Low deflection ferrule material for Carbon shafts.

[shankster8]

You tested a joint collar , didn't you ?
For ferrules, I won't use them because I feel Hydex 202 and mason micarta are better .
Harder, better machinability as in higher melting temp .
Hydex polishes better and doesn't shows sanding marks as bad as ABS.

Thanks for the reply, Joey. Your post seems to have a little bit of information in it. Let me point out: amongst other generalities you say Hydex 202 is harder than ABS. That may be, but hardness is generally described using numbers such as shore hardness, Moh's hardness etc. Can you direct us to actual hardness numbers supporting your claims? If not, you should qualify your statements with "IMO", "I think" etc so they don't appear as statements of fact. Also, this thread is about low deflection ferrules for carbon shafts. Does your statement "For ferrules, I won't use them because I feel Hydex 202 and mason micarta are better." contemplate the low deflection characteristics of those materials, which is the subject of this thread?

In this thread we've stumbled onto the consideration of using ABS for low deflection ferrule purpose. Since ABS (and Hydex 202) are not included in DZ's list of low deflection materials, I emailed him this morning asking him to include those materials. Also in that correspondence I mused as to the origin of the numbers in his list. Below is the content of that email which some may find informative and of benefit to this thread pending an update to DZ's low deflection ferrule materials list. FYI, I anticipate your Hydex 202 being assigned a value of about 1.92 in DZ's list and a value of about 1.6 for ABS.

"Hello Bob! For years you've been a great contributor to the cue building community. I've learned a lot from you. Thanks!! Your list of commonly used ferrule material ranks ferrule materials according their "lightness", for lack of a better word, I'm not sure where the numbers come from that you assign to the various materials, but your "Updated list . . ." indicate that if I wish to have a material added to the list (I do, ABS) I can send you specs including the diameter, length and weight in grams. I notice those specs are the same specs necessary to calculate density (weight/volume). So, I'm thinking your chart depicts density numbers which are scaled by a multiplier resulting in the number one (1) being assigned to maple. Since the density of various maples clusters around .6 g/cm3, I suspect you use a multiplier of roughly 1.6 to adjust your maple sample's density to a value of 1 for use in your chart. Of course, that same multiplier is used to adjust the values of the other materials in your list, based on their density. Since the density of ABS is approx 1 gm.cm3, I anticipate you will assign it a value of approximately 1.6 for inclusion in your chart. I hope you can find time to reply to my musings here but, regardless, please include ABS, with density of 1g/cm3, in your Updated list of the most commonly used ferrule materials. Thank you, Henry Fletcher" (I Also asked Mr. Zuricky to include Hydex 202 in a separate email.)

 

[JoeyInCali]

Poor DZ.

 

[shankster8]

Poor DZ.

Great post, Joey! As usual few words, and little benefit to the forum. Did you ever think about contacting DZ and ascertaining where Hydex 202 fits in his low deflection materials list? Seems that would be useful information if you wish to tout Hydex in a thread dealing with low deflection ferrules. And, by the way, I expect DZ will appreciate my inquiry, there's actually some meat to it, unlike this shallow post of yours.

 

[JoeyInCali]

Great post, Joey! As usual few words, and little benefit to the forum. Did you ever think about contacting DZ and ascertaining where Hydex 202 fits in his low deflection materials list? Seems that would be useful information if you wish to tout Hydex in a thread dealing with low deflection ferrules. And, by the way, I expect DZ will appreciate my inquiry, there's actually some meat to it, unlike this shallow post of yours.

No.
Didn't know he had a low deflection list.

 

[JoeyInCali]

https://dzcues.com/ferrules_4.html
https://www.ensingerplastics.com/en-us/shapes/products/hydex-202-natural

I agree with Joey, note density of hydex 202 is 1.2 grams per cubic centimeter - nothing on DZ Cues list compares except maple

Oh good.

 

[bbb]

i am not a cue maker
what is ABS?
thanks in advance

 

[j2pac]

i am not a cue maker
what is ABS?
thanks in advance

I'm not either, but I'll take a stab.
Acrylonitrile Butadiene Styrene is a commonly used thermoplastic polymer.

 

[DeeDeeCues]

i am not a cue maker
what is ABS?
thanks in advance

It's the stuff that most consumer plastic parts are made of. Very easily cast and good machining properties.

Extensive use in the automotive and electronics industries. You can likely see a few dozen items that contain abs from where you are sitting. If you are using a computer, the keyboard and key caps are probably abs.

Also a good 3d printing material, though a bit finicky.

 

[Dave38]

Great post, Joey! As usual few words, and little benefit to the forum. Did you ever think about contacting DZ and ascertaining where Hydex 202 fits in his low deflection materials list? Seems that would be useful information if you wish to tout Hydex in a thread dealing with low deflection ferrules. And, by the way, I expect DZ will appreciate my inquiry, there's actually some meat to it, unlike this shallow post of yours.

Well, considering this is "ASK THE CUEMAKER" section...do you make cues? Joey sure does and a fine cue too!.... He has a bottomless drawer of info on the subject......What is your claim to fame as a CueMaker? You have never shown any cue work, etc. BUT you like to interject a lot of crap into other peoples threads and act like an expert, but have Not provided any actual proof you know what you are talking about. You have made claims in this thread about your "tests" and pretty much called someone's rep into question about the product they brought to market....and then backtracked when you got called out on it, BUT you never showed ANY PROOF of your tests......you could've used you phone camera to capture it....but ya didn't. Including the last test a day or so ago......if I were doing such a test after calling someone out like you did...Damn sure a camera would be rolling.....
Again, this is "ASK THE CUEMAKER" Stop being a troll.....plain and simple.

 

[DeeDeeCues]

Well, considering this is "ASK THE CUEMAKER" section...do you make cues? Joey sure does and a fine cue too!.... He has a bottomless drawer of info on the subject......What is your claim to fame as a CueMaker? You have never shown any cue work, etc. BUT you like to interject a lot of crap into other peoples threads and act like an expert, but have Not provided any actual proof you know what you are talking about. You have made claims in this thread about your "tests" and pretty much called someone's rep into question about the product they brought to market....and then backtracked when you got called out on it, BUT you never showed ANY PROOF of your tests......you could've used you phone camera to capture it....but ya didn't. Including the last test a day or so ago......if I were doing such a test after calling someone out like you did...Damn sure a camera would be rolling.....
Again, this is "ASK THE CUEMAKER" Stop being a troll.....plain and simple.

A few things here.

First, why are so many people going ballistic over the claims? There are possibilities as to why his test showed what it did. I mentioned some of those. Hell, the material in the original test may have gotten contaminated and compromised.

Second, Joey may hate the machining and polishing characteristics of ABS, but it is pretty widely recognized as very machinable, capable of a good finish quality, and glue-able in industry.

Finally (and I don't want you to take this as an attack, I also wonder about what was intended by the rules of the site) being a cuemaker is a pretty low bar, considering I made my first cue with a Sears RouterKrafter and a drill press and the cue was straight and didn't feel horrible. Personally I enjoy thoughts from people who have experiences outside of cuemaking. If you think that these types of discussions should only come from cuemakers with some kind of credentials, maybe you should suggest that. Maybe we should have a minimum number of years of making cues. I made my first one over 25 years ago, so maybe that should be the number, once you hit 25 years after making your first cue, you can post here. Maybe it should be that a person needs to make at least 150 cues per year, I wouldn't qualify, would you? Maybe a person needs to provide proof that they sold a cue for over $9k--I don't even aspire to make that sort of cue.

Any qualification for being a cuemaker is fine, but it will limit participation and reduce the discussion in the section.

 

[shankster8]

Well, considering this is "ASK THE CUEMAKER" section...do you make cues? Joey sure does and a fine cue too!.... He has a bottomless drawer of info on the subject......What is your claim to fame as a CueMaker? You have never shown any cue work, etc. BUT you like to interject a lot of crap into other peoples threads and act like an expert, but have Not provided any actual proof you know what you are talking about. You have made claims in this thread about your "tests" and pretty much called someone's rep into question about the product they brought to market....and then backtracked when you got called out on it, BUT you never showed ANY PROOF of your tests......you could've used you phone camera to capture it....but ya didn't. Including the last test a day or so ago......if I were doing such a test after calling someone out like you did...Damn sure a camera would be rolling.....
Again, this is "ASK THE CUEMAKER" Stop being a troll.....plain and simple.

You're a big mouth, Dave. You obviously have money to buy first class equipment to build cues and you think that makes you a big shot, god-like. You're not a big shot, Dave. Rather, you impress me as insecure and struggling to prove you're not a wimp. And, you think because you spent a lot of money on cue building equipment you've accomplished that. Let's be realistic, anyone who invests to the extent you have, should be able to build a cue. And, yes, from what I can tell, you've purchased and assembled the apparatus, and it appears you do some nice work. Your problem, IMO, is that you jump at every opportunity to talk down to others less invested than yourself. If it weren't for that compulsive-like behavior, you might be pretty cool. I'm not excited to jump through hoops you throw in front of me, but In the next few days I'll take some time to address your "concern" that my input isn't worthy of expression in a cue builders forum. I'll explain some of my history and show enough of my work to shut your big, insecure mouth. Here's a teaser: I'm a low income senior who relies on supplemental security income. Cue building is not a source of income for me. It's an art I began tinkering with about a decade ago after a palsy developed in my right arm which killed my pool shooting abilities. Prior to that I shot pretty good. For example, in league play in a race to seven at Victorville Billiards, I broke and ran six consecutive racks of eight ball, on eight foot, well maintained Diamond Tables. FYI Gary's Victorville Billiards was a good house with well-maintained equipment, frequented by professional players. John Schmitt came from there. The tables were maintained by the same mechanic that maintained the equipment at Hardtimes Billiards, Bellflower, CA. (most all pros played there, including Efrin, many times). Yes, a lot of words, but I'm trying to emphasize that this feat was not accomplished on a sloppy, large pocketed bar table. (And you can investigate this, I'll help you, there are many players still around that can verify this, including my old team captain.) My impression is that you're a pool player, Dave. Perhaps you understand how much traffic there is on an eight ball table, and how good your shape game must be to run out often - how about six consecutive racks, Dave? Based on this, do you believe commentary from me would be worthy of consideration in a shooters forum? You'd probably chastise me there too, like here, until you realized your lip-flapping was misguided. I'll end here for now. I'll resume again before long and try to ease your concern that I might be harmful to "your" cue building forum. Another teaser: I'll begin that conversation by explaining that I built most all my equipment from used parts. I couldn't just go out and drop thousands like you seem to have done. I look forward to continuing this later, I hope you do also.

 

[Michael Webb]

Every Thread in this section, has the possibility to be a good Thread loaded with information.
What discourages that is Individual personalities.
When it comes to different ferrule material. I keep to myself and do my own R&D work.

 

[JoeyInCali]

Second, Joey may hate the machining and polishing characteristics of ABS, but it is pretty widely recognized as very machinable, capable of a good finish quality, and glue-able in industry.

Yup, but they're not going on my cues as collars and caps.
Neither is hydex.
Don't like scratching them to make finish stick. Won't use adhesion promoter .
We are running out of white and off white materials for joints and caps.
But, Juma is still here. Don't like them either.
Fortunately, phenolic exists in different colors. And antlers for white.
Don't get me started on the hit factor of.collars.

 

[shankster8]

This thread is pretty crazy and I'm sorry I'm responsible for some of the craziness. The thread was searching for a low deflection ferrule for a carbon shaft. That ferrule was to protrude about 1/4 inch beyond the shaft, and extend a short distance into the shaft (and not contribute to a tink sound). I thought ABS might be a candidate based on its low density and its toughness based on an informal test I'd done when assessing it for butt and joint collar use. I had never used ABS for ferrules and made no assertions regarding chalk resistance etc. I was simply encouraging others to experiment. My attitude was - if you're a shooter, try it out, and not be anal about ferrule appearance. Then the fake news broke, accusing me of maligning j2pac and Tomahawk, which was never my intention. I'll repeat again, I like Tomahawk!!!!!!!!!! It is tougher than ABS and it machines better than ABS. I still think ABS might be a lower deflection material than Tomahawk but when I tried to pin that down by asking DZ to add ABS to his list of ferrule materials he declined, saying he didn't consider ABS suitable for ferrule use.

 

[shankster8]

Yup, but they're not going on my cues as collars and caps.
Neither is hydex.
Don't like scratching them to make finish stick. Won't use adhesion promoter .
We are running out of white and off white materials for joints and caps.
But, Juma is still here. Don't like them either.
Fortunately, phenolic exists in different colors. And antlers for white.
Don't get me started on the hit factor of.collars.

This post just provokes questions in my mind. I've indicated some of those questions.
" Yup, but they're not going on my cues as collars and caps. Neither is hydex." What is wrong with ABS and Hydex?
"Don't like scratching them to make finish stick." What material do you use, adhesion to which isn't enhanced by scratching or roughing its surface?
"Won't use adhesion promoter." Why?
"We are running out of white and off white materials for joints and caps." This sounds odd. What products are we running out of? Give names
"But, Juma is still here. Don't like them either." Why don't you like Juma?
"Fortunately, phenolic exists in different colors. And antlers for white." Ah, finally. Are you saying you believe phenolic and antler are the only materials suitable for cue use? (Seems you've excluded most everything else.) And you don't scratch or rough the surface of phenolic or antler "to make finish stick"?
"Don't get me started on the hit factor of.collars." I'd love to hear your feelings on this

 

[Michael Webb]

This thread is pretty crazy and I'm sorry I'm responsible for some of the craziness. The thread was searching for a low deflection ferrule for a carbon shaft. That ferrule was to protrude about 1/4 inch beyond the shaft, and extend a short distance into the shaft (and not contribute to a tink sound). I thought ABS might be a candidate based on its low density and its toughness based on an informal test I'd done when assessing it for butt and joint collar use. I had never used ABS for ferrules and made no assertions regarding chalk resistance etc. I was simply encouraging others to experiment. My attitude was - if you're a shooter, try it out, and not be anal about ferrule appearance. Then the fake news broke, accusing me of maligning j2pac and Tomahawk, which was never my intention. I'll repeat again, I like Tomahawk!!!!!!!!!! It is tougher than ABS and it machines better than ABS. I still think ABS might be a lower deflection material than Tomahawk but when I tried to pin that down by asking DZ to add ABS to his list of ferrule materials he declined, saying he didn't consider ABS suitable for ferrule use.

All good with me.
I enjoy it.
I have issues lmao
The Great part about any Forum is that
YOU, can ask any question you want.
ANSWERS on the other hand, can leave a lot to be desired.
Easier by far, to do your own R&D and be done with it.

 

[JoeyInCali]

This post just provokes questions in my mind. I've indicated some of those questions.
" Yup, but they're not going on my cues as collars and caps. Neither is hydex." What is wrong with ABS and Hydex?
"Don't like scratching them to make finish stick." What material do you use, adhesion to which isn't enhanced by scratching or roughing its surface?
"Won't use adhesion promoter." Why?
"We are running out of white and off white materials for joints and caps." This sounds odd. What products are we running out of? Give names
"But, Juma is still here. Don't like them either." Why don't you like Juma?
"Fortunately, phenolic exists in different colors. And antlers for white." Ah, finally. Are you saying you believe phenolic and antler are the only materials suitable for cue use? (Seems you've excluded most everything else.) And you don't scratch or rough the surface of phenolic or antler "to make finish stick"?
"Don't get me started on the hit factor of.collars." I'd love to hear your feelings on this

Go make some chips.
Go make some cues.
Use different materials.
Then you can decide WHATEVER you want.

Problem with you is you want information overload.

Go make cues.

 

[j2pac]

This thread is pretty crazy and I'm sorry I'm responsible for some of the craziness. The thread was searching for a low deflection ferrule for a carbon shaft. That ferrule was to protrude about 1/4 inch beyond the shaft, and extend a short distance into the shaft (and not contribute to a tink sound). I thought ABS might be a candidate based on its low density and its toughness based on an informal test I'd done when assessing it for butt and joint collar use. I had never used ABS for ferrules and made no assertions regarding chalk resistance etc. I was simply encouraging others to experiment. My attitude was - if you're a shooter, try it out, and not be anal about ferrule appearance. Then the fake news broke, accusing me of maligning j2pac and Tomahawk, which was never my intention. I'll repeat again, I like Tomahawk!!!!!!!!!! It is tougher than ABS and it machines better than ABS. I still think ABS might be a lower deflection material than Tomahawk but when I tried to pin that down by asking DZ to add ABS to his list of ferrule materials he declined, saying he didn't consider ABS suitable for ferrule use.

"I still think ABS might be a lower deflection material than Tomahawk but when I tried to pin that down by asking DZ to add ABS to his list of ferrule materials he declined, saying he didn't consider ABS suitable for ferrule use."

If someone like DZ is handing you the above statement...there's probably a reason.

 

[Rimfirejunkie]

This post just provokes questions in my mind. I've indicated some of those questions.
" Yup, but they're not going on my cues as collars and caps. Neither is hydex." What is wrong with ABS and Hydex?
"Don't like scratching them to make finish stick." What material do you use, adhesion to which isn't enhanced by scratching or roughing its surface?
"Won't use adhesion promoter." Why?
"We are running out of white and off white materials for joints and caps." This sounds odd. What products are we running out of? Give names
"But, Juma is still here. Don't like them either." Why don't you like Juma?
"Fortunately, phenolic exists in different colors. And antlers for white." Ah, finally. Are you saying you believe phenolic and antler are the only materials suitable for cue use? (Seems you've excluded most everything else.) And you don't scratch or rough the surface of phenolic or antler "to make finish stick"?
"Don't get me started on the hit factor of.collars." I'd love to hear your feelings on this

There is an old saying… Don’t go to the well too often.

 

[dendweller]

So I've followed this thread and I'm still trying to figure out how this guy did anything wrong by saying he shattered some tomahawk.

Didn't seem he was attacking anyone personally but he definitely got attacked once he said that. Not sure what effect that would have on tomahawk anyway. You don't hit your tips with an anvil and tomahawk gets nothing but rave reviews.

No, I'm not a cuemaker, but I can read.