Made in the U.S.A.

RRfireblade said:
'Cept however , it's not always that a US retailler won't sell cheaper , it's often that he can't and still stay in business.

I'm not sure about China , thier cost of living per family house hold , thier percentages of taxation , insurance and other health care costs , etc but it's pretty steep in alot of places here. :)
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Exactly. That's the whole point. In a competitive, capitalist society only the strongest and smartest survive in business and only the smartest and most skilled employees are never out of work.

The cost of living also varies in China as well. Apartments in Shanghai are not much less than those in New York.

There is not now and never will such a thing as fixed prices in an open market. Prices fluctuate based on demand and supply UNLESS they are artificially interfered with.

When demand is high then there is a lot of incentive for more suppliers to jump in and make the thing in high demand, this drives prices down as more supply comes on the market, when prices go down it's less profitable for supplier to make the good and some of them stop doing so and this cycle continues until demand and supply reach a steady balance with just enough suppliers to profitably fill demand.

If Joe's hamburgers is the only hamburger stand in town and he charges $2 a burger and McDonalds moves in and charges $1 a burger and offers more choice then Joe can do one of two things, advertise and invite people to come and taste why Joe's Burgers are ten times better for only twice the price OR he can figure out how to lower his price and offer more. If Joe does nothing and figures he can coast on reputation then McDonalds is going to get his business and he will go under.

The United States is FULL of business who were threatened by lower priced competition and survived by changing what they do. And there are a lot of business that tried and still couldn't beat the competition and they went under. It's life.

Look at at like pool. If I am the top player in my town and another player shows up who is better then he is going to start taking away a good percentage of my tournament winnings. So I have to up my game to compete and preserve my income. Of course since he is a tough competitor I am still probably not going to be winning as much as I did before but I will still be there and still be making money. And IF I up my game to match his then I can go other places and win where I couldn't before so my money making opportunities are expanded as my range is expanded. If I don't do anything then I will simply be replaced as the top player and my income will drop possibly to the point where it's not worth it for me to attend tournaments anymore. I go out of business.

If this were all just about price then it would be easy to understand. It's not - it's about life and that isn't easy to understand. In life every person has different motivations, different aspirations, different skills and talents, and different environments which dictate how they see the world and what they need to do to survive. All of this plays into what we earn, how we earn it and how we spend it. There is no simple answer and telling people to "buy American" certainly isn't it. Because if the whole world followed that concept of "buy local" then we would be much worse off and you would see more war between countries who want the resources that another country has.

Most people don't know that we BOUGHT France's aid in the revolutionary war through promises of trade. That's right, we promised France certain trading rights if they would help the new republic throw off the British rule. Free trade is truly a cornerstone of our American way of life and the admonition to all Americans should be not "Buy American" but instead, "Buy Wisely".
 
Tennesseejoe said:
Would you encourage your own children to work in a Chinese factory?
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Certainly. However my children will know what to ask for and how to get it. If they chose to work in conditions that are unhealthy or otherwise oppressive then I will advise them to do something else. I am not going to go in and kidnap them as if they were in a cult.

And I won't let them work in the factory until they are at least 7 years old. JUST KIDDING!!

What you don't understand is that everyone in China HAS A CHOICE. No one is forced to work in any factory legally. Are there factories that employ children in unsafe conditions that are akin to slavery? Unfortunately yes. Do the police shut these places down and arrest the owners when they can - yes and no.

As I said before China is rife with corruption. As more and more people become empowered they are beginning to demand and get safer working conditions, they are demanding that child labor end and better pay. They are less and less afraid to speak out, to report violations and to protest.

As well western companies are demanding that the factories they buy from adhere to safe working environments.

All of this is having a positive effect on China's manufacturing. It's better now than it was ten years ago, better then than it was twenty years before that and will be better (and more expensive) in another ten years than it is now.

As well the Chinese citizen who is doing well is able to educate themselves on what pollution is and how it affects the environment. Two years ago we had a two day peaceful demonstration where the people of Xiamen protested a government-backed project to install a plant to produce something that would severely pollute the air. The result was that the government was forced to scrap the project and no one was shot, no one went to jail and the protesters marched in peace around Xiamen.

I would encourage everyone to work in a factory, Chinese or otherwise to gain some experience of what it's like. I worked for Kimberly-Clark making Kleenex. I am a better person for the experience.
 
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I am in favor of free trade to a point. The point is when the trade starts to affect our national security.

The steel industry is a good example. China is buying up scrap steel at above cost to take it out of the cycle and producing steel that is subsidized by the government. These actions have made the steel produced in China very low costs that you will see steel business in the US go under.

I know the steel industry has done thing to contribute to their demise but this making the slide down the slope faster for US steel.

What would we have done in WWII if we could not have produced steel?
 
will8834 said:
I am in favor of free trade to a point. The point is when the trade starts to affect our national security.

The steel industry is a good example. China is buying up scrap steel at above cost to take it out of the cycle and producing steel that is subsidized by the government. These actions have made the steel produced in China very low costs that you will see steel business in the US go under.

I know the steel industry has done thing to contribute to their demise but this making the slide down the slope faster for US steel.

What would we have done in WWII if we could not have produced steel?
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I agree with you in matters of national security.

I don't understand the steel thing? If no one is buying the scrap steel at home then what should be done with it? Should the US Government be buying up all the scrap steel? At what prices? If steel is such a big thing for us to have reserves of then the government should have them. We have government owned reserves of oil and other resources so why not steel?

But beyond that why shouldn't American businesses export their scrap steel to China if China is buying? We also used to sell our recyclables to China which they returned as consumer goods but right now China can't process them due to lower demand for consumer goods so they slowed down the buying.

Actually China has it's own demands for steel that are barely being met by the Chinese steel industry. Building all the stadiums and the Beijing airport at one point caused a shortage in steel that halted many other projects around China. Source: The Discovery Channel: MegaStructures.

As for what would happen if we couldn't produce steel?

That very topic is the centerpiece of the great book Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand, which also points out how government cannot run industry.
 
Newton said:
I have not read the whole thread but here is a earlier thread about the topic:http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=88101

And I'm still waiting on a evaluation Q from someone in the above thread :-)

K
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:-) We needed another year to finally get it right. It will be in the mail tomorrow tracking number in two days. Don't ask why the tracking number comes in two days it's a China thing.

All I know is that imported pool cues don't threaten national security and that the pool cue making sector in the USA has grown steadily for the past 20 years. The rise of hundreds of small cue makers is as much competition to USA based mass producers as imports are.

If anything having a sub-$100 class of cues stimulates pool playing and related expenditures in the pool industry.
 
John, just curious about your opinion on this. America's time has passed and the boom has long been over but China is booming. You say that people will demand better pay and work conditions but then the outsource of labor to China will not be so cheap and companies will go elsewhere maybe even back to the USA where labor might end up being cheaper 10 years from now.

From looking at history you have a society that is doing better then the rest of the world and then collapses as America is now and then others prosper and the wheel keeps turning and things come full circle. I think China and India are countries that will prosper because of all the people being put to work and the revenue increasing while America tries to figure out a solution to the problem we are having.
 
will8834 said:
I am in favor of free trade to a point. The point is when the trade starts to affect our national security.

The steel industry is a good example. China is buying up scrap steel at above cost to take it out of the cycle and producing steel that is subsidized by the government. These actions have made the steel produced in China very low costs that you will see steel business in the US go under.

I know the steel industry has done thing to contribute to their demise but this making the slide down the slope faster for US steel.

What would we have done in WWII if we could not have produced steel?
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I see your point, but really, doesn't China have a right to do what they do? In a capitalism, firms are free to use these kinds of tactics to take out competition. Borrowing John's example of a burger joint, with a twist, if you had a burger joint, say, Joe's Burgers in a small town and suddenly Tom opened up Tom's Burgers and charged 80% of what you did, does he have a right to? What if Tom has a nest egg saved up and decides to use it to take out the competition (you) by charging 30% of what you charge, even though he is taking losses in the short run? Does he not have the right to? Demanding that China stop undercutting and "destroying" American businesses is like Joe telling Tom to cut it out. Best case outcome of that scenario is that the two collude and form a cartel, and the consumer gets screwed.
 
Quality of Craftsmanship

Is everyone arguing that I get the same quality of workmanship/craftsmanship for $2.00 a day?

The same level of workmanship/craftsmanship that I would get in the U.S.A. ???
 
JB Cases said:
Do you work hard to be this ignorant or does it just come naturally?

You have no effing clue you effing moron. This is the only type of commentary you understand apparently.

How many Chinese factory owners do you know? That's right NONE.

You are about as big an idiot that ever posted anything on this forum and believe there have been some doozies.

I mean seriously where do get off making statements like this?

Now you pissed me off. I really honestly hope that you find your way towards meeting me someday so that you can repeat all your ignorant comments to me personally. Because if you have the nuts to do so then you and I will be mixing it up. I will probably have the worst of it but buddy you will know you were in a fight. I would bet that you won't repeat anything you have said to me on this forum though. I am pretty sure that you are nothing but another frustrated keyboard warrior.
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Um I'm pretty sure his comment that you ripped had real value.

In 2004 by the government's own reckoning, more than 6,700 miners died in accidents last year, about 18 per day -- and experts say the real figure is probably twice that. The fatality rates in China's mines are as much as 350 times those in the United States and Britain, according to government reports.

And last year 3200 people died in china working the mines...a 15% improvement over 2008.

I don't know about you but that shows me the government and industry over there is only worried about revenue....

The whole argument should not be about money, its about supporting your neighbor, and the WHOLE COST OF THINGS...not just monetarily. I would defiantly not support a country that kills its people for profit. I would rather support an american that has kids to feed and add money to OUR economy. Same reason why states try to use local companies to do large projects...so money stays in the community. Not that your never going to outsource, but if its possible keep your money here.

I work in the oilfield...I build and connect all the safety systems, and my father operates the whole platform, at the same time even tho we "kill" ourselves out there we keep safety in mind so no one gets hurt. When people do get hurt or die they and their families get taken care of . In our trade we are basically the last of the american cowboy, out in the middle of no where just making sure you guy's and gals get to drive everyday. If you want to just get everything cheaper then lets just quit drilling for oil and purchase it from china, and russia, africa, the middle east, lets import it ALL. I'll just go do something else I guess.

It's not all about money...thats just the answer to 99 out of 100 questions. But what about the 100th question, would you buy chinese coal if it was a 10th of the price? I would not, why? Because they kill for it. They destroy their land, forests, kill people for it etc...I will not support an whole heartedly evil government. Thats right I said it EVIL...now who wants a piece of that. Buy where ever you want, its your choice just know that even if the product is cheaper and say it was the same quality.....at what cost did that product come? Supporting china is like supporting PETA...why would I want to support PETA when they kill 99.9% of the animals that they take in, when they supposedly give them away for adoption. JUST THINK OF THE REAL COSTS BESIDES MONEY.

You have to lead by example, isn't that what this country is all about? Like I said to me its wrong to do business when people are dying and getting hurt because of it. I don't want money if thats how its gonna work. I don't care if its as simple as the factory that made that super awesome cheap couch you wanted for a third of the price, if they got their electricty from that blood coal, then it aint for me brother...its not for me.
 
jcommie said:
I see your point, but really, doesn't China have a right to do what they do? In a capitalism, firms are free to use these kinds of tactics to take out competition. Borrowing John's example of a burger joint, with a twist, if you had a burger joint, say, Joe's Burgers in a small town and suddenly Tom opened up Tom's Burgers and charged 80% of what you did, does he have a right to? What if Tom has a nest egg saved up and decides to use it to take out the competition (you) by charging 30% of what you charge, even though he is taking losses in the short run? Does he not have the right to? Demanding that China stop undercutting and "destroying" American businesses is like Joe telling Tom to cut it out. Best case outcome of that scenario is that the two collude and form a cartel, and the consumer gets screwed.
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I loved how you put that and the whole Burger CARTEL, well that is just a hilarious pairing of words. Great Post. Dont you fella's mess around or the hamburgler is gonna come a knocking...and you won't like it.
 
JB Cases said:
greyghost said:
So you routinely pay more for the same service to support your neighbors?

If your state created a rule that you couldn't buy anything for your cue business that is not made in your state then you would protest that they have no right to limit your freedom to purchase your supplies where you want to. Yet here you are calling people cheap because they exercise their right to purchase where they want to and from whom they want to at whatever price they can get. What do you call a person who elects to buy a cue from another maker in another state and PAYS MORE than you charge. Either way you are not getting any of that money?

Do you refuse an order that comes from out of state? Do you tell that customer to buy local and support his neighbor? What if you are the less expensive alternative? Do you tell your customer that he is "CHEAP" when he wants to buy your cue because it is less than his local cue maker charges?



And this has to do with the topic in what sense? You are upset because a customer voiced his opinion about purchasing from you? Maybe the guy just doesn't like you and chooses not to give you his money. Whatever, make good cues and you will have business from plenty of others who recognize the value.



Maybe he is pissed because you are putting down his cue. Maybe to him this cue is just fine. However if you make a good cue and he tries it then maybe he will convert to your cue. But probably not when you basically treat him like an ignorant cheap-ass because he owns an import cue that you label as junk. If it's a $200 cue then it's probably not junk by the way.



Really? I have been in this business for 20 years. I have sold MANY MANY MANY American brands that I used to IMPORT into Germany. I can tell you plenty of stories about problems with AMERICAN MADE cues that I had to take care of with a loss of profit. And this goes for mass-production brands and custom brands. In one case I bought 10 highly regarded name brand (all one brand) cues from a dealer and on all ten of them the joints came off easily. In another I had a custom cue made for a customer and the cue came in with a loud buzz in it. For another FAMOUS and HIGHLY REGARDED brand I watched the cue fall on a carpeted floor and break cleanly (no splinters) below the joint. The maker agreed that the wood was defective and replaced the cue.

There are plenty of American cuemakers who build a poor quality product. So that dog don't hunt. What you end up doing PERSONALLY will be reflected in the product you put out but don't try to apply your personal conviction to the whole nation. Not everyone thinks like you do.



That's understandable. I get upset when someone disrespects my work as well. But I don't immediately transfer that individual's remarks onto people as a whole. So you would rather wipe out all the Wal-Mart's and replace them with only mom-and-pop's who will extend credit? Have you thought about WHY the mom-and-pop's need to extend credit is because their customer base is underpaid or unemployed? When Wal-Mart comes to town they create jobs and save people money. (and no I am not pro-Wal-Mart, but I am pro-FACT). Wal Mart has plenty of faults but they also have plenty of benefits.



See you are confusing community with economy. Most of don't hesitate to offer hospitality to others, even foreigners. I have been around the world and had foreigner strangers help me out in many ways. In turn I do the same for friends and strangers when I can. That's community and it's not just American.

One thing that everyone forgets is that despite the amount of imported cues being sold in the USA the USA has the HIGHEST amount of cue makers and cue repair shops in the world. In addition to the mass production shops that are still in business and have been for 30+ years, there are literally hundreds of small to medium sized cuemakers and hundreds of cue repair shops. Try to get a cue repaired in China and you are likely to be out of luck and have very little choice.

Another thing that you forget is that a greater amount of cues sold means that there will be more work for cue makers doing repairs and upgrades. I have seen people spend $150 putting a stack wrap on a $100 import cue. People routinely buy high dollar shafts for their import cues, they routinely change the wrap, ferrules, tips, etc...

You are being overly dramatic about the situation. Simply look at EVERY person who NOW OWNS an import cue as a potential customer. You show them the merits of your cue and they buy it and sell their cue to someone else who needs a cheap cue and that person also becomes a potential customer for you down the line. That's how the world really works, not the doom and dour way you presented it.
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If you support another neighborhood based on cheaper price, then whats going to happen to your neighborhood...including its values, quailty of life etc...and is the loss of that neighborhood going to instill its values, quality of life etc, into the other neighborhood? No because they were probably just out to get your money in the first place.
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JB Cases said:
Exactly. That's the whole point. In a competitive, capitalist society only the strongest and smartest survive in business and only the smartest and most skilled employees are never out of work.

The cost of living also varies in China as well. Apartments in Shanghai are not much less than those in New York.

There is not now and never will such a thing as fixed prices in an open market. Prices fluctuate based on demand and supply UNLESS they are artificially interfered with.

When demand is high then there is a lot of incentive for more suppliers to jump in and make the thing in high demand, this drives prices down as more supply comes on the market, when prices go down it's less profitable for supplier to make the good and some of them stop doing so and this cycle continues until demand and supply reach a steady balance with just enough suppliers to profitably fill demand.

If Joe's hamburgers is the only hamburger stand in town and he charges $2 a burger and McDonalds moves in and charges $1 a burger and offers more choice then Joe can do one of two things, advertise and invite people to come and taste why Joe's Burgers are ten times better for only twice the price OR he can figure out how to lower his price and offer more. If Joe does nothing and figures he can coast on reputation then McDonalds is going to get his business and he will go under.

The United States is FULL of business who were threatened by lower priced competition and survived by changing what they do. And there are a lot of business that tried and still couldn't beat the competition and they went under. It's life.

Look at at like pool. If I am the top player in my town and another player shows up who is better then he is going to start taking away a good percentage of my tournament winnings. So I have to up my game to compete and preserve my income. Of course since he is a tough competitor I am still probably not going to be winning as much as I did before but I will still be there and still be making money. And IF I up my game to match his then I can go other places and win where I couldn't before so my money making opportunities are expanded as my range is expanded. If I don't do anything then I will simply be replaced as the top player and my income will drop possibly to the point where it's not worth it for me to attend tournaments anymore. I go out of business.

If this were all just about price then it would be easy to understand. It's not - it's about life and that isn't easy to understand. In life every person has different motivations, different aspirations, different skills and talents, and different environments which dictate how they see the world and what they need to do to survive. All of this plays into what we earn, how we earn it and how we spend it. There is no simple answer and telling people to "buy American" certainly isn't it. Because if the whole world followed that concept of "buy local" then we would be much worse off and you would see more war between countries who want the resources that another country has.

Most people don't know that we BOUGHT France's aid in the revolutionary war through promises of trade. That's right, we promised France certain trading rights if they would help the new republic throw off the British rule. Free trade is truly a cornerstone of our American way of life and the admonition to all Americans should be not "Buy American" but instead, "Buy Wisely".
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"BUY WISELY" is a very well put comment tap tap my friend, I couldn't have put it better. That is very strong indeed, we chose to buy that trade agreement to overthrow a tyrannical government. Money is not the only thing to take into account when "Buying Wisely", would we have bought a product made by Natzi's which in turn supported their cash flow...but not all germans were bad people they just had no choice or die. We don't want to buy drugs like opium from the middle east do you and support terrorists do we?

Then why support a communist government that runs everything over there for their own gain, while putting their own people much less the world to the side over their own mission for money and world power. Of course we buy things from there, I just try and keep it to a minimum. I'd rather buy steel from here...its better. Do we want proof?

The last chinese 314 stainless steel tubing I got offshore I threw 1000' of it away at GREAT cost to my employer...why because The I.D. was horribly off, the stuff bend in my hands because it was paper thin and there were pin holes all over in it. If I had not looked at it before hand, my project could have KILLED every f&^%*$g person on that platform. Yet when I buy american seamless stainless steel made in Tulsa, Oklahoma, USA. You dam right it costs a TON, but its prettier lol, its stronger, the tolerances are super high and for all good reason...I don't have to worry if anyones gonna get killed over a dollar, or that its going to mess up other equipment. When I buy an american cue from a reputable guy, It preforms. When we buy that asian cue off ebay for 350 with amboyna we get....well tell me how that cue preformed in the fireplace...but hey we saved $300 right? I'd rather spend too much and get the best product, than spend less and get some half-a#@ed product that wont last, wont perform right etc, has lead in it, etc.
 
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JB Cases said:
Is it silly? I have better things to do with my time as well but I refuse to allow people on this board to distort the facts with emotional guilt trips.

The fact is that you are done because you cannot refute the facts presented. When your "personal philosophy" is challenged then you can't defend it adequately.

I don't find it silly to imply that those who don't make every attempt to "buy American" are not patriotic.

Those who espouse such a sentiment are out of touch with the reality of the situation.

The plain cold hard and TRUE fact is that if you want to export your goods to other lands then you need to import an equal amount. Or to put it another way, to insure a peaceful and prosperous co-existence with the rest of the world - starting with the next town over, we have to trade with the rest of the world FREELY.

And dispense with the emotional and untrue dogma.
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John, you're all fired up as usual, but I think you're picking on the wrong guy here. He stated that he tries to buy american but acknowledges people should have the choice to do as they please.

The only one I see getting emotional here (between you two anyways) is you.

Interesting bit about the Mandarin, I will get the book. My cousin was best friends with a Native American when I was a kid and the first time I met him I was shocked to find out he had no Asian in him at. His family was pure Native American for as far back as they could remember. He lived on a reservation outside of Albuquerque. He looked Asian to me.
 
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