Mark Wilson/Karen Coor/Elbow Position

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DrCue'sProtege

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
i was watching some of the WPBA on TV last night, and Karen Corr was playing. i noticed on some of her shots her elbow is way up in the air, almost to the point where it is pointed upwards.

its my understanding that during a good stroke the upper arm will remain still for the most part, as if you could have a cup of coffee up there and it wouldnt spill.

for all of you individuals that have taken a lesson from Mark Wilson, is this the impression you guys came away with relative to how Mark teaches the stroke? or should the upper arm be level?

DCP
 
DrCue'sProtege said:
i was watching some of the WPBA on TV last night, and Karen Corr was playing. i noticed on some of her shots her elbow is way up in the air, almost to the point where it is pointed upwards.

its my understanding that during a good stroke the upper arm will remain still for the most part, as if you could have a cup of coffee up there and it wouldnt spill.

for all of you individuals that have taken a lesson from Mark Wilson, is this the impression you guys came away with relative to how Mark teaches the stroke? or should the upper arm be level?

DCP
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DCP,

You're misunderstanding what Mark is trying to say. What he showed you is the most efficient/easiest stroke to perfect and make repeatable. You can get to world class level with any stroke you like. However, it's all about natural ability and practice. I know I had this discussion with Mark when I was there. Most pro's don't have a textbook stroke. However, for we less gifted, we need every advantage we can get when it comes to fundamentals.

On a side note, since I've gotten used to, somewhat anyhow, Mark's changes my game has gone up considerably due to more consistency and confidence. Another thing that I took from Mark was that he said no matter what you have to commit to the shot. Frequently I miss a shot due to being tentative and since I've been trying to make sure I make all my decisions while standing up and then trusting my stroke once I get down I've "choked" much, much less.
 
You are right, Mark does teach very straight forward sound mechanics like keeping your upper arm to your elbow not moving at all during your stroke and making a perfect Pendulum stoke. BUT, Karen and Allison come from Snooker backgrounds with open stances and long follow throughs.....and after watching Bustamante live. As long as you can duplicate your stroke consistently and make your final stroke straight through the cue ball....that is all that matters. For us mere mortals, We have to keep our upper arm level and strive for that perfect pendulum stoke.
 
Drake said:
You are right, Mark does teach very straight forward sound mechanics like keeping your upper arm to your elbow not moving at all during your stroke and making a perfect Pendulum stoke. BUT, Karen and Allison come from Snooker backgrounds with open stances and long follow throughs.....and after watching Bustamante live. As long as you can duplicate your stroke consistently and make your final stroke straight through the cue ball....that is all that matters. For us mere mortals, We have to keep our upper arm level and strive for that perfect pendulum stoke.
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Karen seems to be built with long upper arms, like I have. I, too, get my elbow up in the air, if I want to use just my lower arm for stroking. There's really no other way to do that, unless I stand on my tiptoes, maybe.

btw, I keep my coffee cup on the table. :p

Jeff Livingston
 
Hmm, I believe women's lower arm are longer than men's, hence the higher elbow.
 
JoeyInCali said:
Hmm, I believe women's lower arm are longer than men's, hence the higher elbow.
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What about the height of the individual to begin with along with how low they get into the shot. Everybody that has the cue trenching out a cleft in their chin has an elevated elbow.
 
JoeyInCali said:
Hmm, I believe women's lower arm are longer than men's, hence the higher elbow.
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Also, the closer you put your chin to the cue the farther up your elbow will go. Just like the more upright you go you're elbow will eventually start pointing down.
 
When I saw Mark I took his point to be that the upper arm should not move and that the stroke be a pendulum movement. If I stood straight up my elbow would point in back of me. If I bend to the floor my elbow would point to the ceiling.

Precise shot making requires a stroke with as few moving parts as possible. Precise repetition is the goal.
 
DrCue'sProtege said:
i was watching some of the WPBA on TV last night, and Karen Corr was playing. i noticed on some of her shots her elbow is way up in the air, almost to the point where it is pointed upwards.

its my understanding that during a good stroke the upper arm will remain still for the most part, as if you could have a cup of coffee up there and it wouldnt spill.

for all of you individuals that have taken a lesson from Mark Wilson, is this the impression you guys came away with relative to how Mark teaches the stroke? or should the upper arm be level?

DCP
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Im a little confused, are you saying Karen was dropping her elbow or just questioning her position of the elbow? I dont think Mark meant the back of the arm would have to be flat for a cup to set on, just that if a cup was able to set on your arm it wouldnt fall off from movement.

On a side note, unless you have long arms (which I would think Karen does) your elbow would be realatively flat if you were playing with a level cue.
 
DrCue'sProtege said:
i was watching some of the WPBA on TV last night, and Karen Corr was playing. i noticed on some of her shots her elbow is way up in the air, almost to the point where it is pointed upwards. ...
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But her arm has no choice. Her chin is on the cue and her forearm is perpendicular to the stick at impact. Her head position sets her shoulder position and her forearm sets her elbow position. Her upper arm could not be parallel to the floor unless you dislocated her shoulder by about a foot. I think this is just simple mechanics.
 
In case no one noticed, Karen drops her upper arm big time on the break. It starts at the beginning of the forward motion, not after c/b contact. It seems kind of odd, no harder than she breaks why the elbow drop.
I think Allison does it to some degree but I haven't seen her play for a while.

Rod
 
Gremlin said:
Hello,

Karen Corr is a BCA Certified Master Instructor. Kimmy Shaw and Karen gave me help with my stance and stroke. The arm doesn't drop on the standard strokes. It won't drop if you are putting the proper stance and follow thru.

Here are some photos for your interest.

Karen head on and Kimmy in stroke. Note Kimmy's arm doesn't drop.

Cheers,

"Gremlin" :)
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i could be wrong again here, but i dont' believe she's a master instructor. not taking anything away from her, but i think you have to be a bca instructor for quite a bit longer than she has to attain a master status.

thanks
 
Gremlin said:
Hello,

Karen and Julie attended the master academy in Texas and both made it thru with flying colors. Yes, a master. The press release is here on AZBilliards. :cool:

If members of this forum would spend less time trying to correct other members of this forum more time could be spent on the interesting subjects.

Back to the subject. The elbow doesn't drop and if it does it means you are out of stroke. That is if you are using this style of stance and stroke. At least I know when I am out of stroke my elbow drops. LOL :eek:

Cheers,

"Gremlin"
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as of 11/02/2004 per the BCA she is a recognized instructor. and if people weren't corrected there would be tons of bad info on here that the entire world reads as truth. it doesn't really matter much, but it bothers me when i see bad info out there.

as per AZ

(Colorado Springs, CO) Billiard Congress of America (BCA) Executive Director Stephen Ducoff is pleased to announce that Karen Corr and Julie Kelly have recently completed training and testing as BCA Recognized Instructors. In order to qualify as a BCA Recognized Instructor, candidates must attend and meet the requirements of a BCA Master Academy.

please read the info a little more carefully. it says they are RECOGNIZED. in order to become a RECOGNIZED instructor, you must ATTEND a MASTER academy. going to a master academy doesn't qualify them as a master. every recognized instructor MUST meet the requirments of a MASTER academy, if that makes them a master instructor, then every bca recognized instructor would be. they may choose to update their status every two years i believe. you would have to ask one of the bca instructors that posts on here regularly.

this is what happens when people don't read the entire article. you are posting on a forum that is accessed by people all over the world, please take more caution in what you type as fact. especially when you are talking about people other than yourself. this is not an insult, just merely making sure the right info is out there for all to read.

thanks
 
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vapoolplayer said:
they may choose to update their status every two years i believe. you would have to ask one of the bca instructors that posts on here regularly.
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You are correct, you must be actively teaching for two years before you can advance. In fact, you spend two years as recognized, two years as certified, and two years as advanced before you can reach master status.

You must have 12 feedback forms on file per year to remain active, and you have to have 18 feedback forms on file from the previous year to upgrade your status.

There is ALOT of time, money, and hard work that goes into reaching the advanced levels of BCA certification.

Woody
 
Gremlin said:
Thanks,

I apologize to you both and Karen and Julie. They straightened out my form so I am happy as hell. The elbow doesn't drop and after much practice I can actually judge my follow thru for speed and now practicing twisting my cue on my banks. I bank 300% better.

Thank you again,

"Gremlin"
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it always feels better when you get something in your game straightened out. i'm not sure where i heard it but, someone told me once, its always more fun when you can make the balls do what you want.

thanks
 
vapoolplayer said:
i could be wrong again here, but i dont' believe she's a master instructor. not taking anything away from her, but i think you have to be a bca instructor for quite a bit longer than she has to attain a master status.

thanks
Click to expand...

I believe that Fran Crimi of NYC is the only female BCA Master Instructor in the country.
 
If you really want to shoot like a pro I think you should watch Keith McCready. Can you imagine shooting the way that he does and going into a strange room. Everyone would be lining up to play you. If you want to see someone drop their arm watch Mike Davis. Apparently there is no one fits all. It seems to be what ever works best for you.
 
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