Looky Here, Referee!

[JAM]

I've always wondered about how various pool events select the referees. Is there a school or a class for aspiring pool folk who desire to be referees? Are they certified by a higher authority and/or given "official" credentials? I have always been curious about this.

I have seen referees make good calls and bad calls, like in any sport. I remember one incident at the Pro/Am tournament of the Super Billiards Expo where the referee made a VERY OBVIOUS bad call. Even me, a layperson, could see that there was a bad hit, but the designated referee seemed sheepish when he said it was a good hit, not even uttering a word until the player asked him to call the shot.

With MAJOR tournaments up ahead, is there now a greater need for qualified referees, or do they already exist? Where do they come from? Is there a referee membership organization?

I would welcome any and all thoughts on this topic!

JAM

 

[rackmsuckr]

I know that the BCA puts on classes and certifies the refs. They hold seminars at Nationals in Vegas for the refs. You can be state certified and then nationally certified.

The ones for the IPT were recommended by the BCA. I know because one of my friends was one. Actually, the one that made the snafu on Efren's match. He is highly regarded as a ref, but I guess was just not in the moment. He will forever be notorious for that act, but I talked to him later and no, Kevin was not mad at him and he was not fired. KT seems to be a very forgiving person. Also, I think it will make for some great drama on TV, and like everyone else, once you make a huge mistake, it will never be repeated!

The World tournaments - I'm not sure who selects them, it could again have something to do with the BCA or the WPA. I know Michaela is very knowledgeable and is usually used for those.

 

[Snapshot9]

Just an interesting point ...

that was published recently. Referees in the
Missouri Valley Conference, now make $1,800
a game for Basketball. What do refs in a large
Pool tournament make, if anything?

 

[Barbara]

that was published recently. Referees in the
Missouri Valley Conference, now make $1,800
a game for Basketball. What do refs in a large
Pool tournament make, if anything?

Nada.

Oh wait, I think the BCA is compping them rooms now in Vegas.

Barbara

 

[straybullet]

The World tournaments - I'm not sure who selects them, it could again have something to do with the BCA or the WPA. I know Michaela is very knowledgeable and is usually used for those.

That's becuase if you want it done right, you need a woman. Now Linda... remember my retarded baboon theory?

Case in point... When I lived in Texas, I would play in a couple of tournaments over the weekend. There was this guy that was a super jumbo grand poobah BCA referee guy... now I understand that he's a refereee for the BCA and everything and how some people might really care, but that doesnt mean he has the power to call fouls on everyone at a $5 entry 9 ball tournament for hacks like me. Now I have long hair and sometimes its all over the place and if I was playing this guy in a tournament and my hair touched the table, or the cue ball or any ball by accident, he wouldnt say anything, he'd just pick up the cue ball -one time I was still down taking practice strokes and he just picked up the cue ball while I was shooting...and if I said anything he would tell me that I fouled and then he'd shoot with no explanation...OR- if I did get an explanation it usually wasnt in line with the rules we were playing - he just knew he was probably going to lose and he didnt want to lose to a girl. He just liked telling everybody how he was a super jumbo grand poobah BCA referee - it was a power trip thing... look at me.. I call fouls...ain't I special??? lol... so remember my retarded baboon theory!

 

[BRKNRUN]

I've always wondered about how various pool events select the referees. Is there a school or a class for aspiring pool folk who desire to be referees? Are they certified by a higher authority and/or given "official" credentials? I have always been curious about this.

I have seen referees make good calls and bad calls, like in any sport. I remember one incident at the Pro/Am tournament of the Super Billiards Expo where the referee made a VERY OBVIOUS bad call. Even me, a layperson, could see that there was a bad hit, but the designated referee seemed sheepish when he said it was a good hit, not even uttering a word until the player asked him to call the shot.

With MAJOR tournaments up ahead, is there now a greater need for qualified referees, or do they already exist? Where do they come from? Is there a referee membership organization?

I would welcome any and all thoughts on this topic!

JAM

I wonder if each player will get a red flag to put in thier pocket to throw on the table after a close hit and they think the call may be wrong...

 

[macguy]

I've always wondered about how various pool events select the referees. Is there a school or a class for aspiring pool folk who desire to be referees? Are they certified by a higher authority and/or given "official" credentials? I have always been curious about this.

I have seen referees make good calls and bad calls, like in any sport. I remember one incident at the Pro/Am tournament of the Super Billiards Expo where the referee made a VERY OBVIOUS bad call. Even me, a layperson, could see that there was a bad hit, but the designated referee seemed sheepish when he said it was a good hit, not even uttering a word until the player asked him to call the shot.

With MAJOR tournaments up ahead, is there now a greater need for qualified referees, or do they already exist? Where do they come from? Is there a referee membership organization?

I would welcome any and all thoughts on this topic!

JAM

I think people forget the referee is on stage the same as the players in big tournaments and they can also dog it once and a while. Just training them in the rules isn't enough.

 

[JAM]

I wonder if each player will get a red flag to put in thier pocket to throw on the table after a close hit and they think the call may be wrong...

LOL! Actually, though, it's not a bad idea. With the advent of technology, instant replay is a definite possibility.

An incident did occur at the IPT KOTH in Orlando, and the tape was reviewed by the staff and authorities relating to a questionable hit, though it was after the fact because the player, Marlon Manalo in this instance, did not speak up during the match when it occurred. Marlon did not make his opinion known until the conclusion; thus, his first loss to Francisco Bustamante. I wonder if Marlon would have voiced his concern or said ANYTHING if he had won that match.

Competent referees are important when making calls which can affect the outcome of a game. What background does one need to be a competent referee? Is the BCA currently the credentialling authority on this?

JAM

 

[rackmsuckr]

Good thing at the IPT there are cameras for instant replay. Yeah, Debra, I got called at World's for the same thing by Michaela. Wasn't really fair since we did not have refs assigned for every table, she just happened to be passing by. She just called it.

A lot of times, refs will not call a foul when you call them over, you have to call the foul and then they confirm or deny it. Also, they can't explain the rules to you; you have to know them, regarding why they call it a foul or not.

As far as pay, when I ran our regional tour, we paid for the hotel if needed for one night, and wrote into the room contract for free meals and drinks (nonalcoholic) plus he got the undying devotion from a bunch of women.

 

[poolboy17]

Nada.

Oh wait, I think the BCA is compping them rooms now in Vegas.

Barbara

This is wrong, there is compensation beyond getting a room. Refs are not supposed to talk about compensation. It's not enough to do it full time but enough to keep us coming back.

The BCA/ACS and Valley all have referee certification programs. All the refs at the Orlando IPT event were BCA nationally certified refs. BTW the refs made hundreds of calls during the KOTH tournament and there were TWO challenged.

The certification programs have gotten MUCH better in recent years and thus expectations are higher.

There is also "State" certification in which someone can pass a test through the mail and get certified. They do not need any class room training for local certification.

 

[AuntyDan]

LOL! Actually, though, it's not a bad idea. With the advent of technology, instant replay is a definite possibility.

An incident did occur at the IPT KOTH in Orlando, and the tape was reviewed by the staff and authorities relating to a questionable hit, though it was after the fact...JAM

I've actually been quite impressed with the calls by the Matchroom refs at the Mosconi and World Championships matches. Whenever I've seen a controversial or close call made the slow-motion video replay has always confirmed they got it right. However I've not seen every single one, so perhaps sometimes they are wrong, no one is perfect. I could see the IPT having some kind of NFL-style video referee system, but they'd have to limit the number of times a player could dispute a call or SOME players would be there all day.

...the player, Marlon Manalo in this instance, did not speak up during the match when it occurred. Marlon did not make his opinion known until the conclusion; thus, his first loss to Francisco Bustamante. I wonder if Marlon would have voiced his concern or said ANYTHING if he had won that match.

I thought this was the correct behaviour if you are a Pro player in a tournament with a referee. Charlie Williams had to do something similar in the '04 Skins tournament when Strickland clearly fouled but the foul was not seen by the referee despite being obvious to everyone else. He got up expecting to have the BIH given to him, but as soon as it became clear the call was not going to come he sat back down without saying anything, although he was clearly not happy about it.

...Competent referees are important when making calls which can affect the outcome of a game. What background does one need to be a competent referee? Is the BCA currently the credentialling authority on this?

Judging by last night's audio pronouncements from KT I'd imagine the IPT will be setting up their own system for training and testing referees for the future, or at the very least SAYING they will be doing this. What will end up actually happening we will have to wait and see.

 

[Island Drive]

I've always wondered about how various pool events select the referees. Is there a school or a class for aspiring pool folk who desire to be referees? Are they certified by a higher authority and/or given "official" credentials? I have always been curious about this.

I have seen referees make good calls and bad calls, like in any sport. I remember one incident at the Pro/Am tournament of the Super Billiards Expo where the referee made a VERY OBVIOUS bad call. Even me, a layperson, could see that there was a bad hit, but the designated referee seemed sheepish when he said it was a good hit, not even uttering a word until the player asked him to call the shot.

With MAJOR tournaments up ahead, is there now a greater need for qualified referees, or do they already exist? Where do they come from? Is there a referee membership organization?

I would welcome any and all thoughts on this topic!

JAM

Jam, in the past most, refs and mind you not all, were players that wished they were good but never really were, and therefore stepped into the lime light and got there recognition fulfilled. Now many of them are very good referees, but quite a few didn't understand the physics of the game and therefore were unable to make the proper call. What the sport needs when it comes to ref's on the high end is great players in that spot to increase the chances of making a good call. Great players on a split type hit will first look at the path the balls must take and use that info also to come to a conclusion which is extremely difficult for an amateur player turned ref to understand. John Lewis is very knowlegeable about this subject.

 

[poolboy17]

Jam, in the past most, refs and mind you not all, were players that wished they were good but never really were, and therefore stepped into the lime light and got there recognition fulfilled. Now many of them are very good referees, but quite a few didn't understand the physics of the game and therefore were unable to make the proper call. What the sport needs when it comes to ref's on the high end is great players in that spot to increase the chances of making a good call. Great players on a split type hit will first look at the path the balls must take and use that info also to come to a conclusion which is extremely difficult for an amateur player turned ref to understand. John Lewis is very knowlegeable about this subject.

I am a referee. BCA/ACS/Valley nationally certified.

Your post is hard for me to read in some ways because there are certainly truths to it. I am a good player although not professional caliber. I'm a master player in my state and I've made the Monday finals in the national BCA Open several times.

The national organizations have really put an emphasis in recent years toward referee training. This training program includes rules classes, physics training and on the floor training at nationals. In my opinion, I would trust any national referee to watch any shot that my opponent or I ever shot. You're right...to call shots properly, you must understand the physics of the shot. It's something they do a LOT of now. The training has become much more comprehensive.

In any job or sport you will have people that are better than others. Everyone I know has referee horror stories and I know that these things do happen. My wife and kids make me watch football games in the basement because of how much I yell at the football referees. How could he possibly miss that pass interference call? I yell at the coaches too! My point is that sometimes mistakes happen. When there is a high velocity split hit...only physics and experience are going to allow you to make the right call. Sometimes in retrospect it may not have always been the right one. If a football referee cannot see someone who weighs 300 pounds get knocked down right in front of them...isn't it possible that even a professional player might miss a call that close here or there?

Almost all the referees that I know love the game. They work constantly toward becoming better and take it VERY seriously. It's not because they are on a power trip but because they want to contribute to the game they love. The money is not always the best...why else would they do it? Desire is what drives them to become better and better.

I am proud to be a referee. Not only as a sense of personal accomplishment but also because of the professionalism of my collegues. I may not be able to beat the top players in the world on a pool table but then again...how many people can?

 

[rackmsuckr]

I am a referee. BCA/ACS/Valley nationally certified.

Your post is hard for me to read in some ways because there are certainly truths to it. I am a good player although not professional caliber. I'm a master player in my state and I've made the Monday finals in the national BCA Open several times.

The national organizations have really put an emphasis in recent years toward referee training. This training program includes rules classes, physics training and on the floor training at nationals. In my opinion, I would trust any national referee to watch any shot that my opponent or I ever shot. You're right...to call shots properly, you must understand the physics of the shot. It's something they do a LOT of now. The training has become much more comprehensive.

In any job or sport you will have people that are better than others. Everyone I know has referee horror stories and I know that these things do happen. My wife and kids make me watch football games in the basement because of how much I yell at the football referees. How could he possibly miss that pass interference call? I yell at the coaches too! My point is that sometimes mistakes happen. When there is a high velocity split hit...only physics and experience are going to allow you to make the right call. Sometimes in retrospect it may not have always been the right one. If a football referee cannot see someone who weighs 300 pounds get knocked down right in front of them...isn't it possible that even a professional player might miss a call that close here or there?

Almost all the referees that I know love the game. They work constantly toward becoming better and take it VERY seriously. It's not because they are on a power trip but because they want to contribute to the game they love. The money is not always the best...why else would they do it? Desire is what drives them to become better and better.

I am proud to be a referee. Not only as a sense of personal accomplishment but also because of the professionalism of my collegues. I may not be able to beat Efren Reyes on a pool table but then again...how many people in the world can?

Very true! I know that I hate to be called to watch a shot. Thankfully, all the ones I have called have been so obvious or right, as I have never been challenged for the call. But I sweat bullets when I have to do it!

 

[poolboy17]

Very true! I know that I hate to be called to watch a shot. Thankfully, all the ones I have called have been so obvious or right, as I have never been challenged for the call. But I sweat bullets when I have to do it!

It's tough to be under the microscope. The bigger the tourney the stronger the magnification. Try calling a good hit/foul in a professional pool tournament. Virtually every really close call is going to make one person happy and the other unhappy. Luckily, it's not happened to me but I've seen professional players wheel around and ask the audience. If it's hard to tell from three feet away...it's likely to be impossisble to tell from 20+ feet away.

 

[Barbara]

This is wrong, there is compensation beyond getting a room. Refs are not supposed to talk about compensation. It's not enough to do it full time but enough to keep us coming back.

.

I beg to differ. I went through the BCA Nat Cert program at Vegas in 2002 and had to do my floor time there. I actually went through most of the program twice because in 2001 I had to drop out due to match and class time conflicts. But THANK GOD Bob Jewett was still teaching his "How To Know How to Call A Hit" class.

Anyway, I did my floor time with two seasoned Refs. We talked about the fact that basically, unless you are a Top Ref in the then BCA system, you didn't get paid anything, but the BCA did just start picking up room tabs for the Refs. Flight costs and meals weren't compped at all. I know this personally from one Ref who can be used for International competition.

I get better compensation for my SBE time than the BCA does for most Refs at Vegas. This is sad.

If you can prove better, I want to hear about it to renew my card and classes. And hopefully, with Bob Jewett still there teaching his stuff at their classes.

Barbara

 

[Barbara]

I have seen referees make good calls and bad calls, like in any sport. I remember one incident at the Pro/Am tournament of the Super Billiards Expo where the referee made a VERY OBVIOUS bad call. Even me, a layperson, could see that there was a bad hit, but the designated referee seemed sheepish when he said it was a good hit, not even uttering a word until the player asked him to call the shot.

JAM

Do tell JAM, who was the Ref?

Barbara

 

[poolboy17]

I beg to differ. I went through the BCA Nat Cert program at Vegas in 2002 and had to do my floor time there. I actually went through most of the program twice because in 2001 I had to drop out due to match and class time conflicts. But THANK GOD Bob Jewett was still teaching his "How To Know How to Call A Hit" class.

Anyway, I did my floor time with two seasoned Refs. We talked about the fact that basically, unless you are a Top Ref in the then BCA system, you didn't get paid anything, but the BCA did just start picking up room tabs for the Refs. Flight costs and meals weren't compped at all. I know this personally from one Ref who can be used for International competition.

I get better compensation for my SBE time than the BCA does for most Refs at Vegas. This is sad.

If you can prove better, I want to hear about it to renew my card and classes. And hopefully, with Bob Jewett still there teaching his stuff at their classes.

Barbara

Prove better? I am a BCA National Ref. There is a discount on room - daily food stipend and pay for 6 hours of work. I don't know perhaps things have changed in the last couple of years. But I can assure you...there is more. I would be happy to tell you offline what the compensation package is. Again, I don't mean to argue but we are NOT basically volunteers that go to Vegas for a free room. I tend to think whoever told you different was embellishing the truth a bit. Maybe what he was referring to is that only the national Head refs get paid outside of the tournaments. They fulfill other duties throughout the year. For the National Vegas event some of the refs don't even play...they are there just to ref. You heard it from a ref that can referee international competition...I also am one of those refs and have worked pro events. If you're really interested...call Bill Stock at the BCA and ask him.

 

[cuesmith]

I've always wondered about how various pool events select the referees. Is there a school or a class for aspiring pool folk who desire to be referees? Are they certified by a higher authority and/or given "official" credentials? I have always been curious about this.

I have seen referees make good calls and bad calls, like in any sport. I remember one incident at the Pro/Am tournament of the Super Billiards Expo where the referee made a VERY OBVIOUS bad call. Even me, a layperson, could see that there was a bad hit, but the designated referee seemed sheepish when he said it was a good hit, not even uttering a word until the player asked him to call the shot.

With MAJOR tournaments up ahead, is there now a greater need for qualified referees, or do they already exist? Where do they come from? Is there a referee membership organization?

I would welcome any and all thoughts on this topic!

JAM

Someone in another thread asked me if I had any Gary Spaeth stories and this brought one to mind.

About 20 some years ago Gary and I went to a bar table tournament in Indianapolis. It was one of those tournaments where weird things just seemed to be happening! There were a lot of the better players from the mid west there. Peru Paul was in rare form, drank a bottle of vodka for breakfast and then was in the mood to party! At one point a few of us went outside for some fresh air and we had the largest flock of birds I've ever seen, ten fold, flying over. There were so many birds they seemed to block out the sky! As we walked across the parking lot a couple of the birds left there mark on Joe Browns head! That was actually kind of funny considering all the birds and the fact that there were about 6 of us, and only Joe got shit on!

Well back on the subject! The tournament came down to Gary and Steve Oaks in the finals. Steve was quite a player in the70's & 80's but got a straight job in the insurance business and gave up the competetive pool. There was a referee for the final match, but he was just a friend of the tournament director and didn't really know what he was doing. Steve played Gary safe at one point, when they were hill-hill in the match. Gary had to make a thin hit on the object ball and float to the rail where Steve would have been in a bad spot, behind a ball. Gary hit the shot too thick and didn't quite get to the rail, or even behind the blocker ball for that matter. Steve asked the ref for a ruling and the ref said "Good Hit" ! Steve was a bit hot and turned to Gary and asked him what he thought! Gary said "It was a Foul! No Rail." The ref turned his back and walked away, whereas Gary told Steve to go ahead and shoot it was a foul! Steve showed some exceptional class also in this odd situation, by not taking "ball in hand" as he was entitled, but shot a much more difficult shot, from where the cue ball landed! He did make the shot and ran out for the match, but he didn't have to make that first shot! Even though I was staking Gary in that tourney, and had a financial interest in that ref's call and Gary's decision to reverse the ref's call, I was very proud of my friend in that spot! He got some criticism from some pool players over his choice, but we both knew he did the right thing!


just more hot air!


Sherm

 

[JAM]

Do tell JAM, who was the Ref?

Barbara

I never did get the gentleman's name who was the designated referee.

Later on in the same match-up, another questionable call came up. The same player who requested a ref previously once again called out for the referee. When the same designated referee made his way over to their table, the player did not want to have the same gentleman making the call, and promptly said, "Oh, no. Forget it," and said to his opponent, "Go ahead and shoot the ball. I'll just have to live with it."

As in any sport, oftentimes a referee's call can result in the outcome of the game. I had wondered if referees for high-profile events were credentialled, and after reading the posts to this thread, I have learned that there are veicles out there which certify a referee's competency. That's a good thing.

JAM