Low deflection rant

cheapcues.com

cheapcues.com

Cue Dealer
Silver Member
OK I have to get this out it's been driving me crazy forever.

Just because shaft is lower deflection does not mean it's the best!

First of all, all these companies claim that their products are the lowest deflection but I've yet to see difinitive evidence, and obvioulsy only one of them can be right. Meucci's video is a JOKE (I can explain why if you wish). I've seen data and graphs from Predator which may be true but until I see results from an independent testing lab there's no way to say who has the lowest deflection. But as you will read next, I really don't care anyway.

Even if a shaft has the least amount of cue ball deflection, you still have to account for it in the shot. You have to account for the cue ball deflection, the swerve and the throw, which are all dependent on the distance between OB and CB, how hard you hit the shot, and where you hit the CB. That accounting can only come with practice, and an LD shaft is no substitute for that.

I'm a big fan of both Predator / Lucasi Hybrid and OB shafts, but it is due the the FEEL, and radial consistency, not the deflection characteristics. For whatever reason I much prefer the feel of those shafts to Schon or Joss or Jacoby or Lucasi's standard shafts. The radial consistency means I don't have to pay attention to the shaft orientation to get CONSISTENT deflection, so I can account for it properly.

About half the people I talk to about LD shafts in my shop don't understand what it means anyway. They think it's referring to the deflection of the CUE, not the cue BALL. I am constantly explaining that little tid bit.

Lastly, smaller is not better! If your shaft has a smaller tip you may reduce deflection, but you will expose inconsistencies in your stroke and impact point on the CB. In golf for the average player it's all about big, forgiving heads with huge sweet spots, and it really shouldn't be different in pool. Bigger is more forgiving. The thinking out there has gotten totally backwards. OK fine, if you play like GOD and you can hit the CB EXACTLY were you mean to every time then get a thinner shaft if it makes you feel better. Although if you're that good you don't need an LD shaft in the first place.....
 
If we follow your golf example. Would you suggest a 15 or 20mm shaft for maximum forgiveness?
 
No but I don't think people in the LD camp would advocate 5mm shafts either. 13ish is comfortable in a closed bridge for most people and seems to be a good size to make the cue ball happy. Around 12 and below funny things start happening in my experience. I tell people if they have really small hands that 13 may be unconfortable and smaller would be better. I place a lot of importance on feel and comfort. I think a lot of people do- all the discussion about how cues "hit".
 
I'd like to hear more about the flaws you find in the Meucci video. On the surface it appears "sensible." [I AM aware that it's viewed with a smirk by many]
 
If ya need a LD shaft, you are hitting too hard.

Just stroke the ball, not poke it. Caress the CB, love it, be gentle with it, never abuse it.

Proper stroke speed will fix alot.
 
It just might be the best for the person or people that are playing with them. You have to have confidence in your equipment, no matter what shaft your using. In my humble opinion there is no question that the technology of the OB shafts can help enhance a players game, just as the larger titanium heads and higher spin rate balls have enhanced everyones golf games. These shafts are better if the user thinks they are better, period. There is a reason that golfer are not still playing with wood heads and rock balls anymore. The top players could beat any of us with those old clubs, but they choose to the the best technology out there. You def right about one thing, the top pool player out there could beat us with a 20mm broom handle, it really wouldnt matter. For the recreational player like most of us we benefit from the LD shaft technology. I will have to differ with you on one point, I think the LD shaft does help with most off center ball hits that most of us ameteur players, just as the larger heads of a driver helps with off center hit as well. Please dont take my opinion as trying to undercut yours, just a humble opinion from a long time LD shaft user. Good post.

FC
 
alls I can tell ya is shortly after I started playing I bought a predator because it was the thing to have (and what they claimed made scence to me).. Thats all I played with for years.. I got my first custiom cue in 2005 promised myself (because I trusted the man that made the cue ) I would try his shafts ( I beleave he does make great shafts to this day ). I played ok ( not that I play much better than that anyway ) but was struggling. as soon as I put my predator on the butt it was night and day, period end of story. I dont need no machine no video.. Does the ball swerve and squirt ? of course, does what you say about getting used to it regardless of shaft hold water, yes it does. does what John Schmidt told me about the subject rap it for me, yes it does " whatever you play with stick with it and dont switch that was the mistake I made ".....
 
Radial consistency is meaningless. Have you EVER seen a pro pay attention to shaft orientation when using regular shafts? Yet they all run out without any problems.

Of amateur players, I've seen maybe 1 player that marked a line on his ferrule and kept it up. Even the players that bought Meucci red or black dot shafts wouldn't pay any attention to the dot's orientation, after its novelty wore off.

I believe Dr Dave even tested this, and showed that the radial orientation had no impact on the outcome of the shot. I may be wrong, but I think he even did the test on a flat laminated shaft, which would theoretically be the worst offender.
 
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Never Played with a LD Shaft

Been playing for 50 yrs. Most of the time I don't worry about which way my shaft is turned, but when I have a particularly difficult or important shot, I do make sure my shaft is turned the way I feel gives me the best chances of making the shot. Good topic. I think the OP has a valid point or 2.
 
cheapcues...A couple of things here that you misunderstand. First, the size of the tip doesn't change the size of the contact point between CB and cuetip...it remains at about 3mm or 1/8". Even when you shoot hard, and there's a big blue chalk mark on the CB, that's just chalk dust blowing back off of the tip...contact size remains pretty consistent. It also doesn't matter if you strike the edge of the tip or the center of the tip...contact size remains pretty consistent. It also doesn't change with different curvatures on the tip (nickle vs. dime for example).

Second...In your discussions with your customers, you'll do them a favor if you differentiate deflection and squirt. They mean the same thing, but to help our students understand the difference, we use the term "deflection" to designate cue stick movement, and "squirt" to designate CB movement. It's much easier for the layperson to understand the concepts that way (although technically they are both deflection). Hope this helps...:grin:

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

cheapcues.com said:
OK I have to get this out it's been driving me crazy forever.

Just because shaft is lower deflection does not mean it's the best!

First of all, all these companies claim that their products are the lowest deflection but I've yet to see difinitive evidence, and obvioulsy only one of them can be right. Meucci's video is a JOKE (I can explain why if you wish). I've seen data and graphs from Predator which may be true but until I see results from an independent testing lab there's no way to say who has the lowest deflection. But as you will read next, I really don't care anyway.

Even if a shaft has the least amount of cue ball deflection, you still have to account for it in the shot. You have to account for the cue ball deflection, the swerve and the throw, which are all dependent on the distance between OB and CB, how hard you hit the shot, and where you hit the CB. That accounting can only come with practice, and an LD shaft is no substitute for that.

I'm a big fan of both Predator / Lucasi Hybrid and OB shafts, but it is due the the FEEL, and radial consistency, not the deflection characteristics. For whatever reason I much prefer the feel of those shafts to Schon or Joss or Jacoby or Lucasi's standard shafts. The radial consistency means I don't have to pay attention to the shaft orientation to get CONSISTENT deflection, so I can account for it properly.

About half the people I talk to about LD shafts in my shop don't understand what it means anyway. They think it's referring to the deflection of the CUE, not the cue BALL. I am constantly explaining that little tid bit.

Lastly, smaller is not better! If your shaft has a smaller tip you may reduce deflection, but you will expose inconsistencies in your stroke and impact point on the CB. In golf for the average player it's all about big, forgiving heads with huge sweet spots, and it really shouldn't be different in pool. Bigger is more forgiving. The thinking out there has gotten totally backwards. OK fine, if you play like GOD and you can hit the CB EXACTLY were you mean to every time then get a thinner shaft if it makes you feel better. Although if you're that good you don't need an LD shaft in the first place.....
Click to expand...
 
Scott Lee said:
cheapcues...A couple of things here that you misunderstand. First, the size of the tip doesn't change the size of the contact point between CB and cuetip...it remains at about 3mm or 1/8". Even when you shoot hard, and there's a big blue chalk mark on the CB, that's just chalk dust blowing back off of the tip...contact size remains pretty consistent. It also doesn't matter if you strike the edge of the tip or the center of the tip...contact size remains pretty consistent. It also doesn't change with different curvatures on the tip (nickle vs. dime for example).

Second...In your discussions with your customers, you'll do them a favor if you differentiate deflection and squirt. They mean the same thing, but to help our students understand the difference, we use the term "deflection" to designate cue stick movement, and "squirt" to designate CB movement. It's much easier for the layperson to understand the concepts that way (although technically they are both deflection). Hope this helps...:grin:

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...

Thanks Scott. That's some really good info. Seems like I learn something new everyday on this forum.
 
I'm a big fan of both Predator / Lucasi Hybrid and OB shafts, but it is due the the FEEL, and radial consistency, not the deflection characteristics. For whatever reason I much prefer the feel of those shafts to Schon or Joss or Jacoby or Lucasi's standard shafts. The radial consistency means I don't have to pay attention to the shaft orientation to get CONSISTENT deflection, so I can account for it properly.
Click to expand...
How can 8-pieces of differing laminates have more radial consistency ?
How can a hollowed out shaft feel better ?

You can spin the shaft anywhere you want, it will still have the same end-weight and flexibility.
 
My concern is lack of deflection regarding the LD rant. When you have less squirt you have more swerve. Well not more but it appears that way since it squirts less.

Rod
 
Not a user of LD shafts but theoretically I think its the best option for someone's game. Lower deflection = less margin of error, and leading to a more consistent game.

However, I don't think the different will be that much, depending on the person. Rarely do I find myself needing to use English that are so extreme that I will have to account for a great deal of deflection.

I read in a Taiwanese pool book that there is a small area just below center ball, and about one tip to each side, that produces little noticeable deflection. I use that technique on a lot of shots because it is so consistent. If you want the article, let me know.

I do think that people are making too big of a deal on these shafts. But to a certain extent, it should improve your game theoretically.
 
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