Low deflection shafts and higher end custom cues

softshot said:
balls squirt shafts deflect so squirt is not a cue characteristic..
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LOL. That leaves none.

...I speculate that the pivot point is related to sine wave reverberation aka hit.
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I think there might be something to that (the vibrations might determine how much of the shaft's length is "involved" in the "end mass").

Notice that we're still talking about squirt/deflection. Where are the other performance characteristics?

I believe it is possible to manipulate that point to an extent utilizing taper and wood quality..
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I'm sure it's possible to manipulate the vibrational qualities of the cue, but it's still speculation that it has anything to do with the pivot point and if so I'll bet it's a small effect. Anyway, it would be interesting to measure cues' vibrations along with their end masses and pivot points.

pj
chgo
 
I was shooting with someone last night that was using a Mottey cue. I asked what shaft he used and he mentioned "a high deflection one because LD shafts feel weird". Another guy who I play a couple of games with from time to time mentioned he tried a couple of LD shafts, but eventually when back to a maple shaft because the LD shafts were too whippy. I remember hitting a 314-2 on a Lucasi and remember I didn't like the hallow hit. Not so with my Hercek or Gilbert cue with a 314. I also tried out someone's break cue that had a "ping" sound to it when I broke. I also didn't like that or the thud I felt when the tip hit the cue.

You guys are right though. I just have to keep on shooting and see what I feel most comfortable with.
 
No Limit said:
You guys are right though. I just have to keep on shooting and see what I feel most comfortable with.
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You are exactly right. Hit with as many shafts/cue combinations that you can. Find what works for you and stick with it. I have 314's made up for all my custom cues, whether its a $300 or a $6000 cue.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
That's squirt.


You haven't named a performance characteristic.


These are valid but easily compensated for.


Not true.


Not true.


Every shot with sidespin is "a single obscure shot type"? LOL.

pj
chgo
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it probably is for softshot he is so good he doesnt need any spin of any kind any time just one center ball hit till the next untill he makes his 2 in a row
 
dr_dave said:
"Feel," "hit," and "playability" are all qualitative attributes for which the interpretation can vary a great deal from one person to the next. FYI, I have a resource page explaining some of the factors here:
Check it out.

I think the hardness of the tip is the probably the single most important factors in determining the "hit" or "feel" of the cue.

Regards,
Dave
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i whole heartedly agree with this and then the joint
 
I believe to put a Predator on a 2000.00 or 50,000 cue is fine.I know people say just buy a Predator cue,which is fine but there's just more to it.Anything in life including pool starts with a great foundation and balance,hence the butt of a pool cue, with a solid construction ,balance,sound ,pin and overall feel will make the cue with or without a Predator hit that much better with any shaft.If you like the hit of a Predator and it suits your style,then putting it on that Hereck butt will only make it play even better for you.My opinion is you've got the proper foundation,any shaft you really love ,use it!!:smile:Goodluck
 
dr_dave said:
The natural pivot length of a cue is certainly a measurable and well-defined shaft characteristic. And it is directly related to the end mass of the shaft. It is also directly related to the amount of squirt (cue ball deflection) the shaft produces.
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I don't know if that is entirely true.. if end mass is the only game in town why are the best cues still made of maple?

there are bound to be dozens of lower mass options just in the "wood" category alone..

dr_dave said:
I think the transverse vibration that in part define the "hit" of a cue are more related to shaft stiffness. Endmass can be affected by stiffness, but endmass can also be changed independent of stiffness. For more info, see:
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I don't believe it is merely coincidence.. that Efren's Shaft, the necks of Eddie Van Halen's guitar, Yo Yo Ma's chello, and a stradivarious violin are all made from solid maple..

the shaft of a cue and the necks of the instruments are not there for outward sound.. they are crafted and chosen for the vibration felt by the master as he plays..

It's not an accident.
 
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softshot said:
...if end mass is the only game in town why are the best cues still made of maple?
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Virtually all shafts are made of maple, from the best to the worst quality and from the lowest to the highest squirt. But low squirt shafts are thin, hollow or both, so they have less maple near the tip.

there are bound to be dozens of lower mass options just in the "wood" category alone..
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Make that the "non-brittle hardwood" category and the differences are narrowed down dramatically.

I don't believe it is merely coincidence.. that Efren's Shaft, the necks of Eddie Van Halen's guitar, Yo Yo Ma's chello, and a stradivarious violin are all made from solid maple..
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I have to admit I never thought of it that way. Spooky.

It's not an accident.
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You're creeping me out, man.

pj
chgo
 
No Limit said:
What's your opinion with using a low deflection shaft like a Predator 314-2 on a $2000+ cue? I recently bought a Hercek cue and was thinking about whether to get a Predator shaft fitted to it or not. Are the shafts that came with the cue better to shoot with since they were made specifically for the cue butt?
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If you have been playing with a Predator 314-2 then you might want to invest in one for your $2,000.00+ cue unless the shaft that comes with that cue performs like a 314-2. If not, then you will have an adjustment period to adjust to the difference.
 
hmmmm

Maniac said:
.If the OP wants to put an aftermarket shaft on his Hercek, who gives a fat-rat's-a** about it? Damn, there's some touchy-a**ed people on this forum :rolleyes: You'd think someone blasphemed God or somethin'.

Maniac
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Well, they kinda did, so if Balabushka was God, I'm assuming Hercek must be Jesus ?

And I'm not just saying that because I've been on Hercek's waiting list going on 7 years now and that I know Hercek reads AZB...that has nothing to do with my comments, really :grin:

But if he decided to "bump" me up the list, I will call him anything he wants !!
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Virtually all shafts are made of maple, from the best to the worst quality and from the lowest to the highest squirt. But low squirt shafts are thin, hollow or both, so they have less maple near the tip.
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and all solid maple shafts regardless of quality have a natural pivot point that negates squirt and allows the shaft to function at every task that a pool cue should without compromising the long term structural integrity of the shaft..

Make that the "non-brittle hardwood" category and the differences {options?}are narrowed down dramatically.
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why limit it to wood?.. now your options skyrocket..

hypothetical question.. Imagine a hollow shaft constructed of carbon nano tubes thick enough that it does not deform AT ALL at impact..ultimate stiffness

any weight added for play-ability would not extend into the final 10 inches of the shaft.. nearly mass-less "end mass".. the weight of the tip would be a large part of the end mass of this cue..

what would the squirt characteristics of this cue be?

I think that end mass only plays a part in the big picture. I speculate that shaft stiffness and tonal harmonics are both at least equal to end mass in the grand scheme.. and I wouldn't be surprised to find that there are factors yet to be discovered.

regardless hollow plywood isn't the be all end all of shaft development
 
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i saw a post earlier in this forum that state ....Taiwan coaches not allow their student play with a LD shaft...anyone know this matter or this is just some bullshit...i make a thread in this forum to ask a Taiwan member here to put some truth on this statement and yet not find a satisfied answer...that what make Predator and Mezz can not have a good selling in Taiwan..

sorry...i don't have an intention to hijack the OP thread...but i find this matter have an impact to the OP thread....

Best:smile:
 
softshot said:
pivot point and how it relates to your natural bridge

if they match up exactly. you get zero squirt. I learned that from your buddy Mike Page. you are even mentioned in the video I learned it from.

pro players use negative squirt no squirt and positive squirt and adjust, for those thin cuts or extreme English, you can shoot them beyond the pivot point (long bridge) to offset the natural under cut, and learn to shoot & aim with short bridge (positive squirt) especially near rail or don't have comfortable zero squirt bridge.
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softshot said:
pivot point, 1 piece vs 2 piece. and how it relates to the travel of the sine wave reverberation aka "hit".

LD "performance" is crap when it comes to jumping, and Masse.

Power breaking with an LD shaft is a BAD Idea..

the ONLY place where LD even comes into play are extra long shots with a ton of sidespin.. and if those shots are a major part of your game.. then some lessons on basic CB control might be in order..

LD is a gimmick and it's never been anything else.

I want a cue that I can play pool with not one narrowed down for a single obscure shot type and then marketed until it's taken as a fact by people who should KNOW better.

I don't think Joe Blows game jumped any higher when he switched to LD.. I think the marketing has him scared it will drop off if he goes back to quality maple..and that is why he defends it so vigorously.
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Wow...just took this thread back 100 years. This seriously sounds totally ridiculous. I guarantee that what you say is 100% false as pertains to me. If you truly believe that LD is a "gimmick", you are really exposing a high level of ignorance about what a LD shaft does, and how it works. Bad for a break cue? So all those people with the BK2 are wrong? Hard to take your post seriously....


KMRUNOUT
 
KMRUNOUT said:
Wow...just took this thread back 100 years. This seriously sounds totally ridiculous. I guarantee that what you say is 100% false as pertains to me. If you truly believe that LD is a "gimmick", you are really exposing a high level of ignorance about what a LD shaft does, and how it works. Bad for a break cue? So all those people with the BK2 are wrong? Hard to take your post seriously....


KMRUNOUT
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I don't think someone can claim LD is, without doubt, a step forward. Perhaps it's just a step in another direction. And certainly for many players that are accustomed to the non-LD shafts they're better off than trying to transition.

Lou Figueroa
 
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lfigueroa said:
I don't think someone can claim LD is, without doubt, a step forward. Perhaps it's just a step in another direction. And certainly for many players that are accustomed to the non-LD shafts they're better off than trying to transition.

Lou Figueroa
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Fair enough, but claiming it is just a gimmick (which implies that the supposed differences *do not really exist*) is just plain silly. There *IS* a difference. That difference may or may not contribute positively to a given persons game. Such a person would be wise to use that type of shaft that works best for them, regardless of what butt they are using. How does this thread get beyond that?

KMRUNOUT
 
softshot said:
hypothetical question.. Imagine a hollow shaft constructed of carbon nano tubes thick enough that it does not deform AT ALL at impact..ultimate stiffness

any weight added for play-ability would not extend into the final 10 inches of the shaft.. nearly mass-less "end mass".. the weight of the tip would be a large part of the end mass of this cue..

what would the squirt characteristics of this cue be?
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"Endmass" depends on stiffness. Because this hypothetical shaft would be extremely stiff, the "endmass" would include a much greater length of the cue, maybe even the entire length (and full weight). I suspect the amount of squirt would be ridiculous, assuming the cue has a usable weight. For more info, see the 2nd paragraph here:

Regards,
Dave
 
KMRUNOUT said:
Fair enough, but claiming it is just a gimmick (which implies that the supposed differences *do not really exist*) is just plain silly. There *IS* a difference. That difference may or may not contribute positively to a given persons game. Such a person would be wise to use that type of shaft that works best for them, regardless of what butt they are using. How does this thread get beyond that?

KMRUNOUT
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Oh, absolutely -- there most certainly is a difference.

As far as getting any further along all I can say is that folks should try both and decide for themselves. It seems that many of the guys that started out using traditional shafts have tried LD shafts and many have gone back. Similarly, I think the LD users would be wise to give traditional shafts *particularly: well-aged, four ounce plus, ivory ferruled shafts* a go before they get their LD tattoo.

IOW, try it, you might like it.

Lou Figueroa
 
I've played with both and prefer solid maple. However, the difference isn't as great some have stated. That said, I believe LD is suited more for 9-ball. Deflection allows for creativity needed in other games like one-pocket, 14.1, banks, etc.

Of course, this my opinion only. Your results may vary. :thumbup:
 
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