On another note, I bought some 20 years ago as replacements for meucci ferrules, I believe from cueman. Still have a couple, delievered in a bag with ABS in sharpy on it. It's also still listed in the ferrule section of Prather's web site as one of their options.
Low deflection ferrule material for Carbon shafts.
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Let me attempt a clarification. I don't believe that shankster was "attacking" me, or anyone else for that matter. The issue at hand for me, is/was the use of the word "shatter," as it relates to a potential Tomahawk failure.
In my opinion, Tomahawk would NOT "shatter" if it failed. It is a somewhat pliable material. I'm not saying that it can't fail...any material can, under the proper conditions.
I have no personal beef with shank. He simply made a statement with regards to a material that I brought to market, and I questioned the veracity of the statement. Hopefully the issue is laid to rest.
Best regards
j2
It is interesting how defensive some experts get when they are asked technical questions that they don't know how to determine the answer to.
Sure, it might well not be a necessary part of their bag of tricks and expertise to actually make a cue. We all have various means in many fields to determine empirically what works best for ourselves. It is part of our art. OTOH, asking a technical question in any sort of maker forum should never be cause for vitriol. If you don't know, don't bother addressing the question rather than use an ad hominem attack to belittle someone. Faith based science, which is what it amounts to, is an oxymoron.
FWIW, on Mr. Dzuricky's site https://dzcues.com/ferrules_4.html
He lists Elforyn at 1.9245
Since Elforyn itself lists the density as 1.200 g/cc we can determine Mr Dzuricky's multiplier as 1.60375.
ABS has a published density of 1.04 - 1.07 g/cc
So it "should" land on the chart at 1.6679 to 1.7160
FWIW, natural elephant stuff is 1.72 "ish" g/cc so should land on the chart at 2.7585
More dense even than Ivorine 4
I personally have very large blocks of ABS here as well as rods for general purpose machined plastic parts. I do agree that for whatever personal faith-based prejudice, it has not compelled me to consider it as ferule material.
I have mentioned wanting to try Ultem, though it would fall above 2.03 on Mr Dzuricky's chart.
Sometimes (including the ABS guy) you just have to try it and see.
smt
Sure, it might well not be a necessary part of their bag of tricks and expertise to actually make a cue. We all have various means in many fields to determine empirically what works best for ourselves. It is part of our art. OTOH, asking a technical question in any sort of maker forum should never be cause for vitriol. If you don't know, don't bother addressing the question rather than use an ad hominem attack to belittle someone. Faith based science, which is what it amounts to, is an oxymoron.
FWIW, on Mr. Dzuricky's site https://dzcues.com/ferrules_4.html
He lists Elforyn at 1.9245
Since Elforyn itself lists the density as 1.200 g/cc we can determine Mr Dzuricky's multiplier as 1.60375.
ABS has a published density of 1.04 - 1.07 g/cc
So it "should" land on the chart at 1.6679 to 1.7160
FWIW, natural elephant stuff is 1.72 "ish" g/cc so should land on the chart at 2.7585
More dense even than Ivorine 4
I personally have very large blocks of ABS here as well as rods for general purpose machined plastic parts. I do agree that for whatever personal faith-based prejudice, it has not compelled me to consider it as ferule material.
I have mentioned wanting to try Ultem, though it would fall above 2.03 on Mr Dzuricky's chart.
Sometimes (including the ABS guy) you just have to try it and see.
smt
Some people need to make chips and ribbons and install them instead of reading material data sheet.It is interesting how defensive some experts get when they are asked technical questions that they don't know how to determine the answer to.
Sure, it might well not be a necessary part of their bag of tricks and expertise to actually make a cue. We all have various means in many fields to determine empirically what works best for ourselves. It is part of our art. OTOH, asking a technical question in any sort of maker forum should never be cause for vitriol. If you don't know, don't bother addressing the question rather than use an ad hominem attack to belittle someone. Faith based science, which is what it amounts to, is an oxymoron.
FWIW, on Mr. Dzuricky's site https://dzcues.com/ferrules_4.html
He lists Elforyn at 1.9245
Since Elforyn itself lists the density as 1.200 g/cc we can determine Mr Dzuricky's multiplier as 1.60375.
ABS has a published density of 1.04 - 1.07 g/cc
So it "should" land on the chart at 1.6679 to 1.7160
FWIW, natural elephant stuff is 1.72 "ish" g/cc so should land on the chart at 2.7585
More dense even than Ivorine 4
I personally have very large blocks of ABS here as well as rods for general purpose machined plastic parts. I do agree that for whatever personal faith-based prejudice, it has not compelled me to consider it as ferule material.
I have mentioned wanting to try Ultem, though it would fall above 2.03 on Mr Dzuricky's chart.
Sometimes (including the ABS guy) you just have to try it and see.
smt
Thread some, glue em and machine them out and see if they stuck to the threads.
Those who haven't sprayed clear coat on joint and cap material shouldn't even consider them as joint and cap material unless they like lacquer or have had good results in spraying them.
Gluing a T shaped ferrule inside a Carbon Fiber tube is an adventure by itself.
Aren't they melted on?
Can't do that in cue making.
The subject of hardness, toughness, strength, ductility, fatigue, etc. ... what they are and how to test for them, is tricky business and easily confused or misunderstood ... but I recall a lot of fun smashing and crushing things in Materials Lab in 2nd year Engineering
Always experiment and learn, a great way to live IMO.Joey why couldn't you melt (in-place cast) a ferrule onto a cue ? Might be an interesting experiment and learning experience
Dave
Great post sonerai!!!! And you've provided a key data point, the density of elforyn, that will help unravel DZ's list of ferrule materials. I didn't find elforyn's density. So now we have a few published/reliable(?) density figures of materials that appear on DZ's list, and we can more reliably calculate the scaling constant DZ used to convert densities to values appearing on his list. Unfortunately densities of some materials vary, due to additives introduced to modify physical characteristics such as flexibility etc, etc. In my early efforts to unravel this I commented that maple densities clustered around .6 g/cm3, and deduced a scaling value (multiplier) of approximately 1.6 to convert .6 to the value of 1, which DZ assigned maple in his chart. But the more I've studied the more I find maple densities outside of my early, cursory findings. Now I view a 1.6 multiplier is VERY approximate. Seems you're also circling around 1.6. Likewise the density of PVC varies significantly. Anyway, the point is it is difficult to pin down DZ's scaling value with out knowing the density values he utilized for the various materials. When I contacted DZ he didn't address my inquiry about his scaling factor. But he has indicated that he had some math errors, and that his maple sample has dried/is still drying, which necessitates updating of the values in his list. It is becoming clear to me that DZ's list is rough, at best. He realizes that, IMO. I am casting no dispersion on DZ's artistry. He is an accomplished machinist/cuemaker who does such excellent work that when I view it, it makes me just want to give up cuemaking because I realize I'll never match the quality of work obtained from tight, computerized equipment. But that has nothing to do with DZ's list of ferrule materials. He's acknowledged it needs updating and, Sonerai, I think it makes a lot more sense to compile a new list of commonly used ferrule materials based simply on material densities; enough of the smoke and mirror values we can't deconstruct. The more I look at this, I don't believe there is a single scaling value that can reproduce DZ's list today. Seems it's broken; and constructed on shakey foundation; needs MAJOR fix The new list contemplated here could also point to the multiplier which would convert list values so maple has a value of 1 (like on DZ's). But, assigning a value of 1 to maple isn't necessary for one to assess the low deflection rank of ferrule materials. There's no rocket science here. And the value of ABS can appear in that new list. regardless of whether an individual cuemaker deems it worthy as a ferrule material. Its been pointed out in this thread cuemakers have different opinions regarding ABS. It doesn't matter to me, all we're trying to do is rank low deflection. After this post I'll PM Kelly, and ask what is the density of Tomahawk, so it can be accurately placed in this hypothetical list. j2pac referred me to Kelly when I inquired about this. Sonerai, I won't be surprised if when I return home this eve you've already comprised a rudimentary list of ferrule materials based on density. That's what we need, not a list that can't be deconstructed and readily added to, like we have now.It is interesting how defensive some experts get when they are asked technical questions that they don't know how to determine the answer to.
Sure, it might well not be a necessary part of their bag of tricks and expertise to actually make a cue. We all have various means in many fields to determine empirically what works best for ourselves. It is part of our art. OTOH, asking a technical question in any sort of maker forum should never be cause for vitriol. If you don't know, don't bother addressing the question rather than use an ad hominem attack to belittle someone. Faith based science, which is what it amounts to, is an oxymoron.
FWIW, on Mr. Dzuricky's site https://dzcues.com/ferrules_4.html
He lists Elforyn at 1.9245
Since Elforyn itself lists the density as 1.200 g/cc we can determine Mr Dzuricky's multiplier as 1.60375.
ABS has a published density of 1.04 - 1.07 g/cc
So it "should" land on the chart at 1.6679 to 1.7160
FWIW, natural elephant stuff is 1.72 "ish" g/cc so should land on the chart at 2.7585
More dense even than Ivorine 4
I personally have very large blocks of ABS here as well as rods for general purpose machined plastic parts. I do agree that for whatever personal faith-based prejudice, it has not compelled me to consider it as ferule material.
I have mentioned wanting to try Ultem, though it would fall above 2.03 on Mr Dzuricky's chart.
Sometimes (including the ABS guy) you just have to try it and see.
smt
Who cares if its melted on? Are you saying cast ABS has different qualities than rod ABS? That would be useful info, , not what you said. What, no answer?
go melt one on a shaft and let us know how that worked
There was this one time at band camp,
Hahahahaha
Hahahahaha
I feel it.
You and shankster will be great friends.
Standard injection molding I believe
Hydex is now listed in the chart.
FWIW
FWIW
'Faith based science' is a good description of my aiming system. I pray i make it.It is interesting how defensive some experts get when they are asked technical questions that they don't know how to determine the answer to.
Sure, it might well not be a necessary part of their bag of tricks and expertise to actually make a cue. We all have various means in many fields to determine empirically what works best for ourselves. It is part of our art. OTOH, asking a technical question in any sort of maker forum should never be cause for vitriol. If you don't know, don't bother addressing the question rather than use an ad hominem attack to belittle someone. Faith based science, which is what it amounts to, is an oxymoron.
FWIW, on Mr. Dzuricky's site https://dzcues.com/ferrules_4.html
He lists Elforyn at 1.9245
Since Elforyn itself lists the density as 1.200 g/cc we can determine Mr Dzuricky's multiplier as 1.60375.
ABS has a published density of 1.04 - 1.07 g/cc
So it "should" land on the chart at 1.6679 to 1.7160
FWIW, natural elephant stuff is 1.72 "ish" g/cc so should land on the chart at 2.7585
More dense even than Ivorine 4
I personally have very large blocks of ABS here as well as rods for general purpose machined plastic parts. I do agree that for whatever personal faith-based prejudice, it has not compelled me to consider it as ferule material.
I have mentioned wanting to try Ultem, though it would fall above 2.03 on Mr Dzuricky's chart.
Sometimes (including the ABS guy) you just have to try it and see.
smt
I asked him to include that and abs - he said no to abs, and said he'd consider hydex. Did you ask him also, Joey?
Hydex 202 is what I use.
You, Bob D and Jacoby are among the first to use it afaik.
Thanks
maybe if you weren't such a loud mouthed Shankster, Bob would have accommodated you.
FYI, DZ said my request was the first time he'd heard of hydex. Also indicated hydex was so much lighter than Tomahawk that he questioned its strength, durability and resistance to chalk (he meant less dense, not lighter, IMO), and said he might consider adding hydex if he got a sample and could verify its weight (he meant density IMO). Since he added hydex, perhaps someone sent a sample, maybe not. You're not doing yourself any favors, dave.
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