Magic Rack and Joshua Filler's 7-pack

JAM

JAM

I am the storm
Silver Member
Though today I am a railbird, I used to play, competing on the leagues and in local tournaments., I also went on the road a few years in the '80s with a road player. As such, I really do understand all games of pocket billiards.

I made a thread on my Facebook page about Joshua Filler's 7-pack, and much to my surprise, my other half posted on my thread he thought the Magic Rack shouldn't be allowed. I asked him privately why. Well, I thought about it. Doesn't the Magic Rack create the perfect rack with no cracks? Doesn't a pool player have to break perfectly each time in order for the wing ball to fly in the side? In comparison, when pins are racked in a bowling alley, doesn't the bowler have to hit them perfeclty in order to make a strike?

Some pros today practice their breaks. I saw Earl Strickland do it over and over again at many tournaments. Shane Van Boening is also a break mechanic. The break, at least in my eyes today, is just as important as having the ability to run out. Without a good break, even if you can run out, you will never be able to dominate. The break is THAT important.

In my eyes, the only way the Magic rack cannot be perfect is if the placement is off a few millimeters on the spot. By my own admission, I've never played pool with a Magic Rack and would enjoy hearing thoughts from others who have.

magic-ball-rack-matchroom-nineball-official-rack~3.jpg
 
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sjm said:
Let's throw out Molina Mike's conspiracy theory out with last night's garbage. Using the "everyone fiddles with the rack" argument here is just plain disrespectful to Filler, already one of the greatest players of all time. As is so often noted on this forum, however, the haters will hate. At least Panozzo researched the matter before subscribing to this fiction.

SVBs view is the same as most of us. Josh was giving himself the same rack everyone else was getting, but Josh figured it out better. As I noted in my post, it's fair to argue that the conditions were too easy for those accustomed to a tighter break box and tighter pockets, but the playing field was fair, and sure enough, the guy who won the DCC 9ball last year won this year. Nobody has ever found a field, a set of playing conditions or a tournament format where Filler can't beat them all.

The real issue here is that the Derby City 9ball is a 500-player event, and these conditions are appropriate for over 90% of them. As we saw, the time they went tighter, the Derby City 9ball finished at about 10:00 AM the day after it was meant to end, so going with tighter pockets is not an option.
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He saw it b4 anybody else did. Nuff said.
 
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white1 said:
Scheduling problems should not be a reason to consider making the game more difficult for everyone but still fair.
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but it's a pro-am and that's very much the spirit of the event. they tried tighter pockets and it didn't work well with the non-pros. tighter break box would be doable
 
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JAM said:
Breaking news [pun intended]. Windows Open's "Derby City Recap Show" dropped with Molina Mike and Mike Panozzo, and there was a brief back-and-forth about Joshua Filler's consecutive break-and-runs:

MOLINA MIKE: I hate this notion that because it's Josh that it's low-hanging fruit to talk shit about him. You know what I mean? And it really is with some of the guys.

MIKE PANOZZO: If it's Josh, if there's one–if there's one person who doesn't have to cheat to run eight racks, it's Josh, you know.

MOLINA MIKE: Well, but he was doing something different. You could obviously tell that.

I mean, he was doing it quickly, but he was doing something different. You know, but he just figured it out before anybody else did.

But I guarantee you, had anybody else done it, had anybody else cracked that code, they would have just as well been doing that same thing. And there's like this—there's like this culture with, you know—but what's the saying, Mike? There's no—there's no honor amongst thieves, you know, because—

MIKE PANOZZO: Right.

MOLINA MIKE: —people have been gapping the balls for forever, right? You'll see that every time they're racking one pocket, trying to get that wing ball to not fly out. You'll see it in 10-ball for them to try to put the slightest gap behind the back two balls. You'll see it in 9-ball whenever they're manipulating the template.

And like I mentioned online, Americans more than anyone play this format where you're racking with the template yourself, you know?

MIKE PANOZZO: Yeah.

MOLINA MIKE: So, like, they ought to know more than anybody how to get it done. And you'll see that constantly whenever you're playing these regional events. You know, guys are there rubbing the balls, and they're doing this number here. They're doing it for a reason, Mike.

MIKE PANOZZO: Yeah. Well, here's an interesting—while we were talking—I messaged Shane.

MOLINA MIKE: You messaged Shane? Okay. What did Shane say?

MIKE PANOZZO: I just asked him, you know, in your opinion, was Josh gapping the rack playing you? I know you were checking the rack out. Was he doing anything funny? He said, "No, it was strictly the case of the old break box."

MOLINA MIKE: Is that what he said?

MIKE PANOZZO: Yep.

MOLINA MIKE: Well, then that kind of puts it to rest right there because he had—he had front-row seats to what Josh was doing.

MIKE PANOZZO: Standing there looking at the rack. So yeah, he said it was—

MOLINA MIKE: He did it Rack 1, and he did it—I want to say at the end of the match as well. Am I wrong?

MIKE PANOZZO: Could be something like that. So yeah, it was strictly a matter of him of, you know, not having to break from the box, which I think a lot of players didn't know going into. At least Alex didn't know, and so, you know, yeah.

MOLINA MIKE: Well, that's an interesting point of view. If Shane said that to you—and I'm betting that he did, because that changes the whole perspective there, Mike, you know?

MIKE PANOZZO: Yeah.

SOURCE:
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=631541716032788
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what svb says is literally gospel when it comes to breaking. he's the foremost break scholar in the world. i hope the DCC listens to that and adopts the narrower break box next year
 
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skogstokig said:
what svb says is literally gospel when it comes to breaking. he's the foremost break scholar in the world. i hope the DCC listens to that and adopts the narrower break box next year
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I am so glad you interpreted the excerpt of the Window's Open podcast. That is EXACTLY why I posted it.
 
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sjm said:
Let's throw out Molina Mike's conspiracy theory out with last night's garbage. Using the "everyone fiddles with the rack" argument here is just plain disrespectful to Filler, already one of the greatest players of all time. As is so often noted on this forum, however, the haters will hate. At least Panozzo researched the matter before subscribing to this fiction.

SVBs view is the same as most of us. Josh was giving himself the same rack everyone else was getting, but Josh figured it out better. As I noted in my post, it's fair to argue that the conditions were too easy for those accustomed to a tighter break box and tighter pockets, but the playing field was fair, and sure enough, the guy who won the DCC 9ball last year won this year. Nobody has ever found a field, a set of playing conditions or a tournament format where Filler can't beat them all.

The real issue here is that the Derby City 9ball is a 500-player event, and these conditions are appropriate for over 90% of them. As we saw, the time they went tighter, the Derby City 9ball finished at about 10:00 AM the day after it was meant to end, so going with tighter pockets is not an option.
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Stu, I may be wrong, but I think you may have misinterpreted Molina Mike. I do not believe he was disrespecting or saying Joshua was manipulating the rack, but I do think he was saying that pros do it. And I agree with him. I did provide the link of the entire podcast, and if one listens to it in its entirely, it may provide better clarity, I hope. :)

For what it's worth, Molina Mike is right about rack manipulation. I have listened to over a dozen American pool players, most of them pros, talk about not only racking the balls with the cracks to their advantage, but they have figured out how to break those balls depending on where the cracks are at. Those in the know are well aware of who the rack mechanics are on the tournament trail. When Joe Tucker's book came out, "Racking Secrets," it put a spotlight on this topic. ;)

One of my biggest bugaboos with Keith McCready's playing style when we were on the tournament trail was his lack of observation when the balls were racked. Before each and every match, I'd say, "Check the rack. Don't forget to check the rack. Check the rack. Check the rack," because it was a well-known fact that some players were manipulating the rack. And whether it was short-term memory or the fact that Keith was so caught up in the heat of the moment that he'd neglect to check the rack, he'd often get slugged. At the U.S. Open, I remember setting next to Don Steele's wife, Paula, and we were watching Keith's match. When his opponent was racking the balls, I was sitting about 10 feet from the table, and I yelled out (not too loud, I thought), "Check the rack." Keith looked up at me and said, "What? What did you say?" with a scowl on his face. Eveyrbody stared at me. I could feel my face get hot, beet red. Paula said, "Don't worry about it. He loves you." I was so embarrassed.

At a Joss Turning Stone event, he was playing Johnny Archer, and the two of them almost got into fisticuffs about the rack. Every time Keith would rack, Johnny would walk up, look at the rack, and then say, "Nope. Do it again." Keith was getting frustrated and thought Johnny was trying to shark him. After about six or seven rack attempts by Keith, they started arguing loudly. Finally, they sent in a neutral racker. Keith got beat, and at the end of the match, with Keith's cue case in hand, I walked over to him so he could insert his cues. But I was so upset at his behavior that my emotions got the best of me, and I started crying. How embarrasssing! I couldn't hold back the tears for some reason. To his credit, Johnny walked over to me and shared some kind words, which I will never, ever forget.

Then there was the time that Mika Immonen was racking for Keith in a match, and I yelled out from the stands, once more to Keith, "Check the rack." Mika looked up at me in the stands and gave me a glare. I know I should have kept my mouth shut, but Keith was getting slugged left and right at every event. One unnamed pro actually advised Keith to read Joe Tucker's book, that it might help him from getting slugged.

Look at these two old YouTube videos with Keith and Earl. Keith doesn't even look at the rack with Earl, though Earl will give it a brief glance. If I had been there, I would be doing the same, "Check the rack. Check, the rack. Check the rack." But back then, rack mechanics were not as abundant as they are today.

 
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iusedtoberich said:
This is the biggest BS ever, IMO. Gapping the rack!? With a magic rack, the balls are MORE DEAD then ever if every ball is frozen! Gapping the rack intentionally has got to be the dumbest thing to do.

Furthermore, all the railbirds, including Molina Mike, saying "rubbing the ball" "manipulating the ball" "feathering the ball" is cheating, etc, that is more bs. Have these guys ever racked a rack of balls in their lives? You HAVE to do that to get them TIGHT!

The quickest and most pain free way to rack a magic rack is to get the rack straight, then put the one in. Then without much regard to accuracy, simply throw the reamaining 8 balls in place. There will be a lot of gaps. Then, nudge all the corners of the rack and it will freeze them all. Its super quick, and super easy, and results in a dead tight rack!

I played in the Pennsylvania Open, a MR satellite event, that had a lot of the pro refs hired in to do the officiating and racking. 1 ref per 4 tables. I couldn't believe how they were racking. It was brutal watching them as a player. They'd put the one in, then the two balls behind it, super carefully. Do one ball at a time, making sure it was frozen, for every single ball. It was such a complete waste of time. I was thinking to myself these guys (and gals) must have never played before!

Edit: this is with the original Magic Ball Rack brand rack, and its knockoffs that have the same diamond shaped cutouts and cutout directions. The Outsville rack has the cutouts pointing the wrong way, and the balls don't lean agains each other. I have no idea why he made it that way. Makes zero sense to me.
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I have zero experience with the Magic Rack. It is good to know that it is impossible to gap the rack with the Magic Rack. I think Molina Mike was referring to the rack mechanics that were not using the Magic Rack, but I may be wrong. It is common knowledge that rack mechanics do exist.

Interesting about the referees. I agree with you that the referees may need a lesson on how to rack. I often wondered about that when the referees were racking on Mathcroom WNT events.

I wonder if snooker ever has problems like this. I've never, ever seen a snooker pro walk up and check the rack. 😁
 
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JAM said:
Stu, I may be wrong, but I think you may have misinterpreted Molina Mike. I do not believe he was disrespecting or saying Joshua was manipulating the rack, but I do think he was saying that pros do it. And I agree with him. I did provide the link of the entire podcast, and if one listens to it in its entirely, it may provide better clarity, I hope. :)

For what it's worth, Molina Mike is right about rack manipulation. I have listened to over a dozen American pool players, most of them pros, talk about not only racking the balls with the cracks to their advantage, but they have figured out how to break those balls depending on where the cracks are at. Those in the know are well aware of who the rack mechanics are on the tournament trail. When Joe Tucker's book came out, "Racking Secrets," it put a spotlight on this topic. ;)
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Let's start with this. Molina Mike has a big fan in me and I'm always recommending his podcast to friends of mine who are keen on pro pool and I will continue to do so. But that said ....

The unsavory history of racking is not relevant to the matter of whether the magic rack was manipulated by Filler. As Panozzo determined before subscribing to the notion that Josh was doing anything different, he checked with Shane. Shane says he wasn't, and I've yet to hear anyone suggest that the Magic Rack even CAN BE manipulated.

No, this debate has nothing to do with racking, but instead the wider break box, which taken in conjunction with the looser pockets, made conditions easy for those like Josh and Shane that have grown accustomed to the Matchroom break box and tighter pockets.
 
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vintagecollectibles831 said:
I tried looking for the match, but could not find it. However, the match before that, Filler played Alex Pagulayan, and beat him 9-2. Think he ran a 4 pack during that match. It was pretty cool. Alex only had a few opportunities at the table, the entire match.
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I was super pleased to see pags at the top end of the pile.

That's a bad dude.

(I liked the Shuff stuff better though)
 
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sjm said:
Let's start with this. Molina Mike has a big fan in me and I'm always recommending his podcast to friends of mine who are keen on pro pool and I will continue to do so. But that said ....

The unsavory history of racking is not relevant to the matter of whether the magic rack was manipulated by Filler. As Panozzo determined before subscribing to the notion that Josh was doing anything different, he checked with Shane. Shane says he wasn't, and I've yet to hear anyone suggest that the Magic Rack even CAN BE manipulated.

No, this debate has nothing to do with racking, but instead the narrow break box, which taken in conjunction with the looser pockets, made conditions easy for those like Josh and Shane that have grown accustomed to the Matchroom break box and tighter pockets.
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I'm glad you provided more clarity in your post. Words in black and white print are sometimes misinterpreted, I think, in our wonderful world of social media and pool forums. I had thought you meant that Molina Mike was demeaning Joshua, and I did not have that takeaway from his remarks, but that's just my take on his remarks. :)

And for what it's worth, I continue to like, share, and have nice things to say online about both Fillers, especially while Joshua Filler was being cyberbullied, but they do not seem to respond to their fans the way Fedor, Kristina, Savannah, Sofia, Kelly, David Alcaide, FSR, Sky, Mickey, Billy, and most all junior players do.

But I digress. I truly do not think Molina Mike was incinuating there was hanky panky going on. He was, however, saying how much rack manipulation happens and is an ongoing problem.
 
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jasonlaus said:
They haven't done it without their opponent running out the set...so
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ShortBusRuss said:
And the point is.. There is NO "incentive" to go for running out the set. If YOU can put down a 5 pack.... So can your opponent. So, if you get a shot that is a little iffy in that 6th rack.. You play safe, because you don't get "anything" for attempting to run out the set. And if you don't put the shot down, then you may very well pay for your lack of judgement by seeing your opponent put a package down, and then play a lock up safe on you.
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Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying, but the incentive to running out the set is that there's no way on earth any player is the favorite to break and run nine racks in a row to send it to a one rack playoff. Can it happen? Of course. But based on the simple fact that there's been well over 10,000 nine ball matches played in The Derby over the years and it's never happened, I'd have to say the chances of it happening are well below 50% for any player.

Having said that, I do agree that playing safe is usually the right choice when facing an iffy shot. But there are a lot of factors that go into that decision. I mean, if I'm up 8-0 I'm going for the shot because I like my odds of getting one game before my opponent can get nine.
 
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decent dennis said:
It wasn’t a magic rack!!!
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What was not a Magic Rack? I'm not sure I follow. Are you sayign the match between Joshua Filler and Shane Van Boening in the 2025 Derby City Classic did not use a Magic Rack?

I referenced Joe Tucker's DVDs because of the topic of "rack manipulation," which was—and still is—rampant.

NOBODY SAID THAT JOSHUA FILLER WAS MANIPULATING THE RACK AGAINST SHANE VAN BOENING.


THE TOPIC OF RACK MANIPULATION, HOWEVER, WAS MENTIONED BECAUSE IT IS WELL KNOWN THAT IT HAPPENS IN THE POOL WORLD.

The Magic Rack was not invented yet at the time when Joe Tucker wrote his book.
 
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