made this shot, but not sure how
- Thread starter fan-tum
- Start date
I would think alot of right hand english. 
It went because the friction of the collision on a cut shot puts spin onto the object ball. In this case that object ball would spin clockwise, same as left english. Left english on the object ball will make it hit the rail like that and come back to the pocket.
Any english on the cueball will also transfer to the object ball and give it the reverse type spin. So if you had right english on the cue ball, it would transfer to the object ball as left english. If you used right english on the cue ball for this shot, the object ball picked up a "double dose" of left english because of the cue ball english, and the friction from the cut.
Any english on the cueball will also transfer to the object ball and give it the reverse type spin. So if you had right english on the cue ball, it would transfer to the object ball as left english. If you used right english on the cue ball for this shot, the object ball picked up a "double dose" of left english because of the cue ball english, and the friction from the cut.
This is a great shot, but you actually hit the rail before you hit the object ball. I like using right english on this shot. This same shot can be made along the long rail as well. They're both great shots to know if you play one pocket.
Freddy's dvds will show you how to make these shots and then some that will just blow your mind.
Freddy's dvds will show you how to make these shots and then some that will just blow your mind.
He almost certainly hit the ball first, not the rail. Hitting the rail before the object ball will impart collision induced right english onto the object ball, the opposite of what is needed to pocket it as shown. He would have had to have hit the cue ball with enough right english so that when it transferred the left english to the object ball, the object ball picked up enough left english to not only overcome the collision induced right english, but had enough left english left over when it hit the side rail to make it reverse direction and come back into the pocket.trendkill said:
This does not even take into consideration that if you hit the rail first and caught the object ball slightly from behind, the collision induced throw will want to make the object ball hit the rail slightly farther from the corner pocket, which would require even more left english to have been transferred to the object ball to also overcome the slightly steeper angle.
I am not saying hitting the rail first and making this shot is not possible, but hitting the object ball first makes the shot a natural even with little or no right english on the cue ball, and is much more likely what happened.
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This is a useful 1-pocket shot. It is discussed in the Beard's banking book, as well as Joplings 1-h video(s).fan-tum said:
If the 1 is not frozen to the rail, cutting the 1 ball in the direction indicated creates "reverse" spin, enabling this shot to go. Keep in mind, the speed you hit this shot is just as important as where you hit the one ball. The softer you hit it, the less this ball will go in. At some point it will just rebound parallel to the end rail. If so, hit it a tad harder.
As mentioned, this shot also works the long way. But you do not hit the rail first. It is a ball first hit. Also, you don't need any right english. A "dead ball" will make this shot. You can use english, but it would be for positioning the cue ball more than making the object ball.
Lastly, although I typically agree with Randy, I do not believe rail crush plays any role in this shot since it is a one rail bank. If you shot the 3 railer from here, it may be a different story.
-td
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I don't think I've ever seen the term "rail crush" used in print. Shamos, in his illustrated dictionary, lists 15 terms that begin with "rail" but none ends in "crush." What does it mean?td873 said:
While the shot was probably made with transferred spin on the object ball, sometimes a player gets lucky and makes the ball off the point of the pocket. At a room where I used to play, the rails were sort of rounded by the corner pockets, and the rounding would help you make the shot. Perhaps the OP could tell us whether the object ball hit the flat part of the rail or partly hit the pocket corner.
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As others have mentioned, it is possible to transfer side spin from the cue ball to the object ball. It's not the "spinning like a top" side spin that you sometimes see on cue balls, but when the object ball gets to a cushion, it is enough side spin to change the bank angle by 5 degrees or so. Five degrees is five inches in the length of your cue stick, so this can make a significant difference even in short banks like you show.fan-tum said:
Side spin can be transferred by either the cut angle -- you did not need any spin on the cue ball to get spin on the object ball in the shot you show -- or by hitting the object ball full and using some side spin on the cue ball. A surprising result is that you don't want to use super side spin on the cue ball for this because at high RPMs, the ball-ball friction goes down and you end up with less net spin on the object ball.
You may want to look up "Vernon Elliot's Bank Shot" for another transferred-spin bank situation.
Bob Jewett said:
That is surprising, and good to know.
Seems we have a difference of opinion - how rare is that on AZB?
I believe you can hit this shot either way: rail or ball first, but you have to hit them slightly differently.
If you hit ball first (to bank it off the end rail into the side rail past the corner pocket) you'll put left-side collision-induced spin on the OB, but some of the collision-induced spin will be killed by friction with the end rail, so you might have to add right spin on the CB to get enough left spin on the OB.
If you hit slightly rail first (aim the cut like the rail isn't there) you can still hit the OB "going in", while the CB is compressing the cushion (before it begins to rebound), again giving the OB left spin from the collision but cutting it past the upper corner pocket rather than banking it off the end rail. This way you probably don't need to add any sidespin on the CB; the collision-induced spin on the OB is enough.
You can also hit rail first farther from the OB, but then you don't hit the OB until the CB is already rebounding (like Poolplaya9 says), which puts right sidespin (the wrong kind) on the OB unless you put some right spin on the CB. This would be my last choice for how to shoot this shot.
pj
chgo
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Seems that none of us may have a difference of opinion after all. It all depends on exactly how far off the rail the object ball is (a quarter or even an eighth inch difference from the rail could make all the difference on what is possible and what likely occured). I saw the object ball as being off the rail just barely enough to be able to cut it as shown before the cueball (or simultaneously) hit the end rail, and without the object ball having to hit the end rail. Based on Pat's answer it seems that he saw the object ball as being closer to the rail than I did, in which case I agree with his responses.Patrick Johnson said:
When Trendkill said rail first (with no clarifier that it was still hitting the cueball on the way in), I read it to mean rail first and into the object ball on the way out because I saw the object ball as being off the rail just enough to cut it over without it hitting the end rail. If Trendkill saw the object ball as being frozen or closer to the rail than I thought and meant rail first but still hitting the object ball on the way in, I agree with him that it could be the way this shot was made. If he did in fact mean hitting it on the way out as I initially thought, I still agreed that it could be done but that it was not likely what happend in this case where the guy made the shot on accident and was not sure why it went.
The shot was almost certainly made because the cueball hit the object ball on the way in. Whether or not the cueball actually made contact with the rail or object ball first is just a matter of exactly how far off the rail the object ball was. Knowing how much right english he had on the shot would give us a clue.
You show banking a ball frozen to the middle of the short rail. In my experience, this shot is more or less impossible without either hitting the point of the corner pocket or having chalk on the balls. Is the diagram accurate?DennyS said:When I'm working with a student and we're working on Banks. I like to refer it to Pinching it in to the rail. On that particular shot.Here is the example of the shot that we have worked on in class.
The bank goes when the ball is frozen Bob. I saw a video of the Beard doing it like it was a puzzle so I tried it out. Its just really low percentage. It works best for me with just a tiny bit of right english and stun-shot cueing on the vertical axis to transfer maximum spin to the object ball (as you know, maximum english doesn't help here). Even if you hit it good, you still have to get a bit lucky for enough spin to be imparted to the object ball.
I'd never shoot this in a serious game.
I'd never shoot this in a serious game.