low deflection shafts
- Thread starter mohrt
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Roger, It's conservation of momentum. There are millions of pieces of literature supporting the theory of classical rigid body physics... your singular experience with pool doesn't trump the validity of math.
The equation for squirt angle is alpha. As you can see, alpha is proportional to the effective end mass, me.
It just can't be reasonably argued with, unless you use your own invented form of logic.
The equation for squirt angle is alpha. As you can see, alpha is proportional to the effective end mass, me.
It just can't be reasonably argued with, unless you use your own invented form of logic.
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I'm sorry, but your math does nothing as far as explaining why there are differences in opinions here. How do you know that there are "millions" of pieces of literature supporting the "theory of classical rigid body physics?" Have you counted them? And why do you still call something a "theory" if it has already been proven to be a fact? It sounds to me like you're exaggerating your own conclusions, just like the LD shaft manufacturers exaggerate the benefits of spending big bucks on their equipment.
There, how's that for an example of my own invented form of logic?
Roger
Roger, your conclusions are more understandable given your premises. A Z2 shaft produces significantly more than a half inch of squirt over 50". A standard shaft could be over 3"!!! Also, squirt is a function of offset from the vertical axis. It really doesn't matter if you hit high, low, or center...the same distance to the left or right of center produces the same squirt.
If you believe hitting the cue ball high right, for example, eliminates squirt as compared to middle right, then I would feel the need to point out to you how very wrong you are.
The data is out there.
KMRUNOUT
Roger,
No disrespect intended to you, but your logic here is so far off I can't even believe you actually think this! Here is the part you are TOTALLY disregarding: PLAYING POSITION!!!
You are suggesting hitting the ball in such a way that you "cancel" out squirt with swerve. You must recognize that the amount of swerve for a given tip offset that cancels out squirt will *only* happen at *one* speed!! So there goes using speed control to obtain position. You further argue that you must hit a ball above center to accomplish this. Well, there goes draw to achieve position also! You are (I assume seriously) claiming that there is no need for a LD shaft because all you have to do is shoot every single shot above center and at the exact right speed and then squirt won't be an issue!
I'm curious why you believe that fristion between the ball and cloth is what produces *squirt*? It seems pretty self evident that squirt is produced by a vector force due to the nature of collision off center with a round object. Do you believe hitting pool balls on a sheet of ice would result in no squirt? I think the squirt would be very similar, and the swerve would be reduced to near zero.
Your argument seems, for lack of a friendlier word, ridiculous. I generally like your posts, but this line of reasoning really seems off the wall.
KMRUNOUT
actually high right should have more effective squirt than middle or low squirt.
I don't mean to nit pick, but high right should have more effective squirt than middle or low right would.
This is because with rails in the way for most shots, a middle or low right shot would have more swerve due to a different angle of the cue.
Jaden
I don't mean to nit pick, but high right should have more effective squirt than middle or low right would.
This is because with rails in the way for most shots, a middle or low right shot would have more swerve due to a different angle of the cue.
Jaden
Actually Roger, his math points out quite clearly why there are differences of opinions: because some people understand logic and some don't. And its a pretty bad example of any form of logic, because no logic is given at all. You have not stated any premises or drawn any conclusions. What you are calling "logic" here is a pretty good indication of why you are missing this.
KMRUNOUT
Jaden,
You are mixing terms together. I was talking about squirt, not swerve. You started out talking about squirt, but then shifted to swerve. It is difficult to determine which you are talking about.
Edit: I don't believe "squirt" is talking about the net effect of squirt and swerve. They are two independent forces as far as I can tell.
KMRUNOUT
Actually, hitting higher on the CB can do two important things related to net CB deflection (AKA "squerve" or the combined effects of squirt and swerve). Hitting higher can result in the cue being more level if the butt is lowered to help raise the tip. This would actually create less swerve, which would tend to exaggerate the effect of squirt (since less of the squirt is being cancelled by swerve). However, with a higher hit on the ball, squirt actually has two components ... one sideways which causes CB deflection (what we normally call "squirt"), and one down (into the table). The downward component will cause swerve to occur sooner (even before the CB moves forward very much at all). This is sometimes called "immediate swerve." This effect is more noticeable with highly-elevated-cue shots like masse shots and jump shots with off-center hits (intentional or not). These types of shots create a lot more swerve (CB curve) than with typical low-elevation pool shots. The immediate swerve associated with follow shots lessens the effect of sideways squirt (since more of the sideways squirt is being cancelled by the sooner swerve).
A draw shot, on the other hand, has less downward force into the table (from cue elevation) due to an upward component of squirt which reduces the "immediate swerve." Also, as illustrated in Diagram 1 of Squirt - Part VIII: squerve effects" (BD, March, 2008), swerve takes longer to complete with a draw shot since the CB slides over a longer distance while the curving takes place, so the net CB deflection will be more with draw shots at most distances, speeds, and cue elevations.
Regards,
Dave
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Dave,
I agree with everything you say. I was not talking about "squerve". I was specifically talking about squirt only. This is because this thread is about LD shafts, and as far as I know *squirt* is the only variable that these shafts deal with. While there may be other net effects, those are going to be true no matter what shaft you are talking about.
In any case, on relatively fresh Simonis cloth, with a firm hit (enough to go 3 rails around the table for example), how much swerve is taking place? I would guess *minimal*, but I don't really know. I'm asking.
Bottom line Roger has a point and he is right and all of us owe him an apology. He cancels squirt by applying more swerve by elevating cue.
The problem is that many people do not think about these effects separately. They just focus on the net result ... the combined effects of squirt and swerve. I like to call this "squerve" or "net CB deflection," but some people just call it "deflection" or "squirt" ... hence the confusion.
Agreed.
...very little, especially if the cue is as level as possible at contact with the CB.
In my latest squirt-testing video, the cloth was a slick and fast Simonis, we kept the cue as level as possible, and we used very fast speed, all to minimize swerve effects as much as possible so we could measure what we wanted to measure: how much squirt (CB deflection) each shaft and shaft/tip combination produced.
Regards,
Dave
I'm not sure this is how Roger would describe it, but I agree with your statement.
However, it is important to also point out that for this to work for different shafts (that produce different amounts of squirt), the shot speed and/or cue elevation would need to be different for each shaft. And the speed and/or cue elevation would need to change for different shot distances and different cloth conditions since the effect of swerve changes with these things.
Regards,
Dave
I agree it is hard to do, but with table rails help gauge cue elevation and one could get used to it just like some one shooting long shot with cue near rail and need to put low right on cb have to account for swerve big time
Prove it. Give me proof of everything you claim here, and then I might start getting it. Just because someone can throw a math formula out there, doesn't prove anything.
As a matter of fact, not one of you LD shaft salesmen have even come close to proving that my original statements in this thread are wrong. I never did say that LD shafts do not produce less squirt than standard shafts. What I said was that the problem with squirt can be drastically reduced when you play pool the conventional way, which is to hit the cue ball above its horizontal center line and ROLL it around the table at normal playing speeds, rather than pounding it around the table at the horizontal center line and applying maximum English just so you can show that one shaft is capable of squirting the ball more than some other. Of course you can squirt the ball a lot when you hit it that way; no one said you can't! But who plays pool like that?
I also stated that the slim benefit (in aiming) that users might obtain by purchasing LD shafts does not justify their high costs. This is where the "opinion" part comes in.
I am also not a fan of the "quality" in some of the LD shafts. Just this morning I had to repair a Z-2 shaft for a customer whose tip and ferrule had fallen off. That seems to be a common problem with Z-2's as I have had to repair several of them now. And the old 314 bored-through ferrules were so thin that they would crack all the time. Another thing I don't like about the Predator shafts is the low grade maple wood that they use in them. It's so grainy and porous that it cannot be smoothed down well, and the pores fill up with chalk dust that cannot be removed to a decent level.
I can't say that these same quality issues exist with other LD shafts because I haven't had to repair many of them yet. But that could be because there aren't nearly as many of them out there. (I do hate the dirty look of that wooden ferrule on the OB-1, however.)
Roger
Yeah, what I had in my head got lost on the way to my fingers
what I meant to write was the brass ferrule is heavy, so it goes against the concept of a low squirt shaft and helps create more squirt. Quite a few players here play with a snooker cue. Assuming a smaller diameter tip means low deflection. Snooker cues deflect the cue ball far more than the top selling low deflection shafts out there because of the ferrule and the fact they are usually very rigid.