Low Deflection Shaft for Beginner

[eldowan]

I find that it is more beneficial to not use LD shafts. To me, LD shafts are totally not necessary. It is possible, very possible to learn to play excellent pool without the aid of technology. I am a fairly serious player, however, and I have over 20+ years of experience.

I agree that LD shafts are not necessary. Neither is using a jump cue, or swerving the cue ball around an obsticle. This does not mean, however, that they have no benefit.

What you have to ask yourself is what kind of player do you want to be? Do you want to be the kind of player that aims for the pro tour? or, are you a one pocket player? are you a young person? or older? what kind of knowledge do you have?

I do not understand what this has to do with anything. We have seen the greats of the past, before there were anything but regular maple shafts, play outstanding pool. We have also seen people of that time play like total crap. The same holds true with LD shafts today. There are Great players on the scene that hold only the ancient magic of the 'true maple' shaft. And there are Great players who swear by LD shafts.

But I cannot for the life of me figure out what your goals as a player have to do with what technology your shaft uses. Why should a one pocket player play with a different kind of shaft than a 9 ball shooter or a straight pool player?

Why would someone's age determine what they play with?

For that matter, what does knowledge have to do with anything either?


Now I'm not saying that experience doesn't factor into it. Once you've spent a lifetime playing with a certain technology (You've spent more time on the table playing with maple shafts than some shooters have been alive), I can completely understand sticking to your guns and what you know. But why color the view of a fresh, new mind against something that does no harm?

You can teach yourself to adjust quite well to normal shafts which, then you will have the ability to easily to adjust to a LD shaft if you wanted to go that way, but will have a hard time re-adjusting if going from LD to regular.

I do not have a hard time re-adjusting from LD to regular maple. I have, and play, with both regularly, as well as a house cue when I don't have my case with me.

By no means am I a great player, nor do I make myself out to be one.



That said, I do want to clearly state that I am not trying to be inflamitory or insulting. I respectfully disagree with your opinions at the moment, and will welcome with all due respect anything that can expand on what you've previously written.

 

[SK Custom Cues]

In my pool hall, there are many guys who have a one pocket cue, and another set of cues for nineball (playing and breaking). For those guys who play golf on the snooker table, they like playing with a certain type of cue.

There are also guys to play off the wall. There are many different types of people who like many different things. The more the OP can tell me about himself will help me educate him on the direction of his choice.

There are so many factors in choosing the right cue for you. The more you know, the better informed a decision you can make.

All I can say is that I've been around, and I am also a teacher so I look at things not just on a black and white spectrum, or just a pool based spectrum, but a life based perspective.

 

[Scott Lee]

As an instructor, I'll weigh in here, with my opinion. I've been playing, and teaching, for well over 30 years. I've had many cues, of all grades, including very expensive custom cues, collectable cues (like Balabushka and Szamboti), and ordinary cues. Until this year, I have NEVER liked any kind of so-called 'high performance' shafts. I can't stand Predator, and I didn't care for OB (although both are fine quality instruments). I shot with the McDermott I-shafts for awhile, but wasn't impressed with them either. Nothing performed better, for me, than the shafts that came with my cues (that could have been my own perception).

Last March, Jerry Powers (Jerico Cues/inventor of the Stinger), who had been hired as a consultant, by McDermott (to re-manufacture their LD shafts, under his direction), was at Valley Forge, in the McDermott booth. Jerry asked me to try one of the new G-Core shafts, and give him my honest opinion...good, bad, or indifferent. I told him that I would play with it for 100 hours, and report back. After playing with the shaft (this is the 11.75mm variety), for 20 hours...I hated it! LOL It may have been pre-conceived, since I knew I did not like these kinds of shafts (ESPECIALLY a 'skinny' shaft). However, I made a promise to give it a 100 hr test...so I continued to play with the G-Core shaft (G-Core stands for graphite core...there's a graphite rod down the middle of the entire length of the shaft). Not only did I complete the 100 hrs, but now have almost 200 hrs.

Guess what? I LOVE this shaft! Yep, that's right, I became a convert. The shaft is almost voodoo for me, as it seems like I make ZERO aiming adjustment, when applying sidespin...regardless of how near or far I aim from the vertical axis (which seems impossible); regardless of how close or far the shot is, from the CB; regardless of how soft or hard I shoot the shot. I have been making the shot Okinawa 77 put up (Joe Tucker's site), easily, making no adjustment in my aim (I could not do this with my other shafts...I could make the adjustment, and make the shot, but not without making a correction in my aim).

So, in context with this thread, I'm going to have to go with giving the shaft to any player, new or experienced...as a tool to improve their shotmaking, with or without english. BTW, the G-Core is much less $$$ than either of the other two I mentioned.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

 

[Rich93]

As an instructor, I'll weigh in here, with my opinion. I've been playing, and teaching, for well over 30 years. I've had many cues, of all grades, including very expensive custom cues, collectable cues (like Balabushka and Szamboti), and ordinary cues. Until this year, I have NEVER liked any kind of so-called 'high performance' shafts. I can't stand Predator, and I didn't care for OB (although both are fine quality instruments). I shot with the McDermott I-shafts for awhile, but wasn't impressed with them either. Nothing performed better, for me, than the shafts that came with my cues (that could have been my own perception).

Last March, Jerry Powers (Jerico Cues/inventor of the Stinger), who had been hired as a consultant, by McDermott (to re-manufacture their LD shafts, under his direction), was at Valley Forge, in the McDermott booth. Jerry asked me to try one of the new G-Core shafts, and give him my honest opinion...good, bad, or indifferent. I told him that I would play with it for 100 hours, and report back. After playing with the shaft (this is the 11.75mm variety), for 20 hours...I hated it! LOL It may have been pre-conceived, since I knew I did not like these kinds of shafts (ESPECIALLY a 'skinny' shaft). However, I made a promise to give it a 100 hr test...so I continued to play with the G-Core shaft (G-Core stands for graphite core...there's a graphite rod down the middle of the entire length of the shaft). Not only did I complete the 100 hrs, but now have almost 200 hrs.

Guess what? I LOVE this shaft! Yep, that's right, I became a convert. The shaft is almost voodoo for me, as it seems like I make ZERO aiming adjustment, when applying sidespin...regardless of how near or far I aim from the vertical axis (which seems impossible); regardless of how close or far the shot is, from the CB; regardless of how soft or hard I shoot the shot. I have been making the shot Okinawa 77 put up (Joe Tucker's site), easily, making no adjustment in my aim (I could not do this with my other shafts...I could make the adjustment, and make the shot, but not without making a correction in my aim).

So, in context with this thread, I'm going to have to go with giving the shaft to any player, new or experienced...as a tool to improve their shotmaking, with or without english. BTW, the G-Core is much less $$$ than either of the other two I mentioned.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Hmmm. I was watching when you were talking to Jerry. I remember him saying:

"I want you to focus your eyes on this shaft. Your eyes are getting heavy. You are falling into a deep sleep. You are now asleep. You are going to play with this shaft and slowly learn to love it. It will be the best shaft you ever played with. Now, when I count three, you will awake refreshed and remember nothing. 1, 2, 3"

Damndest thing I ever saw.:wink:

 

[ShootingArts]

I wonder if it would have been the same with the other LD shafts?

Scott,

I wonder if it would have been the same with the other low deflection shafts had you stayed with one of them for 100 hours straight? When I quit playing with house cues every time I made a major change it took months for me to play my best again. I started playing decent much sooner but I'm talking the same level of consistent ball control.

When I went to a snooker cue to play pool everything about my aim was off a ton on many shots. That tiny shaft was pretty much the ultimate LD shaft. It took several weeks of play to start making some headway but ultimately I found the super lightweight snooker cue with the tiny shaft and milk dud to be the ultimate cue for cue ball control playing pool.

Some of us are more sensitive to equipment than others and changes are far more noticeable, some are less sensitive to change. In many ways I was a better player when I could play off the wall in any place I walked into. Now I want the equipment to conform to me instead of me adapting to the equipment.

Hu

As an instructor, I'll weigh in here, with my opinion. I've been playing, and teaching, for well over 30 years. I've had many cues, of all grades, including very expensive custom cues, collectable cues (like Balabushka and Szamboti), and ordinary cues. Until this year, I have NEVER liked any kind of so-called 'high performance' shafts. I can't stand Predator, and I didn't care for OB (although both are fine quality instruments). I shot with the McDermott I-shafts for awhile, but wasn't impressed with them either. Nothing performed better, for me, than the shafts that came with my cues (that could have been my own perception).

Last March, Jerry Powers (Jerico Cues/inventor of the Stinger), who had been hired as a consultant, by McDermott (to re-manufacture their LD shafts, under his direction), was at Valley Forge, in the McDermott booth. Jerry asked me to try one of the new G-Core shafts, and give him my honest opinion...good, bad, or indifferent. I told him that I would play with it for 100 hours, and report back. After playing with the shaft (this is the 11.75mm variety), for 20 hours...I hated it! LOL It may have been pre-conceived, since I knew I did not like these kinds of shafts (ESPECIALLY a 'skinny' shaft). However, I made a promise to give it a 100 hr test...so I continued to play with the G-Core shaft (G-Core stands for graphite core...there's a graphite rod down the middle of the entire length of the shaft). Not only did I complete the 100 hrs, but now have almost 200 hrs.

Guess what? I LOVE this shaft! Yep, that's right, I became a convert. The shaft is almost voodoo for me, as it seems like I make ZERO aiming adjustment, when applying sidespin...regardless of how near or far I aim from the vertical axis (which seems impossible); regardless of how close or far the shot is, from the CB; regardless of how soft or hard I shoot the shot. I have been making the shot Okinawa 77 put up (Joe Tucker's site), easily, making no adjustment in my aim (I could not do this with my other shafts...I could make the adjustment, and make the shot, but not without making a correction in my aim).

So, in context with this thread, I'm going to have to go with giving the shaft to any player, new or experienced...as a tool to improve their shotmaking, with or without english. BTW, the G-Core is much less $$$ than either of the other two I mentioned.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

 

[Patrick Johnson]

"At first I hated it, but now I wouldn't shoot with anything else."

This is the most common report for any kind of shaft, low or high squirt, from every player who takes the time to get accustomed to something new. We love what we play with and hate everything else.

This suggests familiarity is the most important thing, and that suggests any cue can become "the best" for a player. So if there's an objective advantage in one cue over another (low squirt vs. high squirt, for instance), it would be best for any player to get used to it.

What we need is some objective testing to see if low squirt cues actually improve shotmaking for the same players once they get used to it. It would have to be longtime players so we could eliminate natural improvement over time as a factor.

pj
chgo

 

[randyg]

As an instructor, I'll weigh in here, with my opinion. I've been playing, and teaching, for well over 30 years. I've had many cues, of all grades, including very expensive custom cues, collectable cues (like Balabushka and Szamboti), and ordinary cues. Until this year, I have NEVER liked any kind of so-called 'high performance' shafts. I can't stand Predator, and I didn't care for OB (although both are fine quality instruments). I shot with the McDermott I-shafts for awhile, but wasn't impressed with them either. Nothing performed better, for me, than the shafts that came with my cues (that could have been my own perception).

Last March, Jerry Powers (Jerico Cues/inventor of the Stinger), who had been hired as a consultant, by McDermott (to re-manufacture their LD shafts, under his direction), was at Valley Forge, in the McDermott booth. Jerry asked me to try one of the new G-Core shafts, and give him my honest opinion...good, bad, or indifferent. I told him that I would play with it for 100 hours, and report back. After playing with the shaft (this is the 11.75mm variety), for 20 hours...I hated it! LOL It may have been pre-conceived, since I knew I did not like these kinds of shafts (ESPECIALLY a 'skinny' shaft). However, I made a promise to give it a 100 hr test...so I continued to play with the G-Core shaft (G-Core stands for graphite core...there's a graphite rod down the middle of the entire length of the shaft). Not only did I complete the 100 hrs, but now have almost 200 hrs.

Guess what? I LOVE this shaft! Yep, that's right, I became a convert. The shaft is almost voodoo for me, as it seems like I make ZERO aiming adjustment, when applying sidespin...regardless of how near or far I aim from the vertical axis (which seems impossible); regardless of how close or far the shot is, from the CB; regardless of how soft or hard I shoot the shot. I have been making the shot Okinawa 77 put up (Joe Tucker's site), easily, making no adjustment in my aim (I could not do this with my other shafts...I could make the adjustment, and make the shot, but not without making a correction in my aim).

So, in context with this thread, I'm going to have to go with giving the shaft to any player, new or experienced...as a tool to improve their shotmaking, with or without english. BTW, the G-Core is much less $$$ than either of the other two I mentioned.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

"We have to give the medicine time to heal"

 

[Scott Lee]

Rich93...LMAO! :grin: Whatever it was...it worked! Next time, introduce yourself!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Hmmm. I was watching when you were talking to Jerry. I remember him saying:

"I want you to focus your eyes on this shaft. Your eyes are getting heavy. You are falling into a deep sleep. You are now asleep. You are going to play with this shaft and slowly learn to love it. It will be the best shaft you ever played with. Now, when I count three, you will awake refreshed and remember nothing. 1, 2, 3"

Damndest thing I ever saw.:wink:

 

[dr_dave]

If people want more info on this stuff, I have links to numerous articles and video demonstrations here:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/aiming.html#compensation​

Regards,
Dave

BHE = back hand english = setting up for a centerball hit then moving the grip hand (back hand) sideways to apply english and compensate for squirt/swerve at the same time. Works best with higher squirt cues where the "pivot point" is somewhere near the bridge. An approximation that must be fine-tuned by feel.

FHE = front hand english = setting up for a centerball hit then moving the bridge hand (front hand) sideways to apply english and compensate for squirt/swerve at the same time. Works best with lower squirt cues where the "pivot point" is substantially behind the bridge. An approximation that must be fine-tuned by feel.

Parallel English = a bad name ("parallel" doesn't really apply) for simply placing both hands as necessary to apply english and compensate for squirt/swerve. Works with any cue, but is done entirely by feel and can be more of a challenge for some players without the initial approximation provided by BHE or FHE.

All of these are different ways of getting your cue to the same position. Only one cue position will produce the exact shot and spin you want.

pj
chgo

 

[dr_dave]

Cueballs squirt, shafts deflect

A low-squirt shaft creates less ("low") cue-ball squirt but results in large ("high") cue deflection (because the end of the shaft is lighter and usually more flexible ... so it deflects away from the CB more with an off-center hit). So a "low"-deflection shaft actually has "high" deflection!!!

This is why I and others prefer the term: "low-squirt shaft" because it results in less CB squirt. A "low"-deflection shaft has low CB deflection, but high cue deflection. Also, what the shaft is doing (deflecting) is not important. What the CB is doing is what counts ... right? The CB squirts less with a low-squirt shaft.

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

What we need is some objective testing to see if low squirt cues actually improve shotmaking for the same players once they get used to it. It would have to be longtime players so we could eliminate natural improvement over time as a factor.

I don't have test results as you suggest, but I do have arguments backed up by numbers and logic here:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/cue.html#low_squirt​

Regards,
Dave

 

[Big Perm]

IMHO, a beginner should start with a house cue and learn to appreciate the game....beginners also should be working on their stroke, starting with simple middle ball hits.....when then can get this down, without unintended sidespin, then they can play with draw and follow....and once they get this down, they can move on....a true beginner doesn't need $100 cue, much less a $100 shaft....

Once they get some of the basics down and they can run a few balls and they know they want to stick with the game, then they can research shafts and cues and buy whatever they like....

My two cents...

 

[catscradle]

For somebody just getting into the game of pool, would switching from a regular maple shaft to a low deflection shaft(p314/ob1 etc) make much of a difference? Would a beginner even notice a difference in a ld shaft?

If you're truly a beginner you shouldn't be using much english and you probably shouldn't notice much, if any, difference between a normal shaft and an ld shaft.
If you don't already own one don't buy one yet. Maybe never buy one, I had a predator and went back to a standard shaft.

 

[Perk]

I dont have an opinion directly either way regarding LD shaft or standard maple. However last few times I have been in poolhalls or tournaments where there are some junior champions running around, they all seem to have an expensive solid hitting cue, most of which are LD. Coincidence?

 

[dr_dave]

If you're truly a beginner you shouldn't be using much english and you probably shouldn't notice much, if any, difference between a normal shaft and an ld shaft.

But sometimes beginners (and even some intermediate players) apply English unintentionally because they don't always align the tip at the center of the CB. In this case, a lower-squirt shaft could help (with certain types of shots).

Regards,
Dave

 

[Patrick Johnson]

a beginner should start with a house cue and learn to appreciate the game...

A beginner can't learn to "appreciate the game" with a low squirt cue?

pj
chgo

 

[conetip]

If a beginer buys a hightech high performing cue from the start, learns good stance and developes a great stroke, there is no stopping them.
The idea of just get something then relearn again I think is a fellacy.
It would be like just buy realy cheap golf clubs and then relearn again when you get the good ones.
Save your money , buy 1 good play cue, get a good tip on it and learn to play.
It does not matter which way you go as far as high tech cues. Tiger, Cuetech,OB,even one of my cues,They are all good cues that perform well and will last for years.
The high tech cues make drawing a cueball easier for the beginner.
Pro players can win a game with any cue,It just takes them time to adjust and to learn the limits of what they can and can't easily do with that cue.
Neil

 

[bigruss]

Some interesting points, thanks for the input.

If nothing else I need to get my hands on one to borrow to see how it feels.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

The high tech cues make drawing a cueball easier for the beginner.

No they don't. All decent cues spin the cue ball pretty much the same.

pj
chgo

 

[eldowan]

In my pool hall, there are many guys who have a one pocket cue, and another set of cues for nineball (playing and breaking). For those guys who play golf on the snooker table, they like playing with a certain type of cue.

There are also guys to play off the wall. There are many different types of people who like many different things. The more the OP can tell me about himself will help me educate him on the direction of his choice.

There are so many factors in choosing the right cue for you. The more you know, the better informed a decision you can make.

All I can say is that I've been around, and I am also a teacher so I look at things not just on a black and white spectrum, or just a pool based spectrum, but a life based perspective.

Thanks for the elaboration, It's given me quite a few things to [re]think over.