Machinist Level

That's because you are familiar with machine systems, and it is not a problem for you to spend your time that way. I imagine you own or have access to at least 1 (or more?) surface plates to inspect for flat. Starrett castings are not unknown to warp, though they probably don't wear very rapidly despite slate and chalky cloth being abrasive.

You could probably take a good surface plate to Trent's, a small scraper or 2, some diamond laps to keep them in shape, a tube of hi-spot, maybe something to inspect the surface plate from time to time.....see where this is going....? Then given how fast he learns stuff, probably teach him to touch-up scrape and dial in a level in an afternoon.

OTOH, He's a professional at what he does, maybe he would prefer to use his spare time



Similar looking levels come in a range of sensitivities. 98-'s are aprox 80 - 90 arc sec, or aprox .005"/ft. Castings for frames similar to the 98- under discussion came with vials as sensitive as 10 arc sec/ .00058/ft for special purposes (will drive you nuts/useless on a pool table). Then they made cheaper levels on the same frame with blown but not ground vials, (97- IIRC) for which the sensitivity is outside .005"/ft and ambiguous.

If yours is a ground vial .005"/ft, it can be used alone, or with a scraped parallel of any length(s). Or even a ground parallel. I understand that such gages would not be common in the tool kits of people who aren't machinists. It could work fine to set up your own table. It could be a time killer for a pro to schlep to jobs. :)
You said that Starrett level casting are not unknow to warp and that's total bullshit at 500%, machinist level are not pry bar and no more to do that

6-Float.jpg
 
You said that Starrett level casting are not unknow to warp and that's total bullshit at 500%,

At a given resolution, the world is made of rubber, El Picos.

I have experience with some Starrett levels, and used to sell 30" straight edges for scraping references. (Made patterns, had them cast, planed them, had them heat treated/thermal stabilized) Anyone who deals with castings & flatness in a precision sense expects to routinely inspect and maintain the tools. Cast iron is a wonderful mostly stable and relatively stiff material for making gages out of. It is not immutable.

Separate points: Even when stability endures over time, CI tools are subject to dent burrs and other damage from handling that affects precision. It is pernicious and can happen even with generally well handled tools. There is a difference in confidence buying tools straight from the maker vs nused. You may never have slightly clanked a pair together & burred an edge. If you did, you probably inspected and stoned it immediately. But did a previous user?

Higher resolution Starrett levels are not actually scraped dead flat. Though I think the 98's are ground. There still is debate in machinist forums whether they (98's)are currently ground flat, or relieved as they were traditionally.

This stuff is constantly discussed on Practical Machinist if you want to dig deeper.




smt
 
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At a given resolution, the world is made of rubber, El Picos.

I have experience with some Starrett levels, and used to sell 30" straight edges for scraping references. (Made patterns, had them cast, planed them, had them heat treated/thermal stabilized) Anyone who deals with castings & flatness in a precision sense expects to routinely inspect and maintain the tools. Cast iron is a wonderful mostly stable and relatively stiff material for making gages out of. It is not immutable.

Separate points: Even when stability endures over time, CI tools are subject to dent burrs and other damage from handling that affects precision. It is pernicious and can happen even with generally well handled tools. There is a difference in confidence buying tools straight from the maker vs nused. You may never have slightly clanked a pair together & burred an edge. If you did, you probably inspected and stoned it immediately. But did a previous user?

Higher resolution Starrett levels are not actually scraped dead flat. Though I think the 98's are ground. There still is debate in machinist forums whether they (98's)are currently ground flat, or relieved as they were traditionally.

This stuff is constantly discussed on Practical Machinist if you want to dig deeper.




smt
BS total, no more time to lose
 
At a given resolution, the world is made of rubber, El Picos.

I have experience with some Starrett levels, and used to sell 30" straight edges for scraping references. (Made patterns, had them cast, planed them, had them heat treated/thermal stabilized) Anyone who deals with castings & flatness in a precision sense expects to routinely inspect and maintain the tools. Cast iron is a wonderful mostly stable and relatively stiff material for making gages out of. It is not immutable.

Separate points: Even when stability endures over time, CI tools are subject to dent burrs and other damage from handling that affects precision. It is pernicious and can happen even with generally well handled tools. There is a difference in confidence buying tools straight from the maker vs nused. You may never have slightly clanked a pair together & burred an edge. If you did, you probably inspected and stoned it immediately. But did a previous user?

Higher resolution Starrett levels are not actually scraped dead flat. Though I think the 98's are ground. There still is debate in machinist forums whether they (98's)are currently ground flat, or relieved as they were traditionally.

This stuff is constantly discussed on Practical Machinist if you want to dig deeper.




smt

It looks to me that El Picos doesn't want to admit that you are correct.

"At a given resolution, the world is made of rubber" That is one of my new favorite quotes. I do a lot of metal fab, I hear people say all the time "thats not going to move/flex" thats wrong, everything moves or flexes at some point, usually much, much more easily than you would expect it too, its just that not too many people monitor that. I have seen a lot of smart people check calibration on levels for the first time when you ask them if its accurate, I mean its pretty much common sense you just swap it end for end, what they realize at first is that you to put it in the exact same place each time, not close, but exact. The more sensitive the level the more critical the exact place is.
 
... . I have seen a lot of smart people check calibration on levels for the first time when you ask them if its accurate, I mean its pretty much common sense you just swap it end for end, what they realize at first is that you to put it in the exact same place each time, not close, but exact. The more sensitive the level the more critical the exact place is.

I clamp a small carpenters square to my bench (2" maple top on a pallet-rack frame) or mill table to get X and Y hard stops, nothing to it (I also make sure to clean the area and to not lean on the bench / mill).

Dave <-- has put a 98 on his mill and then leaned on the table 🤓
 
Don't forget we're talking about pool tables here. Tolerances are not in the tenths. That said, starting out with your level as accurate as possible is never a bad idea. I check mine every time. I doubt I'll ever need to surface them though.
You are absolutely right!!
 
Thanks to those who posted hard facts and positively contributed. I love having my levels certified and maintained by Starrett and I am 100% sure my clients do to!! Now who's laughing?

TFT
MY STARRETT BILLS ARE ALWAY CALCULATED INTO JOBS , ALSO TAX DEDUCTIBLE
 
Don't forget we're talking about pool tables here. Tolerances are not in the tenths. That said, starting out with your level as accurate as possible is never a bad idea. I check mine every time. I doubt I'll ever need to surface them though.
Absolutely, but if your level is a quarter bubble off and you normally shoot for a quarter bubble of tolerance you could easily end up a half bubble off of your desired state of level. I know when my table was a half bubble off on my 12" Starrett it rolled off, just sayin. :)
 
Absolutely, but if your level is a quarter bubble off and you normally shoot for a quarter bubble of tolerance you could easily end up a half bubble off of your desired state of level. I know when my table was a half bubble off on my 12" Starrett it rolled off, just
Hey hey wake up, he said he check them everytime, only simple mind guys need Starrett to know if there levels are perfectly calibrated.
 
I swear you guys take things to the 10x of complicated.

Put the level in the 90 degree corner of a carpenters square, turn the level and square to a point that the bubble reads on the second or third line. Once there, turn the level 180 and it should read on the same line, if not, adjust up or down. Repeat until the bubble reads in the same place.

The bubble varies in size depending on the temperature, to try and adjust the bubble to read center is a waste of time. If you adjust it to read on an exact line, and it lands on that exact line when turned 180, then it's dead level. You don't need a dead flat surface to calibrate the level, just a repeatable measuring point when checked from both directions!!!
 
Here's the deal, I use 1 8" Starrett level, don't need 2, 4, 8, 10 or more in order to get a slate dead level. I have a system of leveling that blue prints the level of the slate before I even start leveling it. I would challenge anyone it they want to see if you can level a slate better with all those extra levels, than I can with just one, and I bet my slate comes out more level.
 
Thanks to those who posted hard facts and positively contributed. I love having my levels certified and maintained by Starrett and I am 100% sure my clients do to!! Now who's laughing?

TFT
MY STARRETT BILLS ARE ALWAY CALCULATED INTO JOBS , ALSO TAX DEDUCTIBLE
I'm laughing at having the factory maintain a level used for pool tables. It should remain good to go for many lifetimes if that's all it's ever used for.

What Sheldon said, he checks his every time.

If I were your client and knew I was paying for some kind of a level obsession I would not love it at all.
 
I'm laughing at having the factory maintain a level used for pool tables. It should remain good to go for many lifetimes if that's all it's ever used for.

What Sheldon said, he checks his every time.

If I were your client and knew I was paying for some kind of a level obsession I would not love it at all.
So let me get this right, I take my 4 main Starrett levels once a year for maintenance/inspection/ calibration and thats an obsession??? YES! I am crazy obsessed LOL. I guess I might rethink the dr, the dentist, a tune up on my car and other great things: NOT!

Wow, I will take it!

TFT

P.s. I do not use 76 levels at once, just like that all of my levels read the same and are taken care of the people who made them, just like my Volkswagens....
 
So let me get this right, I take my 4 main Starrett levels once a year for maintenance/inspection/ calibration and thats an obsession??? YES! I am crazy obsessed LOL. I guess I might rethink the dr, the dentist, a tune up on my car and other great things: NOT!

Wow, I will take it!

TFT

P.s. I do not use 76 levels at once, just like that all of my levels read the same and are taken care of the people who made them, just like my Volkswagens....
I don't know how much they charge you but it's a waste of money if you're taking reasonable care of them. A level isn't like the engine in your car, it's more like the bumper.
 
I don't know how much they charge you but it's a waste of money if you're taking reasonable care of them. A level isn't like the engine in your car, it's more like the bumper.
A bumper?? OK man, how ever you want to treat your tools is your business. I make money with all of my equipment and I also happen to manage the 2 nicest pool rooms in the country and install only the best equipment money can buy, so there is that too. I guess all of the people who spend their hard earned money with my company, they must value the formula that operates it. :)

Trent
 
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