the 'new' audience can get to know them and bond/make a connection.

This show is all about drama, not sport. The IPT is about Natural Cures, not pool.

I didnt see the show, but I have one question.

Did you see one rack from start to finish? Just wondering.

Gabber
 
Gabber said:
I dont know what you guys were expecting, but what you got [ according to the reviews] is pretty much what you are going to get.
What you can expect is loads of ads and very little pool. After all, KT has never said he was doing this for pool.
The next shows will get worse for the pool fanatics [ ie,all of us-the forum junkies:p ] who want to see our sport on tv because there will be 150 players telling us the story of their lives etc, so that the 'new' audience can get to know them and bond/make a connection.

This show is all about drama, not sport. The IPT is about Natural Cures, not pool.

I didnt see the show, but I have one question.

Did you see one rack from start to finish? Just wondering.

Gabber
Click to expand...

Yeah, the one where Sigel broke in the 8. lol.
 
I just watched it on ch 31. There were actually 2 complete racks played, the first rack where LJJ broke but couldnt run out, so it was finished by sigel. The second was, as Linda said, the rack where sigel pocketed the 8 on the break.

I mean, the idea of the IPT is good, but the way it was televised could have been soo much better. They could also change up the commercials a bit as well.....
 
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