Low deflection vs masse

[softshot]

I am NOT a good or even decent masse player so I am unable to contribute personal evidence... but I was wondering.. do the "good" masse shooters prefer low deflection shafts... or do they hinder performance in a masse shot?

it seems to me based on what I know that deflection is required for masse to work...

the deflection sends the cueball one way and the spin pulls it back... right?

so shooting masse with a LD shaft would be detrimental to the maximum curve that one could achieve..

any thoughts?

 

[skor]

Masse shots do not require deflection, they require spin!
Using low deflection shafts for masse only means that it should be aimed differently just like any shot with spin has to be aimed differently with a low deflection shaft.

I find it much easier to perform masse shots with my Z shaft from Predator. but I can do them with any shaft.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I am NOT a good or even decent masse player so I am unable to contribute personal evidence... but I was wondering.. do the "good" masse shooters prefer low deflection shafts... or do they hinder performance in a masse shot?

it seems to me based on what I know that deflection is required for masse to work...

the deflection sends the cueball one way and the spin pulls it back... right?

so shooting masse with a LD shaft would be detrimental to the maximum curve that one could achieve..

any thoughts?

On a sidespin shot the amount of squirt (deflection) is determined by the amount of tip offset and the amount of swerve (masse) is determined by the amount of cue elevation. For normal shots with the cue almost level squirt and swerve are pretty much of equal magnitude - in fact they sometimes exactly cancel each other out. But as you elevate your cue to add more swerve/masse, the squirt effect quickly becomes overpowered by the swerve/masse effect.

For "big swerves" - say when the cue is elevated 20 degrees or more - squirt is a very small effect. For shots that deserve the name "masse" - say with the cue elevated 45 degrees or more - squirt is pretty much nonexistent. For any shot with more than a few degrees of cue elevation you have to actually aim the cue ball in the initial direction you want it to go before curving; squirt doesn't do that for you.

So for masse shots low-squirt shafts don't matter and all shafts should probably be aimed the same way.

pj
chgo

 

[Colin Colenso]

it seems to me based on what I know that deflection is required for masse to work...

any thoughts?

No CB deflection, or squirt (the accepted terminology) is required for masse shots.

The CB leaves in the direction that the cue is pointing and later turns along a line that corresponds to (approximately parallel to) a line from where the CB is touching the cloth to the point where the tip was pointing to the cloth when the CB is hit.

All squirt does, is to slightly change the initial travel direction of the CB when it is struck to the side.

This was first described by Gustav Corriolis in the 1700's. Though he didn't know about squirt. Amateur! - Coriollis I mean

Colin

 

[mikepage]

No CB deflection, or squirt (the accepted terminology) is required for masse shots.

The CB leaves in the direction that the cue is pointing and later turns along a line that corresponds to (approximately parallel to) a line from where the CB is touching the cloth to the point where the tip was pointing to the cloth when the CB is hit.

All squirt does, is to slightly change the initial travel direction of the CB when it is struck to the side.

This was first described by Gustav Corriolis in the 1700's. Though he didn't know about squirt. Amateur! - Coriollis I mean

Colin

I agree. But I wonder still about the original question, whether low-squirt shafts are desirable for masse. Low-squirt shafts make lousy jump cues, and maybe that's a good thing for masse ???

 

[LAMas]

Are phenolic tips good for masse?

I think that a soft Elkmaster tip is better than a phenolic tip for masse - it's the tip that helps most.

 

[td873]

I am NOT a good or even decent masse player so I am unable to contribute personal evidence... but I was wondering.. do the "good" masse shooters prefer low deflection shafts... or do they hinder performance in a masse shot?

it seems to me based on what I know that deflection is required for masse to work...

the deflection sends the cueball one way and the spin pulls it back... right?

so shooting masse with a LD shaft would be detrimental to the maximum curve that one could achieve..

any thoughts?

Are you talking Mike Massey/Eric Yow masse? Or a typical 8/9-ball masse? I think both Eric and Mike use Dieckman masse cues - and I don't think he makes laminated shafts. Come to think of it, I can't even name a half dozen U.S. masse cue makers... And none that use LD shafts.

As with many shots using english in pool, shooting a masse with a LD shaft will create a different result. Not necessarily better or worse, just different. Also, the direction the cue stick is pointed is the primary factor determining cue ball direction, not deflection (as we typically use the word "deflection" here).

-td

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I agree. But I wonder still about the original question, whether low-squirt shafts are desirable for masse. Low-squirt shafts make lousy jump cues

That's definitely my experience. Any ideas why? Because it's more likely to trap the CB against the cloth?

and maybe that's a good thing for masse ???

Do you mean because the CB hops less? I don't think a low-squirt shaft gives appreciably more spin.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Are you talking Mike Massey/Eric Yow masse? Or a typical 8/9-ball masse? I think both Eric and Mike use Dieckman masse cues - and I don't think he makes laminated shafts. Come to think of it, I can't even name a half dozen U.S. masse cue makers... And none that use LD shafts.

I don't know if you meant it that way, but I don't think laminations (or shaft stiffness) affect the amount of squirt significantly.

pj
chgo

 

[Colin Colenso]

I agree. But I wonder still about the original question, whether low-squirt shafts are desirable for masse. Low-squirt shafts make lousy jump cues, and maybe that's a good thing for masse ???

Well, most masse shots are played pretty close to the line of center so sideways squirting shouldn't come into many shots, however I do expect it would increase the velocity in the initial direction significantly, which could make the timing of the curve more difficult.

For that reason I'd imagine LD masse cues would allow more consistency.

Colin

 

[td873]

I don't know if you meant it that way, but I don't think laminations (or shaft stiffness) affect the amount of squirt significantly.

pj
chgo

I simply stated that (1) I didn't believe Dieckmann didn't use laminated shafts at all [in any of his cues], and (2) no masse cue maker I was aware of made any type of LD shaft. Sorry if there was an implication of squirt that was confusing. I was just making a general statement (which I was sure you would comment on in one way or another...)

I do note that OB1 shafts are marketed as laminated and low deflection (and I think many others do so as well). Of course, this is an independent consideration, but one that exists nonetheless.

-td

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I simply stated that (1) I didn't believe Dieckmann didn't use laminated shafts at all [in any of his cues], and (2) no masse cue maker I was aware of made any type of LD shaft. Not sure where the squirt comment came from. Sorry if it was confusing, or if you read in a squirt comment. I was just making a general statement (which I was sure you would comment on in one way or another...)

-td

That comment didn't seem to have anything to do with the topic otherwise, so I wanted to clarify in case others assumed from it that laminations do have something to do with squirt. It's a common mistaken assumption - no need to feel persecuted.

pj
chgo

 

[Bob Jewett]

... The CB leaves in the direction that the cue is pointing and later turns along a line that corresponds to (approximately parallel to) a line from where the CB is touching the cloth to the point where the tip was pointing to the cloth when the CB is hit. ...

This is the simple theory from Coriolis, but I think it is not quite right. There is a standard fancy shot along the rail where the cue ball goes out straight along the rail and then comes straight back, hugging the rail on the way back. The shot is played with a nearly vertical cue (75 degrees?), draw, and side spin towards the cushion. You must align the stick to point away from the cushion some in order to get the cue ball to start out parallel to the cushion. I estimate the typical angle to be about 15 degrees.

I think this result is because of what you might call "impulsive masse." During the shot, the ball is forced against the cloth by the tip and the masse action during the tip contact will be greatly increased. The effect will be larger for sticky conditions (dirty cloth and ball). On some equipment, the ball ends up sticking to the cloth so much that the action for nearly vertical shots is ruined.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

This is the simple theory from Coriolis, but I think it is not quite right. There is a standard fancy shot along the rail where the cue ball goes out straight along the rail and then comes straight back, hugging the rail on the way back. The shot is played with a nearly vertical cue (75 degrees?), draw, and side spin towards the cushion. You must align the stick to point away from the cushion some in order to get the cue ball to start out parallel to the cushion. I estimate the typical angle to be about 15 degrees.

I think this result is because of what you might call "impulsive masse." During the shot, the ball is forced against the cloth by the tip and the masse action during the tip contact will be greatly increased. The effect will be larger for sticky conditions (dirty cloth and ball). On some equipment, the ball ends up sticking to the cloth so much that the action for nearly vertical shots is ruined.

So (for high-elevation shots like this) the cue ball goes more or less immediately at a ~15 degree angle from where the stick points? Do you think it nonetheless ends up rolling parallel with the line from the CB's center aimed at by the stick?

pj
chgo

 

[okinawa77]

Stroke

I am NOT a good or even decent masse player so I am unable to contribute personal evidence... but I was wondering.. do the "good" masse shooters prefer low deflection shafts... or do they hinder performance in a masse shot?

it seems to me based on what I know that deflection is required for masse to work...

the deflection sends the cueball one way and the spin pulls it back... right?

so shooting masse with a LD shaft would be detrimental to the maximum curve that one could achieve..

any thoughts?

I have found that it is the stroke that is most important in performing masse shots. I have used all kinds of cues/shafts/tips, and it really doesn't matter, if you stroke it right. I have even masse'ed with jump/break cues with phenolic/G10 tips.

As far as LD shaft, I have used the OB1 shaft and find it to be pretty good for masse shots.

I think a softer tip will make it easier to masse, but it may become more difficult to control the amount of spin.

 

[Bob Jewett]

So (for high-elevation shots like this) the cue ball goes more or less immediately at a ~15 degree angle from where the stick points? Do you think it nonetheless ends up rolling parallel with the line from the CB's center aimed at by the stick?

pj
chgo

I think it's close. Another factor to consider is that the tip moves significantly around the circumference of the ball during tip-ball contact, which will change the effective aiming point on the cloth.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

... Another factor to consider is that the tip moves significantly around the circumference of the ball during tip-ball contact, which will change the effective aiming point on the cloth.

Hmm... hadn't thought of that.

Thanks; that might help my aiming.

pj
chgo

 

[dr_dave]

nonideal masse shot effects

I think it's close. Another factor to consider is that the tip moves significantly around the circumference of the ball during tip-ball contact, which will change the effective aiming point on the cloth.

FYI, HSV A.60 shows the tip motion on the CB quite well. Also, on page 3 of my November '05 article, I summarize several effects that might cause a non-ideal masse path.

Regards,
Dave

 

[mosconiac]

I use a LD shaft (either 314 or OB-1) and feel I'm pretty good at masse's (not the artistic type, but the kind typically required in play). I attribute it to Bob Jewett's aiming technique which you may be able to find on his SF Billiards site. I showed a friend and he immediately improved...which was a mistake on my part. LOL

EDIT: I found the articles for you...
http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/1997-12.pdf
http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/1998-02.pdf
http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/1998-03.pdf