Looky Here, Referee!

[poolboy17]

I never did get the gentleman's name who was the designated referee.

Later on in the same match-up, another questionable call came up. The same player who requested a ref previously once again called out for the referee. When the same designated referee made his way over to their table, the player did not want to have the same gentleman making the call, and promptly said, "Oh, no. Forget it," and said to his opponent, "Go ahead and shoot the ball. I'll just have to live with it."

As in any sport, oftentimes a referee's call can result in the outcome of the game. I had wondered if referees for high-profile events were credentialled, and after reading the posts to this thread, I have learned that there are veicles out there which certify a referee's competency. That's a good thing.

JAM

Yes, there has been a real move by the BCA to professionalize the referee program. As for the situation you described about not wanting the same referee...you can ask for someone different any time. No matter the level, they should accomodate this request. Now, if it's a pro match and there is only ONE ref...that's a little different. Even in that case...we try to accomodate it.

Invaribly there are some calls that can tilt a match...no doubt. The last thing I want to do is to become part of your match. I want your game to be decided on the table by you guys. If I have to make a call that puts one shooter out...so be it. However, I can tell you that I am going to make as absolutley sure that it's the right call that's humanly possible.

 

[no-sho]

question for the rule

I was the referee in a bundesliga match here in Austria 10 years ago and had this situation. 9 ball race to 9, score 2 to 2. The opposing team has the break.He doesn't make a ball on the break and nobody notices the fact he came up dry on the break. He then proceeds to shoot the one. I know he has not pocketed a ball on the break, so my question is, should I inform the player he hasn't made a ball on the break or not??? My personal feeling is, that I'm not supposed to tell the players how to play, only referee after the fact. I let him shoot the one and then called the foul because he didn't make a ball on the break. It had nothing to do with the fact he was on the opposing team! I would have done the same if it was my team member that made the mistake! I'm curious as to what's the correct course of action is!!!!!!


no-sho

 

[pooladdict]

I think you were right

I was the referee in a bundesliga match here in Austria 10 years ago and had this situation. 9 ball race to 9, score 2 to 2. The opposing team has the break.He doesn't make a ball on the break and nobody notices the fact he came up dry on the break. He then proceeds to shoot the one. I know he has not pocketed a ball on the break, so my question is, should I inform the player he hasn't made a ball on the break or not??? My personal feeling is, that I'm not supposed to tell the players how to play, only referee after the fact. I let him shoot the one and then called the foul because he didn't make a ball on the break. It had nothing to do with the fact he was on the opposing team! I would have done the same if it was my team member that made the mistake! I'm curious as to what's the correct course of action is!!!!!!


no-sho

According to the new standardized rules from WPA, first we have this statement in general:
"1.10 FAILURE TO LEAVE THE TABLE
When a player's inning comes to an end, the player must discontinue shooting. Failure to do so is loss of game (exception in 14.1 - ruled as "deliberate foul")."


And then you have:
"2.9 CALLING FOULS
The referee will call fouls as soon as possible after they occur"
So in your case it seems it was correct to wait after he had made his shot to call the foul.

But the question is - according to rule 1.10 - should he had lost the whole game immediately?

 

[poolboy17]

According to the new standardized rules from WPA, first we have this statement in general:
"1.10 FAILURE TO LEAVE THE TABLE
When a player's inning comes to an end, the player must discontinue shooting. Failure to do so is loss of game (exception in 14.1 - ruled as "deliberate foul")."


And then you have:
"2.9 CALLING FOULS
The referee will call fouls as soon as possible after they occur"
So in your case it seems it was correct to wait after he had made his shot to call the foul.

But the question is - according to rule 1.10 - should he had lost the whole game immediately?

1.10 - This rule is based on intent. It really applies more to a person that intentionally keeps shooting after their turn is over. For instance, a guy misses a ball and thinks their opponent isn't watching and fires another one in. In this case, it is a ball in hand foul but not a loss of game unless you basically thought he was pulling a fast one. If a referee is presiding over the match, it should be pretty easy to figure out if they did it on purpose or not.

2.9 - Perfect rule for the situation. However, that said...in some games, such as 8 ball, there are certain required warnings.

I was the referee in a bundesliga match here in Austria 10 years ago and had this situation. 9 ball race to 9, score 2 to 2. The opposing team has the break.He doesn't make a ball on the break and nobody notices the fact he came up dry on the break. He then proceeds to shoot the one. I know he has not pocketed a ball on the break, so my question is, should I inform the player he hasn't made a ball on the break or not??? My personal feeling is, that I'm not supposed to tell the players how to play, only referee after the fact. I let him shoot the one and then called the foul because he didn't make a ball on the break. It had nothing to do with the fact he was on the opposing team! I would have done the same if it was my team member that made the mistake! I'm curious as to what's the correct course of action is!!!!!!


no-sho

If I understand you correctly, you were refereeing the game and not playing. You did the right thing in this case. Referees are not allowed to give subjective opinions as to what balls to shoot, how to shoot them, etc. There are only a few required warnings and this is not one of them.

If you were the opposing player...while you are not technically required to warn somebody of this...there are those that will say that you should out of good sportsmanship. If I were the opponent...I would probably say something. It would likely cost me that game and possibly the match but my impending guilt wouldn't allow me to sit and watch him do it.

 

[no-sho]

[QUOTE

If you were the opposing player...while you are not technically required to warn somebody of this...there are those that will say that you should out of good sportsmanship. If I were the opponent...I would probably say something. It would likely cost me that game and possibly the match but my impending guilt wouldn't allow me to sit and watch him do it.[/QUOTE]

No, I wasn't playing! Only the referee. That's why IMHO it wasn't correct to interject until after the fact.

Another question, if a player is shooting the wrong number ball in 9 ball and the opposing player doesn't say anything. Why would the referee say anything? His job is to referee, not tell them how to play.

no-sho

 

[poolboy17]

No, I wasn't playing! Only the referee. That's why IMHO it wasn't correct to interject until after the fact.

Right, you were correct. That's what I said.

Another question, if a player is shooting the wrong number ball in 9 ball and the opposing player doesn't say anything. Why would the referee say anything? His job is to referee, not tell them how to play.

no-sho

I don't quite understand your question. The opponent nor the referee are required to say anything prior to that shot either...I don't believe I said they did. All I said is that an "opponent" out of good sportsmanship might warn him.

There are some mandatory warnings that a referee is required to make (under instructions for referees 2.16). For instance, in nine ball...if you're playing the three foul rule...you must warn a player they are on two fouls prior to their shot. Others include: Failre to stop shooting after a foul has occured and if a player is requesting coaching assistance (not legal in BCA competition).

 

[Snapshot9]

Questions ...

Before refs or in money matches, it used to be
that the opposing player determined if a foul was
committed or not. If the shooter disagreed, he voiced
his opinion, and a solution was reached.
Now, especially in tournaments, a shooter can shoot,
and commit a foul, the opposing player can call a foul,
and the shooter can reply with 'There was no ref watching
the shot, so no foul'. This type of situation can create a
lot of problems.
I have run local tournaments, and refereed too, plus in bigger
tournaments, I have been in the upper echeleon of players,
and was asked by the tournament director to help ref. I always
take it seriously, and I realize the importance of making a good
call.
Maybe with the IPT, KT will show some consideration for the
Ref area, knowing the importance of it, and maybe provide
the Refs with more compensation than they have had before.
A good ref in a large important tournament deserves it, IMO.

 

[poolboy17]

Before refs or in money matches, it used to be
that the opposing player determined if a foul was
committed or not. If the shooter disagreed, he voiced
his opinion, and a solution was reached.
Now, especially in tournaments, a shooter can shoot,
and commit a foul, the opposing player can call a foul,
and the shooter can reply with 'There was no ref watching
the shot, so no foul'. This type of situation can create a
lot of problems.
I have run local tournaments, and refereed too, plus in bigger
tournaments, I have been in the upper echeleon of players,
and was asked by the tournament director to help ref. I always
take it seriously, and I realize the importance of making a good
call.
Maybe with the IPT, KT will show some consideration for the
Ref area, knowing the importance of it, and maybe provide
the Refs with more compensation than they have had before.
A good ref in a large important tournament deserves it, IMO.

Scott,

You're very right and it's nice to have you weigh in on the situation.

 

[sniper]

When it comes into the world or referees two of the best are definitely Michaela Tabb and Nigel Reese, maybe I'm just saying that because I've seen them ref so many times on TV but I can't recall them ever making a bad call in the hundreds of matches I've seen them ref, I'm sure they've made mistakes before but from what I can tell their usually spot on with their calls, does anyone know if they will be reffing at all for the IPT?

 

[poolboy17]

When it comes into the world or referees two of the best are definitely Michaela Tabb and Nigel Reese, maybe I'm just saying that because I've seen them ref so many times on TV but I can't recall them ever making a bad call in the hundreds of matches I've seen them ref, I'm sure they've made mistakes before but from what I can tell their usually spot on with their calls, does anyone know if they will be reffing at all for the IPT?

Michaela says on her website that she has made calls that were later proven to be mistakes. EVRYONE makes mistakes from time to time. I do not know if she or Nigel will be involoved with the IPT or not.

 

[Colin Colenso]

What background does one need to be a competent referee?

JAM

I believe part of the test to prove worthiness, is to show the capability to walk and breathe at the same time

You sure do find some wanabe dictators drifting into referee positions. They don't normally have much competition for the job. And you also meet some really fine folks who start doing it our of benevolence and are appreciated for their good work.

 

[Island Drive]

Yes, there has been a real move by the BCA to professionalize the referee program. As for the situation you described about not wanting the same referee...you can ask for someone different any time. No matter the level, they should accomodate this request. Now, if it's a pro match and there is only ONE ref...that's a little different. Even in that case...we try to accomodate it.

Invaribly there are some calls that can tilt a match...no doubt. The last thing I want to do is to become part of your match. I want your game to be decided on the table by you guys. If I have to make a call that puts one shooter out...so be it. However, I can tell you that I am going to make as absolutley sure that it's the right call that's humanly possible.

So are the BCA instructors, and yes they tutorials and workshops are a huge improvement, but are they overseen by the BCA in Colorado Springs, or through Mark Griffin out in NV?

 

[TX Poolnut]

KOH Orlando

All this talk about refs reminded me of several calls at the KOH Orlando event. The refs were calling fouls that many of the players were upset about. For example, I was watching Schmidt vs. Hohmann. Hohmann commited a foul and Schmidt took BIH. He set the cue ball on the table and as he was standing, he looked at the shot. Obviously no happy with where the cue ball was, he rolled it sideways with his shaft about a 1/8 inch. The ref immediately called foul. John looked stunned. He obviously didn't know that would be called because they do it all the time. Hohmann instantly refused the foul and the ref backed off. John immediately acknowledged Hohmann by softly clapping in his direction and he kept shooting. I think Hohmann earned some reputation points with John at that moment. The funny part is that John almost did the same thing, but caught himself and smiled, as he was putting the ball back down on the table.

Also, I was watching the Allison Fisher vs. Bustamante match on the main table. Bustamante was breaking the balls like the well-oiled machine that he is and Fisher took note of that. In between games, Allison jokingly asked Fransisco if he would mind breaking for her. The ref came over to Allison and warned her that talking between the players was forbidden. I don't know for sure, but she seemed a little put off since she was just joking with someone that she obviously was friendly with.

I guess the refs were just enforcing the rules as they were told, but the players weren't filled in.

 

[sniper]

All this talk about refs reminded me of several calls at the KOH Orlando event. The refs were calling fouls that many of the players were upset about. For example, I was watching Schmidt vs. Hohmann. Hohmann commited a foul and Schmidt took BIH. He set the cue ball on the table and as he was standing, he looked at the shot. Obviously no happy with where the cue ball was, he rolled it sideways with his shaft about a 1/8 inch. The ref immediately called foul. John looked stunned. He obviously didn't know that would be called because they do it all the time. Hohmann instantly refused the foul and the ref backed off. John immediately acknowledged Hohmann by softly clapping in his direction and he kept shooting. I think Hohmann earned some reputation points with John at that moment. The funny part is that John almost did the same thing, but caught himself and smiled, as he was putting the ball back down on the table.

That was a pretty classy move on the part of Hohmann.

 

[AuntyDan]

That was a pretty classy move on the part of Hohmann.

This was a new rule the IPT introduced. (No placement or movement of the cue ball when you have BIH with anything except your hands.) Clearly Hohmann felt it was not fair to harsly penalize the players the first time they came across this. Perhaps a warning from the Ref would have been more appropriate during the first major IPT event as players are still getting used to the IPT rules.

 

[Mark Avlon]

Make It Better

People choose to become a referee for countless reasons. I’m a player, BCA league operator, a BCA Pool League National Senior Referee, and a BCA Certified Instructor. I love the game. I want to provide my league players a great league to play. I want them to have great regional and national tournaments they can play. I teach so that my students will get more out of the game. Few things are more rewarding than a player, who you don’t know, stops you and shakes your hand to thank you for running the league or making a tough call.

Several organizations recognize the need for and have referee programs. The amateur organizations have a limited budget for compensation and have a large staff. At the BCA nationals, there have typically been fifty referees on staff for nine days. The majority of their staff has been in the program for many years and is very experienced. There are always new referees joining the staff. Obviously, it takes time for them to gain the same experience.

Referees are not machines. They are all different. They make decisions based on what they see and what they know. Although most calls are straight forward, not all shots are black and white. Small distances between the hits between balls or rails can make it difficult to clearly and accurately judge the shot. The referee will position them self in a position to see the shot as best they can. Position is extremely important. It is impossible for some ten or twenty feet away at an odd angle to judge a close situation. The make the call to the best of their ability, and if there is any doubt, it goes to the shooter. Referees don’t always get it right. We’re human. I have skeletons in my closet. The thing is, we learn from it.

I find it very unfortunate that tournament directors feel that a player can easily assume the role of a referee and make good calls. I’ve found many good players who don’t understand what happens in close hit or double hit situation. They often rely on sound and speed for the basis of their judgment. Using fill-in referees does a great disservice to the players, the tournament, and the referee programs.

I don’t understand why the IPT referees are taking criticism for calling a foul when the shooter moved the cue ball with their cue. The number one rule in any sport or game is to know the rules. The rule was printed and discussed in the player’s meeting before the tournament started. The referee’s job is to apply the rules fairly and consistently. They can’t arbitrarily choose not to call a foul when they thing is a trivial thing. What I didn’t understand is why a shooter playing for so much money wouldn’t take the time to learn the rules and avoid the foul.

 

[JAM]

I don’t understand why the IPT referees are taking criticism for calling a foul when the shooter moved the cue ball with their cue. The number one rule in any sport or game is to know the rules. The rule was printed and discussed in the player’s meeting before the tournament started. The referee’s job is to apply the rules fairly and consistently. They can’t arbitrarily choose not to call a foul when they thing is a trivial thing. What I didn’t understand is why a shooter playing for so much money wouldn’t take the time to learn the rules and avoid the foul.

12.0 Fouls

All fouls result in the opponent of the player who committed the foul being awarded cue ball in hand. The following are fouls:

a. Cue ball fouls- if a player's cue touches the cue ball in anyway other than a legal stroke (players are not allowed to position the cue ball with their cue stick after being awarded cue ball in hand); any touching of the cue ball with a mechanical bridge, body part, piece of clothing, chalk, or anything related to the shooter....

...d. Any touching of an object ball with the cue stick at the time of the stroke, as a result of the stroke, or after the stroke....

I just happened to have a set of the "Official IPT 8-Ball Rules" sitting on my desk!

JAM