Also knowledge (conscious, unconscious, ...) doesn't necessarily lead to a clear explanation of the concept. If it is filtered by a middle man, it may not survive. I wonder what Earl actually said.
Making frozen rail cut shot
- Thread starter Clusterbuster
- Start date
Yeah, it occurred to me that he might have been misrepresented - didn't want to waste a good example though.
pj
chgo
He's got the inside english part right, and that's about it. Inside makes the object ball hug the rail going toward the pocket. The point of aim is at the back side of the object ball or at the point where the ball and cushion meet. It's not a hard shot to learn either. A frozen ball is one of the easiest shots to make on a pool table. You actually have a little room for error and it will still go. Just hit slightly behind or at the back of the ball. Don't forget a little high inside english and it's going in!
I've got a degree in Pool!
I've got a degree in Pool!
A drill I like to do each day is to freeze 6 balls, one on each Diamond, on a long rail. Put the CB in middle of table and shoot the 3 on one end into the corner pocket starting with ball closest to hole. The first shot would be ball closest to hole, CB then goes 3 rails for position on next ball closest to hole and so on. Then shoot the 3 balls on other end same way. All 6 must be made without a miss. Using deflection with my cue I just go for about a half ball hit and it goes in the hole every time you just have to use the right speed to get on next ball but the shots are almost automatic no matter how far CB is from OB.
I then set balls up the same but use just a touch of outside to make ball and go straight across table and back out for position on next ball and then do the same on other end
Using deflection to make the balls almost feels like cheating and you can actually power the balls in off the rail even if they’re way up table
I then set balls up the same but use just a touch of outside to make ball and go straight across table and back out for position on next ball and then do the same on other end
Using deflection to make the balls almost feels like cheating and you can actually power the balls in off the rail even if they’re way up table
I think it's mostly the inside spin that helps - it gives you a little more aiming margin of error.
pj
chgo
Inside spin hitting a ball frozen to the cushion nose, must strike the obj. ball first before hitting the rail.
Inside cueing, applies the opposite rotation to the obj. ball when contacted first.
Because of this, when the obj. ball hits the pocket facing, the induced spin on the obj. ball causes that object ball to rotate inward.
Spin induces speed to the obj. ball thus requiring the shooter to hit the obj. ball slightly fuller as more spin is induced.
Also, adding more cue ball forward speed will increase the thickness of the obj. ball contact point needed to be struck.
The cleaner the ball set, and the newer the cloth the thicker this shot must be hit as more spin/speed is added to Whitey.
Reason is, clean play conditions, with new or freshly cleaned balls cause more object ball squirt.
If the cloth is freshly cleaned or new, conditions change as the day and days go by.
As new cloth wears and ESPECIALLY when more humidity/dirt comes into the play area, the obj. ball contact point changes dramatically.
Inside cueing, applies the opposite rotation to the obj. ball when contacted first.
Because of this, when the obj. ball hits the pocket facing, the induced spin on the obj. ball causes that object ball to rotate inward.
Spin induces speed to the obj. ball thus requiring the shooter to hit the obj. ball slightly fuller as more spin is induced.
Also, adding more cue ball forward speed will increase the thickness of the obj. ball contact point needed to be struck.
The cleaner the ball set, and the newer the cloth the thicker this shot must be hit as more spin/speed is added to Whitey.
Reason is, clean play conditions, with new or freshly cleaned balls cause more object ball squirt.
If the cloth is freshly cleaned or new, conditions change as the day and days go by.
As new cloth wears and ESPECIALLY when more humidity/dirt comes into the play area, the obj. ball contact point changes dramatically.
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Exactly! Thanks for posting what I was going to post. Who knows what Earl actually said.
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Walked in for my Wed. night game. Set this shot up. Aimed as instructed and it was executed as described. I usually have trouble with the 3 rail position after the shot but was no problem.
I only tried it with my carbon fiber shaft and got your same result.
Me, too. Similar result only it did work well for a two rail bank shot.
And watch out for the scratch in the opposite corner.
True, but shooter must allow for cue ball squirt/feel/forward direction change of the cue ball to the desired obj. ball contact point, as more outside or more speed is added.
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It's definitely a deflection shot similar to TOI.
I tried it the other day on a diamond bar table and made the ball almost every time from a variety of different angles.
I was using a Schon butt and OB maple LD shaft.
To refer back to another thread, you can't use your Low Deflection stroke. You need close to maximum deflection for this to work.
Also, in the video it's not clear WHAT is aimed at the center of the OB. I tried it lining up CCB to COB and then doing a parallel shift and it worked ok.
I also tried it aiming the cue stick at the COB as well as the inside edge of the cue stick at the COB. That seemed to work better for steeper angles.
It is a valid way to shoot it if you are struggling and that shot comes up. It's worth playing around with in case you ever need it.
I have used deflection systems enough to do micro changes to the aim point and cue angle/amount of English intuitively. I'm sure that is why it works for me better than for some other posters.
I don't think it would hold up to scrutiny if you were trying to ensure consistent striking to test it.
It is an interesting way to shoot it though. A little heavy handed because you will get maximum side spin and can easily overrun position if you're not careful.
This reminds me of my way of aiming back cuts with maximum low outside that is very, very accurate and yet I can't put it into words. I jokingly refer to it as a "Flying cross" and I don't expect for it to hold up to any scrutiny even if I were able to describe it.
I see two different ways of aiming. One is the very measured, accurate, physics style which relies on accuracy and judgement.
Another group of players aim with reference points and 'ways' to hit shots to make them. People who aim this way generally aim by feel but know ways to make specific difficult shots. For these players, playing is all about recognizing which shortcut or reference point will work for a given shot and executing it properly.
This shot is definitely the latter style of play.
I tried it the other day on a diamond bar table and made the ball almost every time from a variety of different angles.
I was using a Schon butt and OB maple LD shaft.
To refer back to another thread, you can't use your Low Deflection stroke. You need close to maximum deflection for this to work.
Also, in the video it's not clear WHAT is aimed at the center of the OB. I tried it lining up CCB to COB and then doing a parallel shift and it worked ok.
I also tried it aiming the cue stick at the COB as well as the inside edge of the cue stick at the COB. That seemed to work better for steeper angles.
It is a valid way to shoot it if you are struggling and that shot comes up. It's worth playing around with in case you ever need it.
I have used deflection systems enough to do micro changes to the aim point and cue angle/amount of English intuitively. I'm sure that is why it works for me better than for some other posters.
I don't think it would hold up to scrutiny if you were trying to ensure consistent striking to test it.
It is an interesting way to shoot it though. A little heavy handed because you will get maximum side spin and can easily overrun position if you're not careful.
This reminds me of my way of aiming back cuts with maximum low outside that is very, very accurate and yet I can't put it into words. I jokingly refer to it as a "Flying cross" and I don't expect for it to hold up to any scrutiny even if I were able to describe it.
I see two different ways of aiming. One is the very measured, accurate, physics style which relies on accuracy and judgement.
Another group of players aim with reference points and 'ways' to hit shots to make them. People who aim this way generally aim by feel but know ways to make specific difficult shots. For these players, playing is all about recognizing which shortcut or reference point will work for a given shot and executing it properly.
This shot is definitely the latter style of play.
The instructions are to aim FULL at the object ball. I wonder how it worked for a variety of angles for you. I think your experience crept in and overrode the "system".
Yes. That's what I suspect as well.
Not to make the a Zhitshow...this is what I suspect happens to the CTE disciples. Their brain overrides the error and corrects. IE confirmation bias.
Since we are talking about inside english here, I looked something up in one of Dr. Dave's articles that I didn't understand, and I found a surprising fact about inside english (and now I remember it being mentioned in one of his throw videos). Some preliminaries: inside english has spin that throws the OB in the same direction as the cut induced throw. If you think about the first shot in the video where the ball is on the left hand long rail, the inside english will throw the OB into the rail, which is also what the cut induced throw is trying to do. Compare that to outside english, where the spin throws the OB in the opposite direction of the cut induced throw, which is why if you hit the CB with just the right amount of outside english, i.e. "gearing" english, you can get exactly zero throw on the OB.
Yet, at larger cut angles, e.g. 60 degrees, inside english will actually cause less throw than no english. What??! That is counter to what you would expect: you would expect there to be some amount of cut induced throw and some additional throw from the inside english--but there is no additional throw from the inside english, and you don't even get the full amount of cut induced throw. Why is that? My mental model has adopted this explanation: I imagine that the inside english causes the two balls to skid against each other with less friction than when there is no spin, the result being less cut induced throw. In other words, at larger cut angles a CB with inside english can't grip the OB as easily, so the cut induced throw is less.
Now think about this effect: for large cut angles, a small amount of outside English can result in more throw than shots with no English. What??! Normally, outside english counter-acts cut induced throw! Apparently, everything works backwards for spin induced throw at large cut angles: inside english reduces the overall amount of throw and outside english increases the overall amount of throw.
Dr. Dave's article is here: https://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2007/feb07.pdf
Yet, at larger cut angles, e.g. 60 degrees, inside english will actually cause less throw than no english. What??! That is counter to what you would expect: you would expect there to be some amount of cut induced throw and some additional throw from the inside english--but there is no additional throw from the inside english, and you don't even get the full amount of cut induced throw. Why is that? My mental model has adopted this explanation: I imagine that the inside english causes the two balls to skid against each other with less friction than when there is no spin, the result being less cut induced throw. In other words, at larger cut angles a CB with inside english can't grip the OB as easily, so the cut induced throw is less.
Now think about this effect: for large cut angles, a small amount of outside English can result in more throw than shots with no English. What??! Normally, outside english counter-acts cut induced throw! Apparently, everything works backwards for spin induced throw at large cut angles: inside english reduces the overall amount of throw and outside english increases the overall amount of throw.
Dr. Dave's article is here: https://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2007/feb07.pdf
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Woodshaft
Do what works for YOU!
I use inside english on these shots unless it may result in a scratch.
I hit the rail first, then the english kicks the ball down the rail into pocket.
I use a very ld shaft.
I can make almost 90 degree cuts with this technique pretty regularly.
I practice these particular shots daily, for a few minutes.
I like pie.
Apple or cherry.
I hit the rail first, then the english kicks the ball down the rail into pocket.
I use a very ld shaft.
I can make almost 90 degree cuts with this technique pretty regularly.
I practice these particular shots daily, for a few minutes.
I like pie.
Apple or cherry.
Woodshaft
Do what works for YOU!
I have made almost that angle before lol. Fun shot to try and pull off.
Definitely impresses the ladies
