Loree Jon Snooze.............

jasonlaus said:
Then why did LJH miss it? Thanks for proving our point.
Jason
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What point are you referring to? I stated in an earlier response that it is ultimately the responsibility of the observing player to call the foul if the shooter doesn't call it on themself, and in this incident LJH has no one to blame but herself, and I'm sure that's how she feels. Obviously she wasn't paying attention as she should have been and didn't notice it, but that doesn't answer the question as to whether or not the shooter knew it.

I can do the math - assuming there is a 5% chance either one of the 2 pro players independently may have missed seeing the foul, collectively between the two of them there is only a .025% chance (1 in 400) that they both missed it.
 
no ref = no class

Probly choreographed from the players. They are giving ya'll a hint how poor the game looks without honest ref's in place.
 
garczar said:
I didn't see what you're referring to but in 3foul if you aren't notified your 3rd foul is not a loss and you still have two on you. At least that's how we've always done it. Don't know what Zuglan does.
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Exactly! And a player doesnt have to call a foul on themselves - especially if they didnt see it.
Jason
 
ChrisinNC said:
What point are you referring to? I stated in an earlier response that it is ultimately the responsibility of the observing player to call the foul if the shooter doesn't call it on themself, and in this incident LJH has no one to blame but herself, and I'm sure that's how she feels. Obviously she wasn't paying attention as she should have been and didn't notice it, but that doesn't answer the question as to whether or not the shooter knew it.

I can do the math - assuming there is a 5% chance either one of the 2 pro players independently may have missed seeing the foul, collectively between the two of them there is only a .025% chance (1 in 400) that they both missed it.
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Maybe you can't do math 0.25% chance = 1 in 400
 
FranCrimi said:
Jennifer deserves the benefit of the doubt. She is a stand-up player and person. You have to take the player's personality into account when having discussions like this. People don't suddenly turn into cheaters. If they're cheaters, they've cheated before. She is not a cheater.

Gossip like this hurts people and their reputations, particularly with sponsors or potential sponsors.
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Regardless of whether or not she knew, it would be a huge leap to consider this as cheating. I consider cheating as a situation in which, as the shooter, you are in a position in which you are the only one who knows you have fouled and you fail to call it on yourself - such as a double hit on the cue ball that is so slight that the shooter is the only one that knows, or the shooter's body was blocking the view of the opponent being able to potentially call the double hit. Or in a case when the opponent claims that the shooter has fouled such as on a bad hit, but the shooter denies it even though they know it was a bad hit. That is completely different than bailing out your opponent for not paying attention when they should have been, particularly in a hill-hill game.

I have witnessed this very exact scenario that occurred between these two ladies play out in our tournaments in which I'm the TD. I've learned to stay out of it and say nothing, and that's how it has to be. Players have the responsibility to pay attention during their match and I'm not going to bail out a player for not paying attention when they should have been, and a spectator should not be permitted to do so either. However, in the case of an opponent claiming a bad hit on the shooter and the shooter denying it, if I was observing and in a good position to make the call and I clearly witnessed it as TD, and I know for absolute certainty that it was a bad hit, even if I hadn't been called to the table to judge the shot, I will step in to resolve the conflict with the correct call as I saw it.
 
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Danny Harriman said:
Probly choreographed from the players. They are giving ya'll a hint how poor the game looks without honest ref's in place.
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It's even worse than that. "Probly" some disgruntled out of work refs aimed laser pointers into their eyes, disorienting them briefly enough to miss the foul.

Hell hath no fury like an unemployed pool referee in the stands at an unref'd hill-hill game.
 
I don't think that anyone needs to watch Icon of Sin, he is one of the good guys here and I think there are a few guys here misinterpreting what his message was.
 
Cuebuddy said:
I don't think that anyone needs to watch Icon of Sin, he is one of the good guys here and I think there are a few guys here misinterpreting what his message was.
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No worries, just a difference of opinion.

But, to be fair, he did say that he would not "volunteer" to tell his opponent he had fouled unless asked, so by definition, yes... We WOULD need to watch him.

I am sure he is not a bad dude, but this is a real difference of opinion we have here. I just wanted to clarify that some of us on here pretty much think of it as mandatory to call a foul on ourselves...
 
If you need or feel like cheating makes you a winner guess what, your a loser. Last week in a non handicapped tournament I kicked out of a safe made contact with the correct ball but the opponent and me did not see if a rail was contacted afterwards. He asked what we should do? I picked up the cue ball and said you have ball in hand. That is what you do when your unsure of the situation. In the case here no one asked or seemed to know one way of the other. So play continued....
 
On a lighter note.. I was playing a regional championship bar box 8 ball event in Wyoming... And got a funny position where I was half-hooked on almost every ball on the table..

I tried a funky shot where I did a super thin carom off one of my balls to try and carom in a ball I was barely hooked on... Object ball moved a fraction of an inch and I got a rail, but missed the ball. Opponent, a known good player, called it a foul..

Long story short, there were a few heated words about it, and I gave him what for, for questioning my integrity. I told him, "I told you it was a good hit. If you feel that strongly about it, take ball in hand, but you have a wide open table and you're up a game, so not sure what you are complaining about. If it was a foul, I would have given you ball in hand without you asking."

He did not end up taking ball in hand.. He did end up winning the match, but I came out of the loser's bracket to get third place. The fellow saw me at another tournament the next month which I won over a strong field, and from that point on, he communicated a strong respect for my game, and I think may have even bid on me in a calcutta or two.

Some people are distrustful by nature, but this can be overcome. Just stay true to the ideals of the game.
 
Quesports said:
If you need or feel like cheating makes you a winner guess what, your a loser. Last week in a non handicapped tournament I kicked out of a safe made contact with the correct ball but the opponent and me did not see if a rail was contacted afterwards. He asked what we should do? I picked up the cue ball and said you have ball in hand. That is what you do when your unsure of the situation. In the case here no one asked or seemed to know one way of the other. So play continued....
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Tap tap tap!
 
ShortBusRuss said:
No worries, just a difference of opinion.

But, to be fair, he did say that he would not "volunteer" to tell his opponent he had fouled unless asked, so by definition, yes... We WOULD need to watch him.

I am sure he is not a bad dude, but this is a real difference of opinion we have here. I just wanted to clarify that some of us on here pretty much think of it as mandatory to call a foul on ourselves...
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To be fair I did say that and I do stand by that to an extent.

To elaborate, there have been plenty of times that I have called a foul on myself in action, in a tournament or back when I shot league. I foul all the damn time (see my disclaimer).

If I'm playing against someone that I'm generally friendly with you will see me call it on myself Everytime if I know that is in the character of my opponent as well. I do have e people that I match up with regularly with that I know for a fact wouldn't say shit if they had a mouth full of it after they fouled. In cases like that, yeah I'm not going to say anything either.

Russ mentioned earlier that he has no interest in playing someone who has has to watch like a hawk. While that is extreme, I completely understand that... But on the same note I don't want to play someone that I have to remind them of things that happened at the table because they aren't paying attention.

I guess it all depends on the situation.

H<------- asshole but not a ****ing asshole.
 
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ChrisinNC said:
Regardless of whether or not she knew, it would be a huge leap to consider this as cheating. I consider cheating as a situation in which, as the shooter, you are in a position in which you are the only one who knows you have fouled and you fail to call it on yourself - such as a double hit on the cue ball that is so slight that the shooter is the only one that knows, or the shooter's body was blocking the view of the opponent being able to potentially call the double hit. Or in a case when the opponent claims that the shooter has fouled such as on a bad hit, but the shooter denies it even though they know it was a bad hit. That is completely different than bailing out your opponent for not paying attention when they should have been, particularly in a hill-hill game.

I have witnessed this very exact scenario that occurred between these two ladies play out in our tournaments in which I'm the TD. I've learned to stay out of it and say nothing, and that's how it has to be. Players have the responsibility to pay attention during their match and I'm not going to bail out a player for not paying attention when they should have been, and a spectator should not be permitted to do so either. However, in the case of an opponent claiming a bad hit on the shooter and the shooter denying it, if I was observing and in a good position to make the call and I clearly witnessed it as TD, and I know for absolute certainty that it was a bad hit, even if I hadn't been called to the table to judge the shot, I will step in to resolve the conflict with the correct call as I saw it.
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With regard to the last part of your statement, If I were the TD in the case of a dispute in an unrefereed match where I saw the hit from the sidelines, I would tell both players that I saw the hit and ask them if they would both agree to let me call it after the fact. I believe it is wrong to just step in and call a hit after the fact without the permission of both players if the match was not refereed. If one or both of the players refused to let me make the call after the fact, then I would have to give the benefit of the doubt to the shooter, regardless of whether the shooter was right or wrong.
 
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FranCrimi said:
With regard to the last part of your statement, If I were the TD in the case of a dispute in an unrefereed match where I saw the hit from the sidelines, I would tell both players that I saw the hit and ask them if they would both agree to let me call it after the fact. I believe it is wrong to just step in and call a hit after the fact without the permission of both players if the match was not refereed. If one or both of the players refused to let me make the call after the fact, then I would have to give the benefit of the doubt to the shooter, regardless of whether the shooter was right or wrong.
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Fran, I understand the point you are making and I admit I'm overstretching my authority as the TD by doing what I described. I guess I should add that in regards to our tournaments, I know our players and I know which ones have a reputation of trying to get over on their opponent at every opportunity, and it is these individuals that I will not allow to 'cheat' an opponent if I clearly have witnessed what has happened, even if I've not been called in beforehand to judge the shot. If it is the case of 2 honest players that have no such history, I try to let them settle it before having to get involved, even if I've witnessed it.
 
FranCrimi said:
Jennifer deserves the benefit of the doubt. She is a stand-up player and person. You have to take the player's personality into account when having discussions like this. People don't suddenly turn into cheaters. If they're cheaters, they've cheated before. She is not a cheater.

Gossip like this hurts people and their reputations, particularly with sponsors or potential sponsors.
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Best response in the thread Fran :)
 
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