Made in the U.S.A.

Also Tom, you should really check your facts before you make your statements.

You said that I "own" a factory in China. I do not own a factory in China. I own a small workshop which employs at present 7 people.

You said that I am "undercutting" American case makers. Um, nearly all of my cases are in the same price class as similar cases from other makers. In fact many makers charge LESS than I do and some charge more. Where I believe we give more value if apples to apples are compared is that I believe our cases are better constructed and protect the cues better than those of my colleagues. This opinion is based entirely on my own experience with other maker's work. Now I will certainly concede that there are some new case maker's whose work I am not personally familiar with which may offer better construction than ours and possibly better protection.

I'd like to think Tom that IF there is such a case then I had some small influence on the case maker's decision to beef up protection since I have preached this gospel about what I think is proper cue protection for 15 years on these forums.

So please, if you are going to make statements about me then make sure they are factual.

I find it really funny that back when I owned Instroke and people assumed that the cases were "made in Germany" that NO ONE EVER - NOT ONCE - came at me with the "buy American" and "you are not a patriot" comments. Never. Even when I explained that the cases were NOT MADE IN GERMANY and that "Made by Instroke" was more important - no one complained in the least. But now I am in China and it's a whole different story.

You know what? Instroke cases were made in the Czech Republic. The newly Democratic Czech Republic. They were made by Kozak Leather Goods Factory in Klatovy, a quaint medieval town. The factory was quite large and had more than 150 years of history making leather goods. They produced goods for Mercedes and other well know high end luxury brands.

My contact there told me all sorts of stories about life under communism. She told me that they would often be forced to make boots and gloves for Russia. They had periods of utter stillness where they made nothing and everyone stood around and periods where they were ordered to make millions of boots or bags or gloves even though they had already made enough for every person in Russia to have two pairs.

Well communism failed in Eastern Europe. Kozak was turned into a private company with shareholders - the orginal owners did NOT get it back. Under a capitalist and FREE MARKET system Kozak eventually died because there was not enough profitable business to sustain a giant old factory. What happened to all the people?

They went out and rented smaller spaces and opened their own leather goods manuafacturing - they bought the old factory's equipment at cheap prices and were able to set up leaner operations. Production continued but now the people who were just workers before were now owners and in charge of their own fate.

In industry as well as life there is a cycle of life and death. Propping up dying industries artificially through government or even private susbsidies is just prolonging the inevitable.

Now, I don't consider it "propping up" to PAY MORE for a better service or product. I do consider it propping up to pay more for the same service or product. However if I decide to do that because I want to keep someone around then I consider it an investment for my convenience, a self-serving act. If I do it without any expectation of future need then it's simply charity.

I like the mom and pop places and would rather go there to hang out with Mom and Pop. They know me and if I forgot my wallet then they will let me skate. Which is what one poster said as well.

But on the flip side Mom and Pop can't possibly carry everything that a Wal Mart can. Nor are they likely to be open at 3:00am when I need a trailer hitch as really happened to me when I was on a road trip. So both businesses play a part in the fabric of life.

And it's my experience that not many mom and pop places have been shut down because of Wal-Mart. And my personal experience working at the Barton family grocery store in Dover, Arkansas in 2003 was that they were doing just fine despite the Super Wal Mart down the road. This grocery store was owned by my ex-wife's grandfather, who also owned the local hardware store and the local feed and tack store and the local strip mall.
 
OMG: I just watched the video. That is some scary shit. Fortunately, or unfortunately, the First Amendment gives people the right to put that kind of trash on the Internet. Scary. Really, Really Scary.

I guess in this day and age ... ANYONE say ANYTHING about ANY subject.

The point is can you factually refute anything that was said in the video?

One thing that they did not mention in the video is that with the advent of the Ipod Touch and the Iphone and it's ability to run programs or Apps (applications) it has created another marketplace where hundreds of thousands of people are engaged in writing software for this platform. Thus pretty much out of nothing a new economy was born where millions have the opportunity to write the next killer app and make millions. Thousands of companies have been created solely for the purpose of writing applications for the Iphone platform. And a LOT of those - maybe most at this point are based in the USA.

If the phone were manufactured in the USA then it would be prohibitively expensive and therefore less units would be sold and that would mean less consumers for the apps. Not to mention of course the upswing in sales of music, movies, and books due to the Itunes store and the ability to buy directly from the phone.

You are right, anyone can put anything they want on the net. And anyone else can refute it if they are able to. Just insinuating that it's wrong as you have done here is not enough.

Tell us what part of the information presented is not factual? Provide your sources.

Don't want to do that? Then just continue to push buttons hoping someone, anyone will agree and start pushing buttons with you without understanding in the least that all the button pushing does is get folks going in the wrong direction without knowing why.
 
{I read most of the entries in this thread}

The think I do not understand is that: if the average American worker is in competition with a foreign worker making $2.00 per day, how is the American lifestyle going to look in another generation? Is anyone even going to be able to afford to play pool?
 
I've read all your posts in this thread, JB, and as a libertarian who believes in free speech, free market and free trade I am happy with what I am reading.

I know that I will not regret being a customer of a smart and intelligent person like you.

Drop me an email when you are ready to accept new orders, and let's see if it is possible to make one that I will be satisfied with :)
 
{I read most of the entries in this thread}

The think I do not understand is that: if the average American worker is in competition with a foreign worker making $2.00 per day, how is the American lifestyle going to look in another generation? Is anyone even going to be able to afford to play pool?

If you want to look at it that way then the American worker has been in competition with lower wage workers around the world for at least 50 years.

Still in those 50 years productivity has risen, more demand has led to more jobs and so on.

Hopefully though in ten years the American lifestyle will be one where Americans stop consuming so much that they don't need and paying for it with credit. If they do that not only will they be able to play pool but they will have more time to do it since they won't have to work two jobs to pay off credit card debt.

The American worker IS in competition with foreign workers. So the answer is that the American worker should make themselves indispensable by increasing their productivity, eliminating waste, making themselves financially secure by reducing their personal consumption and debt, making themselves able to do a variety of jobs by investing in learning a broad range of skills.

Instead most would rather rely on the government or a union to "protect" their jobs. Most would like to believe that a corporation owes them some sort of guarantee of employment no matter what the market conditions are.

It's funny but employees (workers) always want to share in the profits by expecting high wages, bonuses, and raises and other perks but never want to share in the losses. When a company loses money employees never volunteer to take pay cuts, work more hours, or otherwise sacrifice their lifestyle to keep the company going. (Well in fact some employees at some companies do this but it is quite rare).

What they forget is that the company is taking 100% of the losses but not receiving 100% of the earnings since profit is taxed highly. So if a business is faced with the prospect of going out of business due to excessive taxation, wages, or other costs that reduce profit to slim or none then why should the owners of that business continue to operate in a risky position where they stand to lose everything but have little to gain if they win.

If I said to you as a pool player I'd like you to back me in a tough match and if I win you can get your money back plus ten percent and if I lose you lose 100% of your money you will probably politely or not so nicely decline. But in effect this is what people who believe that jobs should be artifically "protected" against those low wage foreigner workers are offering. Dear Mr. Investor, please start a company in the USA where between the unions, taxes and regulations you can earn very little and have all the risk - and also while you are at it please guarantee your employees work for life.

Come on man, this is ridiculous. China has been sending low priced goods our way for 20 years. Before that it was "made in Japan" that was the evil scapegoat. Now "made in Japan" means high quality and living in Japan costs more than just about any place on Earth. We weren't destroyed by cheap imports from Japan.

What will destroy America is the misguided belief that there is such a thing a free money. That's how a lot of Americans think of credit. They look at it as free money. They get a credit card and then max it out and then pay it off with another credit card and rinse and repeat. Eventually the bill comes due and they can't pay it. The idea of saving for what you want is pretty much dead in the American pysche these days.

You want to know if anyone will be able to afford to play pool in ten years? Yes if they get off the credit teat and rearrange their life so that they are not slaves to the credit they ran up for crap that they don't need. They should invest in things that last and that they can use for years and years.

So if the American worker is in competition then he or she needs to get off the couch and start playing to win.
 
I'm not going to get into a drawn out debate over this. But their is a lot of truth to what Mr Barton is saying. However not all imports are cheaper or made better while others might be. I've been to China, hell I've many places outside the U.S. And one thing I noticed is that EVERYWHERE I have been. EVERY country people tried to buy products made in country that supported their economy including China. Not to sound rude but practice what you preach.
IMO I don't usually see a huge price difference in most things I buy that are not made in the U.S. Whether it's furniture a pool cue,nuts, bolts,clothes hangers, coffee pots or various other things. I tend to buy the best quality for the price while preferring goods made in the US over others. I then branch out from there, North American, European and so forth.
The reason I tend to avoid Chinese made goods are for other reason. Quality being one, no I'm not saying everything made in China is inferior but certain articles I deal with are. The other reason is that some Chinese manufacturers have been "dumping' their goods to force non Chinese manufactures to close shop and move their production to China. Sorry but that is NOT FREE TRADE!
While I respect Mr. Barton's opinion as an entrepreneur I do feel like some of it is self serving. I can't find fault in that either. He started a business to make a profit and employ people whether it's in China the US or on the moon. But to get heated with people for wanting to buy from the country they live in is uncalled for. Especially when it's practiced ten fold else where. Just my humble thoughts.
 
If China and other countries had to work in the confines of OSHA, EPA, our governments labor laws, etc., they could not compete with us.

Just ask "Why did China have to shut down manufacturing for 3 weeks prior to the Olympics"?
 
This thread needs someone as educated and passionate as JB to argue against him. Nobody on the "Buy USA" side has said anything intelligent or come up with a good reason that hasn't been refuted by JB.

Normally I'd be willing to take up an argument of this magnitude, but I totally agree with JB on this one.

I think the main reason for all this debate is xenophobia towards Asian countries. Nobody bats an eye at people over European beers and European made cars, and yet the second someone sees "Made in China", people flip the f out.

Tons of high quality products come from China, products that you guys never question the integrity of until you realize its source. The quality control issues that you guys criticize exist because of the fact that they are PRODUCTION companies, not because they are CHINESE.

I mean, damn, Meucci is USA based and they have way more quality issues than Predator, Fury, Lucasi, or any other Made in China cue. By nature, high volume production operations cannot compete in terms of quality with custom makers. However, I bet a custom maker in China would be just as good as a custom maker in the US. And right now, a lot of people would agree that the average production cue in China is just as good as the average production cue from the US.

If you disagree with my opinions, I welcome a clear and logical rebuttal, but please don't clutter this thread with "omg go USA, Chinese stuff sucks" crap.
 
If China and other countries had to work in the confines of OSHA, EPA, our governments labor laws, etc., they could not compete with us.

Just ask "Why did China have to shut down manufacturing for 3 weeks prior to the Olympics"?

To reduce pollution.

Why would they care about labor laws during the Olympics? It's not like the athletes are gonna go running around in the factories. But the athletes do run around outside, so thus pollution reduction was in the best interest of Chinese PR.
 
I'm not going to get into a drawn out debate over this. But their is a lot of truth to what Mr Barton is saying. However not all imports are cheaper or made better while others might be. I've been to China, hell I've many places outside the U.S. And one thing I noticed is that EVERYWHERE I have been. EVERY country people tried to buy products made in country that supported their economy including China. Not to sound rude but practice what you preach.
IMO I don't usually see a huge price difference in most things I buy that are not made in the U.S. Whether it's furniture a pool cue,nuts, bolts,clothes hangers, coffee pots or various other things. I tend to buy the best quality for the price while preferring goods made in the US over others. I then branch out from there, North American, European and so forth.

Which countries, may I ask? In my experience, this is the opposite. Citizens of countries like Japan and China simply eat up foreign made products, sometimes literally. Look at the proliferation of American based fast food and drinks, such as McDonalds and Coca-Cola.

Never once have I ever heard the sentiment of "Buy Chinese made products" or "Buy Japanese made products" or "Buy <insert country name here> products" outside of the USA.

I think it is just that people around the world have embraced the fact that they now live in a globalized age, and I think America is starting to embrace that fact also.
 
I think that China will do great until they run out of cheap labor. Then they'll fall to the same fate as we are experiencing as goods begin to be manufactured somewhere that has cheaper labor. It all has to even out. As JB has said, we live in a world market these days and things have to even up a bit. Other countries will be getting a piece of the pie that we used to automatically get. That's life. Everybody gets a little bite. Everybody gets to wet their beak.
 
I'm not going to get into a drawn out debate over this. But their is a lot of truth to what Mr Barton is saying. However not all imports are cheaper or made better while others might be. I've been to China, hell I've many places outside the U.S. And one thing I noticed is that EVERYWHERE I have been. EVERY country people tried to buy products made in country that supported their economy including China. Not to sound rude but practice what you preach.

Of course every country is going to have it's share of people who think that buying local is the way to stimulate and protect the local economy.

This is definitely not a new concept as throughout history protectionism is practiced and even forcibly foisted on people. In one province in China recently citizens were told by the local government that they must smoke several million more packs of a local brand to stimulate the business for that brand and that they would be fined if caught smoking other brands. (even brands from other provinces). Just because people believe that following a personal policy of buying local will protect their local economy doesn't mean that it will.

I buy locally not to stimulate or prop up my local economy but instead because it's more convenient and I prefer to have someone I can personally go and complain to face to face when I need to. But when the price is too high or the local suppliers offer too little choice then I expand my purchasing area as far as I need to in order to obtain the goods we need.

IMO I don't usually see a huge price difference in most things I buy that are not made in the U.S. Whether it's furniture a pool cue,nuts, bolts,clothes hangers, coffee pots or various other things. I tend to buy the best quality for the price while preferring goods made in the US over others. I then branch out from there, North American, European and so forth.

Fair enough and a sound policy.

The reason I tend to avoid Chinese made goods are for other reason. Quality being one, no I'm not saying everything made in China is inferior but certain articles I deal with are.

Of course. This really isn't a debate on quality. The fact is that quality is the responsibility of the company that imports and sells the product. That's why there are very crappy irons made in China and very very good ones. I am about to import some high quality router bits from America that are possibly made in China. Why can't I find them in China? Probably because there is no consumer demand for them and industrial needs are met with special production of such bits. The fact is that I am going to import these bits from reputable companies regardless of where the bits are made because I believe in the companies that offer them for sale.

The other reason is that some Chinese manufacturers have been "dumping' their goods to force non Chinese manufactures to close shop and move their production to China. Sorry but that is NOT FREE TRADE!

It seems to me that this is in fact the freest form of capitalist expression that there is. If a company can afford to take the risk of dumping it's goods which forces prices down in order to attempt to force other manufacturers in the other nation to move their production to China then more power to them. I think that this is a fallacy because there is no guarantee that the companies will move their production to China or to any particular firms. What if the affected companies simply opened competing factories in China and in turn put the 'dumping' companies out of business? Or what if they moved their production to Mexico, or Vietnam, or Africa? Seems like running at a loss or a break even point is a very risky strategy.

Free trade is when a producer offers a good to a consumer for the lowest price the producer can accept and the consumer is free to choose the goods from multiple producers at the highest price he is willing to pay. Price wars between suppliers are good for consumers.

When you accuse Chinese companies of dumping then what do you think of companies in the USA that do the same thing to their competitors? Or what do you think of one state that entices a company to move it's entire operation to that state from another state using taxpayer's money to finance subsidies for the company? Isn't that also a form of "unfair" competition? What if there are two competing companies in California who are of equal size and Arizona offers substantial taxpayer subsidies to only ONE of them which would lower the cost of production and allow the company to reduce the cost of the product substantially and subsequently the price to the consumer? Which in turn would put tremendous pressure on the company that is NOT receiving the Arizona susbsidy (paid by taxpayers) and possibly drive it out of business due to a heavy loss of sales. Is this not also an affront to "free trade"?

When governments interfere then free-trade is not free anymore. The only real thing governments should be doing is preventing monopolies because that restricts competition too severely. Of course the goal of business is to create monopolies and maximize efficiency and profit. It's obvious that the guy who has a lemonade stand would like to own all the lemonade stands in the city and control all the lemons as well. From the consumer's point of view they don't want this even if the guy makes the best lemonade in the world simply because they don't want to be told lemonade is $5 a glass and it only comes in one flavor.


While I respect Mr. Barton's opinion as an entrepreneur I do feel like some of it is self serving. I can't find fault in that either. He started a business to make a profit and employ people whether it's in China the US or on the moon. But to get heated with people for wanting to buy from the country they live in is uncalled for. Especially when it's practiced ten fold else where. Just my humble thoughts.

I am not getting heated for people wanting to buy locally. That's their choice. I choose to do the exact same thing as much as I can. I only get heated when those people claim that they are being patriotic and imply that those who don't make every attempt to buy locally are not patriotic. I get heated when they use false reasoning to justify their claims.

The only real reason someone needs to say they buy locally is "because I want to". That's it, they don't need to say they do it because it's patriotic or because they are supporting the economy because those reasons have been shown to be untrue on both the local and national level.

As well I hate to have people get personal with me and start telling me that I ought to act as they want me to or they will punish me economically.

I do think that more things should be made in America. But for that to happen America needs to wake up and change it's habits and realize that simply having a "Buy America" slogan is not the fix.

Instead the slogan should be "less government + no subsidies = more innovation and job creation". If people would adopt that then they would see prosperity and wealth creation happening everywhere and it would be real and long lasting.
 
I think that China will do great until they run out of cheap labor.....

Not going to happen....
"Shanghai is urging eligible couples to have two children as worries about the looming liability of an ageing population outweighs concerns about over-stretched resources"

Read more:
http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2009/07/24/world/international-china-babies.html

I come from a country that for years pushed to consume local products but today it is simply impossible. You can't stop progress and global economy.
The easy access to information and knowledge that has been growing very fast over the last 20 years if it's through foreign TV stations and adds, magazines, traveling overseas and the internet revolution makes want to consume what other do in other places, on TV or whatever. Local production can not compete with it, it is not just a question of costs anymore.
 
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John beat me to it.
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=95896

Being from Canada, of course I buy Canuckian, whenever possible. We have a large agricultural based economy (at least where I live). Could we survive without fresh produce from the USA? Nope. Could I survive without my GWG jeans and Harley Davidsons, and many other made in the USA products. Nope. Do Canuckians shop at Wally World whenever possible to save a buck or two. Oh yeah.

Canada is the single largest supplier of oil to the USA. In fact, you guys get to buy refined oil cheaper than we can. There is a refinery where I live and a huge fleet of super B tankers haul crude out of the lines 24/7 and dump it across the border. Yet, I have the privelage of paying close to 6 bucks a gallon at the pumps. Americans depend on Canadian Hydro, natural gas, (again, buying it cheaper than I can) and fresh water.
Canada is the USAs number 1 trading partner. Could the USA survive without Canada. You bet they could, maybe a bit of inconvenience here and there but they wouldn't shrivel up and die.
Could Canada survive without having USA for a trading partner? I doubt it.
NAFTA, necessary for our existence. I can't afford a Justis case and probably never will. I was able to afford a perfect 3X5 Sterling case tho.
I'll live with it.

Terry----- Thinks that Florida orange juice is much tastier than fresh squeezed hockey puck juice.
 
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I come from a country that for years pushed to consume local products but today it is simply impossible.

Almost true I sometimes go to five or six different retailers to find the products that are made elsewhere.
 
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Mr. Barton, you are correct that if a company attempts to force prices down that's one thing. However when it's done in an attempt to corner the market that's another. Especially when the host govt. is involved. It also takes away choice. I don't care who makes it as long as it's a good quality. I will first try an support my local business and work my self outward from there. Quality being my first concern. However I personally wouldn't be happy with any business operating in such a fashion whether it's an American, Chinese or elsewhere.
Just because you have the money or power doesn't give you the right. Good example, Bill Gates decides to make pool cases. Sells them for $5 until no one can compete. Then raises prices until someone starts another case business. Then does the same again.Sorry this doesn't sit well with me. Maybe I'm alone in that department but oh well.
 
If China and other countries had to work in the confines of OSHA, EPA, our governments labor laws, etc., they could not compete with us.

Just ask "Why did China have to shut down manufacturing for 3 weeks prior to the Olympics"?

This is true to a large degree. However your statement is not true that China shut down manufacturing three weeks before the Olympics. The Beijing government did in fact undertake some measures to improve air quality just as every major city that hosts the Olympics has done. Look it up and you will find that Los Angeles had to do a lot to improve it's air quality to meet the IOC standards.

On the other hand many US manufacturers say that if they were not so confined by the thousands of government regulations in the USA then they could be competitive with China.

There is no doubt that the myriad of regulations that businesses have to comply with in the USA are one thing that saps resources and adds to cost. Every business in the USA can point to dozens of silly laws that make it tougher to do business than it should be.

Of course there are many useful laws - the point is though that there are certainly far more useless ones. One huge problem is that Regulatory Agencies like the FDA have the power to create regulations which have the FORCE OF LAW without anyone voting them into existence. So they essentially have the power to cripple or wipe out a business by issuing a regulation that must be complied with or their agents with guns will forcibly shut down the business.

Think that this doesn't happen? It happens every day.

It's true that if China had the same type of government pressure on business that their costs would go up and the price of their goods would be less attractive.

China does in fact have some pretty harsh laws on the books about workplace safety, wages, and product safety. The problem is that China is also rife with corruption and success is measured in output only so local leaders often look the other way so that the production numbers can stay high.

And the SAME THING happens in the USA with the biggest difference being that we have more people willing and able to watch out for and expose such practices. China still has a long way to go before free speech is truly protected.

One thing about China though is that WHEN someone is caught willfully producing goods that endanger lives then they face the death penalty and it's carried out immediately. But that's another topic.

It important to remember that all these laws and regulations that are in effect in America took 150 years to enact. China has been in capitalist mode for just 20 years. 100 years ago America looked very much like China does now in regards to workplace conditions and the inability of the individual worker to do anything about it. China has the benefit however of using America and other industrialized nations as templates to model itself after. Not an easy task though in a culture that is in many ways alien to ours and even alien to each other. America is a melting pot. China is not. Chinese people don't mix well. China is so diverse culturally and ethnically that it's almost impossible for someone who doesn't study China to truly understand and grasp. Even in towns that are 20 miles apart the people in each town speak an almost completely different language.
 
Mr. Barton, you are correct that if a company attempts to force prices down that's one thing. However when it's done in an attempt to corner the market that's another. Especially when the host govt. is involved. It also takes away choice. I don't care who makes it as long as it's a good quality. I will first try an support my local business and work my self outward from there. Quality being my first concern. However I personally wouldn't be happy with any business operating in such a fashion whether it's an American, Chinese or elsewhere.
Just because you have the money or power doesn't give you the right. Good example, Bill Gates decides to make pool cases. Sells them for $5 until no one can compete. Then raises prices until someone starts another case business. Then does the same again.Sorry this doesn't sit well with me. Maybe I'm alone in that department but oh well.

I agree with you and in the USA there are laws to prevent this sort of monopolistic practice. It is however a tricky business to determine what is "unfair" and what isn't. Of course it would be unfair practice for Bill Gates to use the wealth created by the software business to deliberately lose money in order to wipe out the competition in the cue case business.

However business is not always about "fair play". Some countries have laws that say you cannot sell for less than the cost of production except under certain specific circumstances such as liquidating a business. But again enforcement is the key here.

I agree with you that unfair practices are not right. You stated however that you stay away from Chinese goods because you contend that some companies use unfair practices. So you punish all goods from a country because some companies act unfairly? Do you do the same for American goods because you and I both know that some American companies use the same unfair tactics to get an advantage over their competitors. And we both know that government plays along on both sides of the Pacific.

What I do know is that if Bill Gates did decide to wipe out the cue case industry tomorrow then I would cry about it but the last thing I would do is run to the government and ask them to protect me. I'd just have to find another line of work because the economic conditions in the cue case business changed overnight and it would no longer be feasible for me to stay in that business.

For consumers it would be great though for a short time and not great later when prices were raised higher than they were previously. This is when consumers are the ones who ask their government to break up the monopoly and allow reasonable competition.

Manufacturers should not expect or ask for economic protection from the government.

Or as Smorgasbored used to say it - "big fish eat little fish".


Edit: Forgot an important point. When a monopoly situation exists which leads to extremely high prices then consumers will often switch to alternatives or do without. This leads to losses for the monopoly and eventually also causes their demise or the rise of powerful competitors selling the alternative good.

Anyway the government's only role should be to protect the people. It's often the government however that is complicit in the price fixing and unfair trade practices that ultimately harm the people.
 
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