Man playing as woman at APA nationals

robsnotes4u

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The World Health Organization is moving toward declassifying transgender identity as a mental disorder in its global list of medical conditions, with a new study lending additional support to a proposal that would delete the decades-old designation.



The change, which has so far been approved by each committee that has considered it, is under review for the next edition of the W.H.O. codebook, which classifies diseases and influences the treatment of patients worldwide.



“The intention is to reduce barriers to care,” said Geoffrey Reed, a psychologist who is coordinating the mental health and behavior disorders section in the upcoming edition of the codebook, called the International Classification of Diseases, or I.C.D.



Dr. Reed, a professor at the National Autonomous University of Mexico and an author of the new study, said the proposal to remove transgender from the mental disorder category was “not getting opposition from W.H.O.,” suggesting that it appears likely to be included in the new edition. The revised volume would be the first in more than 25 years, and is scheduled to be approved in May 2018.



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Removing the mental health label from transgender identity would be a powerful signifier of acceptance, advocates and mental health professionals say.



“It’s sending a very strong message that the rest of the world is no longer considering it a mental disorder,” said Dr. Michael First, a professor of clinical psychiatry at Columbia University and the chief technical consultant to the new edition of the codebook, which is known by its initials and the edition number I.C.D.-11. “One of the benefits of moving it out of the mental disorder section is trying to reduce stigma.”



Other parts of the proposed change are stirring debate, however. The proposal would not take transgender out of the codebook altogether, but would move it into a newly created category: “Conditions related to sexual health.”



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Many, but not all, advocates favor the idea of keeping transgender in the codebook in some form because the designations are widely used for billing and insurance coverage of medical services and for conducting research on diseases and treatments. But where should it go?



“I think there is a bit of a problem with the idea of putting it in a chapter on sexual health because it has nothing to do with sex,” said Dr. Griet De Cuypere, a psychiatrist at the Center of Sexology and Gender at University Hospital in Ghent, Belgium, and a board member of the World Professional Association for Transgender Health. “If it’s possible to have it more separately, it would be better.”



Others have concerns about a proposal to change the name from “transsexualism” to “gender incongruence,” a name chosen to try to express “a discrepancy between a person’s experienced gender identity and their body,” said Dr. Reed, who was part of the working group that recommended the changes to W.H.O.



One problem is that “incongruence” resonates differently in different languages. “In English it sounds kind of neutral — my association is with geometry,” Dr. Reed said. “But in Spanish it sounds very bad, it sounds kind of psychotic.”



So, in Spanish, the proposal is “gender discordance,” which, he said, “in English sounds really bad.”



Language differences are only part of the issue. “The terminology is difficult because nobody likes anything,” Dr. Reed said. “People have made suggestions that have been all over the map. One of the people at one of the meetings said we could call this happy unicorns dancing by the edge of the stream and there’d be an objection to it.”



The issue is reminiscent of the change in the way homosexuality was treated in the American bible of psychiatric diagnoses, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, known as the D.S.M. In 1973, the book, published by the American Psychiatric Association, changed the diagnosis of “homosexuality” to “sexual orientation disturbance,” and later to “ego-dystonic homosexuality” before dropping it altogether in 1987.



Transgender identity has changed in the D.S.M. too, classified under “sexual deviations” in 1968, “psychosexual disorders” in 1980 and “sexual and gender identity disorders” in 1994. In the fifth and most recent edition, D.S.M.-5 in 2013, the designation was changed to “gender dysphoria,” and was defined to apply to only those transgender people who are experiencing distress or dysfunction, said Dr. Jack Drescher, a psychiatrist and psychoanalyst at New York Medical College, who serves on the W.H.O. working group and served on a similar working group for the D.S.M.-5.



Dr. Drescher said he supported removing the diagnosis from the D.S.M. entirely, but he noted that the I.C.D. was different because it has categories for every disease and condition, not just psychiatric ones, and retaining some code for transgender identity might be the only way for some to receive medical care. Inmates, including Chelsea Manning, have received access to hormone treatments partly based on the fact that transgender identity belongs to a medical category, Dr. Drescher said.



Dr. First said he once received a call from the Internal Revenue Service asking him, as an expert, to support the agency’s intention to challenge a tax deduction that a transgender woman claimed for gender reassignment surgery. He declined, and said cases like that would be more likely without a diagnostic category.



Karl Surkan, a professor of women’s studies at M.I.T. and Temple University, who is transitioning from female to male, agreed. He said some trans people “say homosexuality was declassified, so now this is part of our civil rights movement, without understanding that it’s wildly different.”



Mr. Surkan said gays, lesbians and bisexuals were “not sort of reliant on medical treatment in the same way that the transgender population often is. You need a code to get an insurance company to pay for something.”



In a study published Tuesday in Lancet Psychiatry, Dr. Reed and co-authors interviewed 250 patients at a clinic that provides transgender health services in Mexico City. They found that while most had felt distress related to their gender identity during adolescence, almost a fifth of them had not. And among those who felt distress or experienced dysfunction at work, home or school, most was attributed to how they were treated — being rejected or violently attacked — rather than to their gender identity itself, the authors reported.



Many had physical health problems, likely a result of living on the margins of society, because their lives followed a “slope leading from stigma to sickness,” said Dr. De Cuypere, who is the co-writer of a commentary about the study.



Similar studies are being conducted in Brazil, India, Lebanon, South Africa and France.



“I would expect to see this kind of stigmatization and violence in all the other countries,” said Dr. Reed, although he said that in France, the researchers received a slightly more laissez-faire reception.



“In France, they said, ‘Just leave us alone, we don’t need your stinking classification,’ ” Dr. Reed said. “But they live in a society where access to health care is conceptualized as a right.”



Accepting doesn't mean it isn't a mental disorder


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lorider

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Well after reading this thread on a very controversial subject I must say I read some very controversial viewpoints also. Might as well put mine out there also.


First I would like to say I that most of my life I was a very old fashioned guy to the point of being called a male chauvinist lol. I believed the man went out and worked to support his family and his wife stayed home taking care of the house and kids.

Over the years as the world changed so has my views......to an extent. I am now more of a live and let live type of guy. I will not try to tell you how to live you life and you don't try to tell me how to live mine and we will get along just fine.

I believe girlwon1when she said the lo and the team honestly did not know norma was a man. Therefore I di not find fault wth them for what happened in Vegas.

I also believe apa handled it properly but will have to address this with son type of ruling to prevent this situation from happening in the future. What I find some what strange is norma played what.....3-4 matches before his gender was realized. Apa.policy is that the team captains verify each players id before each match starts. Apparently this policy was not followed the previous matches norma played.

Upon contemplating the above its very possible the policy was followed if the name norma is in his id but no one may have looked at the little box that is stamped either m or f in his earlier matches. If the name norma is on his id the i could see where his gender was overlooked in his previous matches.

The above posts giving stats on how many transgender people there are out there is a little surprising. To those that its was to spot a man dressed as a woman ...well you would be surprised at just how hard it is with certain ones.

I would like to share my encounters with some. I have a neighbor who is a ver good friend and a former team mate of mine and my g/f's. One day my g/f asks me to sit down that she has to tell me some thing. I say ok. Well she tells me our friend is coming over to eat and is bringing her brother who is staying with her for a while. I say well that's no problem. She then tells me that the brother dresses and lives as a woman. I say ....what ???? She says yep and that she and our friend was worried about how I was going to react since they both know I am still old fashioned in a lot of ways.

I have to say that if I had not been told before hand I wild have never guessed she was really a he. He made a better looking woman than his sister . It was all I could di to keep from staring at him as we ate. Later we decided to go bar hoping. He had all kind of men asking him to dance and he turned them all down. The thought crossed my mind several times ...if they only knew what they were flirting with. I then wondered how they would act if they found out and would they try to beat the hell out of him. I dint know if he was planning a sex change or just wanted to dress the way he did. Was not my biz and I never asked.

Now I want to tell you about another time but am a little hesitant cause I dint want you getting the wrong idea. I am all man and have 4 biological children to prove it.

I once dated a woman that shall I say was a little wild. I always had a blast with her but lets just say she was not the stay in the kitchen with an apron type. Well one night we were out bar hopping and she suggests we go down town Memphis to a place I has never heard of. Imagine my surprise when we walk in and sit down and I find out its one of those clubs that have drag queens putting on shows.I am telling you there is no way you could tell that some of them were men. Some it was very obvious they were men Man was I upset when i found out the place was full of gay people. She said it turned her on and she made up for it that night. And yes we went to her place alone. Did I mention she was wild.?

I bet some posters have passed by some that live that lifestyle and could not tell they were men.
 

HawaiianEye

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So if it's not a mental illness, what is it?

Here's a story that starts off with a guy who uses dry ice to destroy his own legs. Why? He wanted them lopped off. Two perfectly functioning legs.

I would call that a mental illness.

To want to change your genitalia also seems like a mental illness. In both cases, the person sees their body differently than they think it should be.

I'm not suggesting people be discourteous to those who wish to do this, but let's not pretend everything is A-OK. If there is nothing wrong, then there's no reason to perform surgery, take hormones, etc. It can't both be a problem and not be a problem.

It is a mental illness. You can change the name of something to another thing that may be a little more "politically correct", but it doesn't mean it is something else.

At some point, people are going to have to begin accepting reality again.
 

PoolBum

Ace in the side.
Silver Member
I once dated a woman that shall I say was a little wild. I always had a blast with her but lets just say she was not the stay in the kitchen with an apron type. Well one night we were out bar hopping and she suggests we go down town Memphis to a place I has never heard of. Imagine my surprise when we walk in and sit down and I find out its one of those clubs that have drag queens putting on shows.I am telling you there is no way you could tell that some of them were men. Some it was very obvious they were men Man was I upset when i found out the place was full of gay people. She said it turned her on and she made up for it that night. And yes we went to her place alone. Did I mention she was wild.?

I bet some posters have passed by some that live that lifestyle and could not tell they were men.

So how did you find out that she had been a man?
 

Physiqz

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Still find this funny. I do not why all the bickering and complaining. It is really simple... There is still a handicap, so... why does it matter? LMAO. The score sheet does not care about gender. It only cares about the point race or game race.. If this was non-handicapped, I could see the argument, but I personally do not believe in having divisions based on gender and handicaps based on gender. Like I have stated, if it is mixed at amateur level, should be mixed at pro level as well. Pool is not a physically demanding sport.
 

justadub

Rattling corners nightly
Silver Member
Still find this funny. I do not why all the bickering and complaining. It is really simple... There is still a handicap, so... why does it matter? LMAO. The score sheet does not care about gender. It only cares about the point race or game race.. If this was non-handicapped, I could see the argument, but I personally do not believe in having divisions based on gender and handicaps based on gender. Like I have stated, if it is mixed at amateur level, should be mixed at pro level as well. Pool is not a physically demanding sport.

The bickering is because that particular tournament was supposed to be ladies only. Yes, the handicap should balance things for the most part, but for whatever reason they decided to have a ladies only division, so.....

This isn't an issue regarding the regular open division. Pretty sure that if you are whoever your license says you are, you can play.
 

supergreenman

truly addicted
Silver Member
not a mental illness.

from: http://www.apa.org/topics/lgbt/transgender.aspx


A psychological state is considered a mental disorder only if it causes significant distress or disability. Many transgender people do not experience their gender as distressing or disabling, which implies that identifying as transgender does not constitute a mental disorder. For these individuals, the significant problem is finding affordable resources, such as counseling, hormone therapy, medical procedures and the social support necessary to freely express their gender identity and minimize discrimination. Many other obstacles may lead to distress, including a lack of acceptance within society, direct or indirect experiences with discrimination, or assault. These experiences may lead many transgender people to suffer with anxiety, depression or related disorders at higher rates than nontransgender persons.
According to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5), people who experience intense, persistent gender incongruence can be given the diagnosis of "gender dysphoria." Some contend that the diagnosis inappropriately pathologizes gender noncongruence and should be eliminated. Others argue that it is essential to retain the diagnosis to ensure access to care. The International Classification of Diseases (ICD) is under revision and there may be changes to its current classification of intense persistent gender incongruence as "gender identity disorder."


Being a trans person makes you no more mentally ill than being a gay person, an asexual person or a hetro-sexual person.

Stop being honkeys and be a little more compassionate. Do you actually think a person would choose to be a trans person and put themselves at risk of violence and being ostracised from their community?

Born that way. That's all you have to think, then accept them for who they are. I can't even imagine how hard their lives must be.
 
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haystj

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Being a trans person makes you no more mentally ill than being a gay person, an asexual person or a hetro-sexual person.

Stop being honkeys and be a little more compassionate. Do you actually think a person would choose to be a trans person and put themselves at risk of violence and being ostracised from their community?

Born that way. That's all you have to think, then accept them for who they are. I can't even imagine how hard their lives must be.

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JoeyA

Efren's Mini-Tourn BACKER
Silver Member
Transgenders

Mental Disorder or NOT.

You make excellent points, especially about our inability to imagine how difficult their lives must be.

JoeyA

from: http://www.apa.org/topics/lgbt/transgender.aspx


A psychological state is considered a mental disorder only if it causes significant distress or disability. Many transgender people do not experience their gender as distressing or disabling, which implies that identifying as transgender does not constitute a mental disorder. For these individuals, the significant problem is finding affordable resources, such as counseling, hormone therapy, medical procedures and the social support necessary to freely express their gender identity and minimize discrimination. Many other obstacles may lead to distress, including a lack of acceptance within society, direct or indirect experiences with discrimination, or assault. These experiences may lead many transgender people to suffer with anxiety, depression or related disorders at higher rates than nontransgender persons.
According to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5), people who experience intense, persistent gender incongruence can be given the diagnosis of "gender dysphoria." Some contend that the diagnosis inappropriately pathologizes gender noncongruence and should be eliminated. Others argue that it is essential to retain the diagnosis to ensure access to care. The International Classification of Diseases (ICD) is under revision and there may be changes to its current classification of intense persistent gender incongruence as "gender identity disorder."


Being a trans person makes you no more mentally ill than being a gay person, an asexual person or a hetro-sexual person.

Stop being honkeys and be a little more compassionate. Do you actually think a person would choose to be a trans person and put themselves at risk of violence and being ostracised from their community?

Born that way. That's all you have to think, then accept them for who they are. I can't even imagine how hard their lives must be.
 

benjaminwah

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So I am the one that started this thread and I have some new information. I just tattooed a mental health professional. Here are some things that people in this thread on both sides of this issue probably do not know, I certainly didn't.

In order to change your gender on your state or federal identification you do NOT need to have sexual reassignment surgery. In the case of this individual a surgery this drastic may not even be possible due to her age.

If someone has spent the last 20 years identifying as a woman, penis or not, you would refer to her as a she. This may sound stupid for me even mentioning this but I legitimately wanted to know.

State or Federal discrimination laws do supersede any rules an organization like the APA have. So the APA ****ed up.

My client says the blame in this scenario does fall on both sides of the aisle. Norma's league rep should have anticipated this (if he knew, which is debatable). It should have been discussed beforehand.

As for the women who competed in this event who felt wronged, tough cookies. Yes, if you are a woman, you enter a woman's event, you find yourself competing against a cross dressing man and the state you are in forbids discrimination then you have to play that person. If you don't like it your only other option is to quit.

I am personally relieved to have found out a lot through this scenario. I am a married straight man with 2 kids so none of this is about me myself, but more about the world we live and compete in this great sport in.
 

BRussell

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I just tattooed a mental health professional.
lol
:grin:
State or Federal discrimination laws do supersede any rules an organization like the APA have. So the APA ****ed up.
Hmm, I looked it up and Nevada does have a public accommodation non-discrimination law that covers transgender people. So a restaurant owner couldn't legally refuse service to a transgender person. I'm not sure if an APA pool tournament would be covered by this though.
 

benjaminwah

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
lol
:grin:
Hmm, I looked it up and Nevada does have a public accommodation non-discrimination law that covers transgender people. So a restaurant owner couldn't legally refuse service to a transgender person. I'm not sure if an APA pool tournament would be covered by this though.

The guy I tattooed has experience in this field. He says it absolutely pertains to this. He has dealt with it before.
 

Johnnyt

Burn all jump cues
Silver Member
I'm so glad I'm out of pool and work. I go with the flow up to a point...then I go caveman. Johnnyt
 

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
What a topic for discussion on AZ, but why not? A few thoughts of my own. My first experience with anything like this was way back in Johnston City. There was a nice looking young guy there one year who blew a ton of money taking on good players (with a spot of course). I didn't see this guy again for several years and then he appears at another tournament maybe ten years later. Now he's dressed like a girl and playing as one. I remembered him but wasn't 100% sure. Being me, I asked him if he had ever been to Johnston City. He looked at me sideways and muttered, "Why?". That was all I needed to know. He fared better as a girl but still didn't win the tournament. He may have finished in the money.

I remember the huge controversy when Renee Richards began competing on the women's tennis tour. That was world wide news back in the 70's. She had been an average men's player before her operation, and now was allowed to play as a woman. She won some matches, but never went that far in any pro event. For me the biggest shock was when Bruce Jenner, the former Olympic Decathlon champion announced he was changing gender. I mean this guy was a world class athlete and a hero to a lot of young boys. I'm sorry but this one still makes no sense to me.

Finally, to add to one of the previous posts, there are many places where men dress up as women, take drugs to enhance their female shape and pose as prostitutes. They actually engage in sex with unsuspecting men, tying their penis to their belly and having anal intercourse (in the dark of course). I know this is very graphic but you will see these type of prostitutes working in Mexican border towns and also in the Philippines. I'm not sure where else they work. I was lucky and got wised up the first time I went to Tijuana. These girls prefer to have sex with men.
 

HouseMan

~o^-
Silver Member
I know this is very graphic but you will see these type of prostitutes working in Mexican border towns and also in the Philippines. I'm not sure where else they work. I was lucky and got wised up the first time I went to Tijuana. These girls prefer to have sex with men.

This should be a sticky!
 

haystj

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
jay helfert;5644359 I'm not sure where else they work. I was lucky and got wised up the first time I went to Tijuana. These girls prefer to have sex with men.[/QUOTE said:
I really love your work commenting on pool matches and have a ton of respect for what you have contributed to the world of pool.

I would never have imagined this, but you talking about your experience with the trans gendered community, which is very controversial, has really made me admire you as a person more than your billiard accomplishments.

Bravo Sir!
 
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StuartTKelley

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
As for the women who competed in this event who felt wronged, tough cookies. Yes, if you are a woman, you enter a woman's event, you find yourself competing against a cross dressing man and the state you are in forbids discrimination then you have to play that person. If you don't like it your only other option is to quit.

This is perfect illustration of what is wrong with the thinking in this country today. This says for one, if you are a legitimate woman ,meaning you were born a woman and accept that is your sex ,and actually live as a real woman, which the majority 99% of them in the tournament were....that if all of you (the 99%) feel wronged because you had to play a man in a women's tournament then it's YOU that should quit or deal with it !! WTF! And this also calls it DISCRIMINATION against a MAN in a WOMEN's tournament. WTF x2.

Makes me want to put my fist through this monitor right now. I was so ready to let this topic go until I read this load of crap.
 

robsnotes4u

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This is perfect illustration of what is wrong with the thinking in this country today. This says for one, if you are a legitimate woman ,meaning you were born a woman and accept that is your sex ,and actually live as a real woman, which the majority 99% of them in the tournament were....that if all of you (the 99%) feel wronged because you had to play a man in a women's tournament then it's YOU that should quit or deal with it !! WTF! And this also calls it DISCRIMINATION against a MAN in a WOMEN's tournament. WTF x2.



Makes me want to put my fist through this monitor right now. I was so ready to let this topic go until I read this load of crap.



Post of the year!!


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