low deflection shafts

BogeyFree said:
Ok so here's my take on "low deflection" shafts. I think they're an over hyped farce. And I think that Dominic Esposito is even more of a farce. To see him promote Predator shafts at the big billiards events and telling and convincing mediocre players that their game will improve dramatically with the purchase of one of his shafts is a travesty. His demonstrations are a joke because he doesn't hit balls with his Predator shafts the same identical way he'll hit a ball with your shaft and I've called him out on it. Most of the demo shots he misses anyway and always is ready with an excuse for why he missed. In addition to that let's be honest - in playing on a 7' table where most of your shots are short and easily hit stop shots it doesn't matter what kind of shaft you use. I cringe every time I see a lower skilled player pull his/her wallet out and buy a new Predator shaft from him thinking that their game is going to immediately raise by leaps and bounds. It won't. Lower skilled players miss shots not because of the shaft but because their aim is off. They'll miss long cut shots no matter what shaft they use. It's a simple as that. But hey that's just my opinion.
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What amount of improvement would justify a $200 expense? 1%? 5%? 10%? When I was about an APA 6 I played with a Samsara cue with a standard maple shaft. I didn't use much english because I was afraid I'd miss. As a consequence, my position game was somewhat limited. I hated the feel of Predator shafts...hollow and dead. However, I finally tried one for like the 5th time, and for some reason liked it. I found the learning curve to be almost non-existent, because I really didn't have a very great "english" game with my standard shaft. At that time I had been playing for about 6 -8 years. Very quickly my game went up. Of course I was practicing anyway, and would have improved anyway. But I made a pretty big jump once I gained the ability to use enough english, especially at longer distances, and not have to be so afraid of missing the ball. The money I spent on the shaft was well worth it. Easily paid for itself with tournament winnings.

The fact is there is a *difference* between what happens to the cueball when it is hit with LD shaft or a regular shaft when english is used. The fact is the cueball will squirt less with a LD shaft. The fact is, this means that by *definition* a LD shaft is more accurate than a not LD shaft. The fact is, the precision of the shooter will not be increased by any shaft. My opinion is that it is easier to learn with a more accurate tool. I would therefore conclude that your statement about "they would miss the ball no matter what shaft they use" is hyperbole, and also false. You are of course entitled to your own opinion, whether it contradicts facts and logic or not.

Why, oh why, do all these pro players buy into the hype? Why would they waste their time with LD shafts when they could play with standard maple? Any ideas? And don't bother arguing that they are sponsored. There are LOTS of pros who are not sponsored by a shaft company and still use that shaft. Heck, there are pros sponsored by one company that prefer (and occasionally use) products from another company. If its just hype, wouldn't the pros of all people catch on pretty quickly?

KMRUNOUT
 
I'm with KMR on this. After my first year or two of play, I got a Z2 and after a short transition period I really did enjoy it. A handful of years later, I was starting to get more accustomed to a standard shaft. Who knows.. maybe in a few years I'll be back to the LD.

Roger Long said:
Low deflection shafts do not make enough difference to justify their high costs.
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Have you seen the WFS section lately? $200 for anything is a bargain.
 
KMRUNOUT said:
What amount of improvement would justify a $200 expense? 1%? 5%? 10%? When I was about an APA 6 I played with a Samsara cue with a standard maple shaft. I didn't use much english because I was afraid I'd miss. As a consequence, my position game was somewhat limited. I hated the feel of Predator shafts...hollow and dead. However, I finally tried one for like the 5th time, and for some reason liked it. I found the learning curve to be almost non-existent, because I really didn't have a very great "english" game with my standard shaft. At that time I had been playing for about 6 -8 years. Very quickly my game went up. Of course I was practicing anyway, and would have improved anyway. But I made a pretty big jump once I gained the ability to use enough english, especially at longer distances, and not have to be so afraid of missing the ball. The money I spent on the shaft was well worth it. Easily paid for itself with tournament winnings.

The fact is there is a *difference* between what happens to the cueball when it is hit with LD shaft or a regular shaft when english is used. The fact is the cueball will squirt less with a LD shaft. The fact is, this means that by *definition* a LD shaft is more accurate than a not LD shaft. The fact is, the precision of the shooter will not be increased by any shaft. My opinion is that it is easier to learn with a more accurate tool. I would therefore conclude that your statement about "they would miss the ball no matter what shaft they use" is hyperbole, and also false. You are of course entitled to your own opinion, whether it contradicts facts and logic or not.

Why, oh why, do all these pro players buy into the hype? Why would they waste their time with LD shafts when they could play with standard maple? Any ideas? And don't bother arguing that they are sponsored. There are LOTS of pros who are not sponsored by a shaft company and still use that shaft. Heck, there are pros sponsored by one company that prefer (and occasionally use) products from another company. If its just hype, wouldn't the pros of all people catch on pretty quickly?

KMRUNOUT
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I still say that a lower skilled player who is looking for a miracle piece of equipment is going to miss the same shot no mattter what shaft he is using. Maybe he's aiming at the contact point and not the aiming point. Maybe he doesn't know the difference between the two. Who knows. But it's because his aim is off. And I absolutely agree with you in that the precision of a shooter will not be increased by any shaft. And that is my biggest problem with Esposito because he is convincing the lower skilled player who doesn't know any better that the reason they are missing shots isn't them, it's the shaft. And that simply isn't true. And he knows it.
 
the ld shafts that have a hollow feel. ..

Are because those shafts ARE hollow. A lot of the ld tech is based on hollowing out the shaft to reduce end mass. As far as the shaft glancing off on contact. I think you need to review that high speed photography again. Shafts do not bend away from the cue ball until after contact ceases and it is due to pressure being released that was incurred in the opposite direction from the mass of the cb creating pressure on the side of the shaft that is making contact with the cb.

Jaden
 
BogeyFree said:
I still say that a lower skilled player who is looking for a miracle piece of equipment is going to miss the same shot no mattter what shaft he is using. Maybe he's aiming at the contact point and not the aiming point. Maybe he doesn't know the difference between the two. Who knows. But it's because his aim is off. And I absolutely agree with you in that the precision of a shooter will not be increased by any shaft. And that is my biggest problem with Esposito because he is convincing the lower skilled player who doesn't know any better that the reason they are missing shots isn't them, it's the shaft. And that simply isn't true. And he knows it.
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Actually, you both are right. Lower skilled players will miss for a variety of reasons. The most likely being that they don't hit the cb where they think they are.

Now, given that fact, which shaft do you think would be easier for the shooter to use, a shaft that will squirt the cb at a large angle, or one that squirts the cb at a smaller angle? Obviously, the best answer would be one that doesn't squirt at all. Since that option is not available, the closest to it would be the one that squirts the least amount.

I use a Schon butt with a Predator 314 shaft with a very, very, hard tip. Combined with the shaft and the hard tip, I get the least amount of squirt possible. That means that I only rarely (when using extreme english) even have to really consider altering my aim for english. It is so slight a change (very low squirt) that I don't have to consciously adjust for it at all. I just aim the same as with center ball on about 90% of my shots.

The fact that I can do that, makes the game MUCH easier than having to allow for several inches of squirt that some cues will give you.
 
When you are just beginning to learn the violin, it really does not matter much which brand you are learning on. After you have mastered your technique, you can worry about finding that "Stradivarius."

About shafts:

Every shaft has a natural pivot point. Find that location and you can play accurately with any shaft (assuming you can play accurately).

LD shafts tend to have longer natural pivot points. That does not make them better, just different.

All of these stories of, "I tried LD and it was crap," or "LD is the ONLY way" are overstated and misunderstanding cue mechanics in my humble opinion.

I can say that my PERSONAL preference is for the stiffest shaft I can find. I really like that feel. I can always correct for deflection.
 
I don't know - maybe it's just me. I'm a 6 in APA 8 ball, a 7 in 9 ball and a 9 in BCA so I'm not exactly a beginner. I use a Lucasi with a stock shaft and Kamui black SS tip and an old Players that I just happen to like a lot also with a stock shaft and Kamui Black SS tip. Whenever I go to an event and demo a 314 or OB I can't tell the difference. They just all feel and play the same to me for whatever reason. I think a good player can play well with anything. Good discussion though.
 
absolutely. ..

Shaft said:
When you are just beginning to learn the violin, it really does not matter much which brand you are learning on. After you have mastered your technique, you can worry about finding that "Stradivarius."

About shafts:

Every shaft has a natural pivot point. Find that location and you can play accurately with any shaft (assuming you can play accurately).

LD shafts tend to have longer natural pivot points. That does not make them better, just different.

All of these stories of, "I tried LD and it was crap," or "LD is the ONLY way" are overstated and misunderstanding cue mechanics in my humble opinion.

I can say that my PERSONAL preference is for the stiffest shaft I can find. I really like that feel. I can always correct for deflection.
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I've now designed and built multiple products based on ld tech and I will unequivocally state that you are absolutely right.

You can easily learn to play with either one. With proper knowledge, dedication and good practice you can get to a high level with almost any equipment.

The key is finding out what works best for you.

I have taken the time to learning the ways to specifically use both types of equipment and its helped me with my designs, but for people to try and argue that one is superior to a fault is just ignorance.

Jaden
 
Straightpool_99 said:
With a predator Z or Z2 or an OB2 you can aim almost straight ahead on most shots
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I was surprised how much a Dr Dave's Z2 deflected during his testing of Jaden's LD tips. He reckoned on over 1.5 inches.

I never adjust when playing with my Z shaft and only rarely notice any deflection, let alone 1.5 inches.
 
that's because there are many variables.

Pathetic Shark said:
I was surprised how much a Dr Dave's Z2 deflected during his testing of Jaden's LD tips. He reckoned on over 1.5 inches.

I never adjust when playing with my Z shaft and only rarely notice any deflection, let alone 1.5 inches.
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There many more variables at play than just squirt.

Dave's test isolated squirt which doesn't account other factors in regular play.

For most shots with a ld cue you shouldn't have to adjust.
You have collision induced throw, swerve, etc.

It's the same with bhe. For the vast majority of shots it works without any additional adjustment.

When playing with my ld shaft with one of my tips I found that for some shots I have to adjust the opposite way.

Jaden
 
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Roger Long said:
Low deflection shafts do not make enough difference to justify their high costs. This is especially true for amateur players since they are not making their living playing pool which makes it unnecessary for them to look for minute improvements such as those that low deflection shafts might provide.

Besides, the thing that makes the biggest difference in the amount of cue ball deflection any player experiences, is the exact spot that the tip contacts. When contacting the cue ball in the correct spot, there is practically no difference in performance between a standard shaft and a low deflection shaft.

I admit that the above is strictly my opinion, but it has been based on results obtained through my own personal testing of low deflection shafts versus standard shafts. I do not have the benefit of a robot and a super slow motion camera, so proving the accuracy of my opinion would be impossible at this time.

Roger
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I just got a Z2 and like it but agree dont think the diff is worth the $$
 
KMRUNOUT said:
Roger, I'm glad at least that you recognize this is only your *opinion*. I think your own "testing" needs some serious revision. If you contact the cueball off center, there is a *significant* difference in the amount of cueball squirt between a standard maple shaft, and, say, a Predator Z2. This difference becomes more and more extreme the farther from center you go. You don't need a robot or anything...it is VERY obvious.

Strange post indeed...

KMRUNOUT
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If you hit directly on the horizontal axis to apply side spin (english), then yes, there is a measurable difference in the amount of cue ball deflection ("squirt") experienced between a standard shaft and a LD shaft. But I have two problems with that: first, I don't consider 1/2-inch over a distance of 50 inches a significant amount of difference; and second, a cue ball is rarely struck directly on the horizontal axis when applying side spin. It is almost always struck above the horizontal axis, which sends it off rolling (instead of sliding) and almost entirely eliminates squirt (deflection).

I think it's the robot testing that has been presented by others that needs the revising.

Roger
 
I disagree strongly with those who say you don't have to adjust, or adjust minimally, when using a low squirt shaft such as a 314 or Z. I've used both shafts exclusively (alternating between them every few years) for 15 years now. I've also tried almost every other brand of low squirt shaft on the market during this time.

I can tell you there is no such thing as not having to adjust. No matter the shaft, I have almost never sighted a shot with English the same as a center ball hit.

Even with a Z-2 shaft, which is the lowest deflection shaft on the market, I routinely have to go a full ball width away from a center ball sighting in order to make the proper hit. My experience here coincides very well with the recent Dr Dave video where he tested several shafts, one of which was a Z-2.

I think the reason one might say a low squirt cue doesn't need any or hardly any sighting adjustment from center ball sighting, while another person such as myself says I routinely sight a full ball width differently with a Z or 314 points to our differences in perception and how our mind sees the shot.

But you can't deny the test dr Dave videoed. There is extremely clear evidence the CB moves dramatically with many spin shots, including shots struck with a Z-2 shaft.
 
A lot depends on your style o f play!Will LD shafts make you play better?They will
if it blends with what your hoping it will bring to your game.
Take OB1 shafts,when I have sold these to customers,most finesse players
like them,where most guys that shoot firm don't.
Just like maple shafts,they all feel pretty good because there 1 piece but deflect
a lot which some people like.
You will sacrifice something with any shaft you buy,so I always tell guys to pick the
shaft they can do the majority of what they want with it.
You will always miss with anything you have.Its finding what you miss less with
should be your choice of shaft.
 
What if we come up with a standard test that can be done on a barbox and everyone can post their results. Sure everyone has a different stroke or even how they apply english. Maybe some players with their Ld shaft will still have their maple shaft and that would be the best test. Same player, same stroke and same english applied. We can all list our cue, shaft and tip with the results. I think it would be interesting to hear the results.
 
People have said the same about BHE...

BogeyFree said:
Ok thanks for the link.
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People have said the same about BHE and then I setup a live video stream and had a viewer call me on the phone and getting down on various shots with a straight non english aimline, they then told me what spin to apply, be it inside with follow, outside with draw, etc.etc. I did and invariably made the shots without moving my bridge hand at all. If I had been subconsciously adjusting for use of BHE, I couldn't have possibly done that, because when I aimed, I didn't know what english would be applied.

lots of People claim lots of things; unfortunately, it's impossible to know what is accurate information and what isn't without understanding and getting to that level yourself.

I showed JoeyA BHE when I was down in Louisiana. He didn't ascribe to it himself. When I explained how to use it, he said to show him a certain shot he usually had difficulty with. I shot it in first try and when he did what I said using BHE, he made it his first try too.

Ask him, I'm sure he'll probably remember.

Jaden

Jaden
 
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