Master Teams
- Thread starter Mark Griffin
- Start date
Mark the USA is in one of the worst RECESSION in my life time right now, that is effecting not only Pool, but Restaurants, and many other shall we say non essential item people use to have discretionary income to spend money on.
I know that the Valley of the Sun (Phoenix Metro Area) in the last 4 months has had about 100 Small Bar close.
This was told to me by a Gentleman I am sure you may know Jeff who owns Shoot the Bull-House of Cues in Phoenix. Another Gentleman I am sure you know is Dave Clayton who does Pool Table recovering all over State of Arizona, he verified Jeff's information.
Things are not good in Las Vegas also as I get weekly e-mail alerts from many Las Vegas Casino's offering me LOW Room Prices like I have never seen in the past, and a family member who live in sin city says "Las Vegas is hurting".
RECESSION is effecting everything, and as I said I see ZERO GOOD ON THE HORIZON...JMHO.
I know that the Valley of the Sun (Phoenix Metro Area) in the last 4 months has had about 100 Small Bar close.
This was told to me by a Gentleman I am sure you may know Jeff who owns Shoot the Bull-House of Cues in Phoenix. Another Gentleman I am sure you know is Dave Clayton who does Pool Table recovering all over State of Arizona, he verified Jeff's information.
Things are not good in Las Vegas also as I get weekly e-mail alerts from many Las Vegas Casino's offering me LOW Room Prices like I have never seen in the past, and a family member who live in sin city says "Las Vegas is hurting".
RECESSION is effecting everything, and as I said I see ZERO GOOD ON THE HORIZON...JMHO.
funny you should mention that. im a 4 and am playing in the apa masters division lol. also play in apa sd. and dj. divisions.
i agree with you on all points dub. i guess i am an exception. i joined our masters division and am only a 4. i joined because i want to get better and realize one of the best ways to do that is to play better players.
i also play in our sd. and dj divisions but like the challenge of playing better players heads up. its hard for me to get in the game so to speak when the opposing team throws a 3 or lower against me.
btw i just got lowered back down to a 4. cant seem to make up my mind if im a very good 4 or a lousy 5 lol. i know im going to get my ass kicked in masters but im not the only one. our masters has 2 other 4s and several 5s in it. i beat 2 7s anand 2 6s last session as a 5, going to see how i do heads up now.
I think that in many cases the higher level masters players do not play in leagues anymore. There are many reasons for this and most have already been stated.
It would be interesting to see if you simply opened it up to anyone who was willing to pay a membership whether you would increse the team count substantially. The problem with doing this though is that you A) alienate the players who currently play or B) you lose league players when they realize that they no longer have to play in order to complete in the teams events in Vegas.
Either one of these scenarions hurt the BCAPL as a business.
Just my thoughts.
Leagueguy.
It would be interesting to see if you simply opened it up to anyone who was willing to pay a membership whether you would increse the team count substantially. The problem with doing this though is that you A) alienate the players who currently play or B) you lose league players when they realize that they no longer have to play in order to complete in the teams events in Vegas.
Either one of these scenarions hurt the BCAPL as a business.
Just my thoughts.
Leagueguy.
? Masters Teams ?
You're a 100% right, but no coincidence... The Masters quality players are traveling to a local tournament (often lightly handicapped) and close enough to travel back and forth without having to spend $$$ for lodging. The "open to any player ability" in a league makes only THE BEST players get together as a team to assure the ultimate reward (Vegas trip, $$$). The rest of the "Masters" league players are also runs. I don't see an answer to the problem, except to force THE BEST players to go through some preliminary league or tournament to qualify for Vegas Nationals. I.M.O.
You're a 100% right, but no coincidence... The Masters quality players are traveling to a local tournament (often lightly handicapped) and close enough to travel back and forth without having to spend $$$ for lodging. The "open to any player ability" in a league makes only THE BEST players get together as a team to assure the ultimate reward (Vegas trip, $$$). The rest of the "Masters" league players are also runs. I don't see an answer to the problem, except to force THE BEST players to go through some preliminary league or tournament to qualify for Vegas Nationals. I.M.O.
A great competing product would be to offer qualifiers or regional events prior to the big one. Kevin Trudeau really worked out all the interesting aspects of a pool tournament with the IPT. It is safe his model of events works and someone should give it another go.
Mark,
From what I can see, the problem with the "Masters division" has more to do with the target market, than anything. This has been the status quo for a long time, unfortunately.
For players that are truly playing "masters level", that portion of the pool population has a different mindset than the lower echelon/Open players. The Open players can be anyone from a recreational player, to someone who piggybacks a vacation to Vegas with some Pool, to a serious poolplayer that has a job and is trying to improve, to someone that is a "low masters level" player that sneaks into the Open, to cash. This covers a majority portion of the poolplayer population.
The Masters Level is a whole nutha segment of the market. This group will always be a much smaller group than, say, the Open level. The typical masters level player is one who has put a lot of time and practice into the game and plays very well. They expect to cash, or even win in any regional tour they enter. They may or may not have a job. Their mindset towards Pool is that it is more like a career, or source of income, so decisions like which tourney to enter are determined by how much money they can potentially cash for and what are their chances of: winning/covering expenses/losing money on the trip. If the prospects of winning and coming out ahead don't look too good, then it may not be worth entering. Basically, the typical masters player is like a junior/up and coming pro player and tries to treat Pool with that mindset, even though they aren't at that level.
That siad, it all boils down to expenses. I would say that most Master level players factor in the large cost of the trip to Vegas, along with the high level of competition, making the prospect of breaking even or ahead, tougher odds.
At the end of the day, I don't see many viable suggestions to improve things. The payouts and money added can sway things. Also, keeping the tourney schedule as short as possible might help. Maybe you can try to bang this event out in as few days as possible. Lastly, maybe you can arrange a special room booking service for Masters players. Offer to pair them up with other single Master players to share room expenses. You can have an additional question on the entry form such as "Do you want to share a room with 1,2,3 others?" This way, they don't have to go thru the hassle of trying to find a room mate.
That's about it, for now. I'll try ot put some more thought into this.
Eric
From what I can see, the problem with the "Masters division" has more to do with the target market, than anything. This has been the status quo for a long time, unfortunately.
For players that are truly playing "masters level", that portion of the pool population has a different mindset than the lower echelon/Open players. The Open players can be anyone from a recreational player, to someone who piggybacks a vacation to Vegas with some Pool, to a serious poolplayer that has a job and is trying to improve, to someone that is a "low masters level" player that sneaks into the Open, to cash. This covers a majority portion of the poolplayer population.
The Masters Level is a whole nutha segment of the market. This group will always be a much smaller group than, say, the Open level. The typical masters level player is one who has put a lot of time and practice into the game and plays very well. They expect to cash, or even win in any regional tour they enter. They may or may not have a job. Their mindset towards Pool is that it is more like a career, or source of income, so decisions like which tourney to enter are determined by how much money they can potentially cash for and what are their chances of: winning/covering expenses/losing money on the trip. If the prospects of winning and coming out ahead don't look too good, then it may not be worth entering. Basically, the typical masters player is like a junior/up and coming pro player and tries to treat Pool with that mindset, even though they aren't at that level.
That siad, it all boils down to expenses. I would say that most Master level players factor in the large cost of the trip to Vegas, along with the high level of competition, making the prospect of breaking even or ahead, tougher odds.
At the end of the day, I don't see many viable suggestions to improve things. The payouts and money added can sway things. Also, keeping the tourney schedule as short as possible might help. Maybe you can try to bang this event out in as few days as possible. Lastly, maybe you can arrange a special room booking service for Masters players. Offer to pair them up with other single Master players to share room expenses. You can have an additional question on the entry form such as "Do you want to share a room with 1,2,3 others?" This way, they don't have to go thru the hassle of trying to find a room mate.
That's about it, for now. I'll try ot put some more thought into this.
Eric
master9baller
Banned
Master's league play
10 weeks ago I joined with a APA Master's team about 1/2 an hour north of Syracuse. We have just 4 teams, playing weekly. As it stands now 2 of the teams have already been "lapped" by the other teams and my team and the other are within a few games of one another. It's fun and all, but not my usual cup of tea.
I enjoy playing on a Valley barbox, just a very simple game for me. I don't play much 8 ball so I like the change. Nice to see that a few of these guys have some gamble in them, I've made some decent money.
Problem is that none of us have a clue how the season ends. The 15th week is a playoff, but how the standing throught the season are incorporated into the playoffs who knows? Last night I heard 4th and 3rd place play each other, then the winner of that plays 2nd place and then 1st place plays the winner of that. Seems like a huge advantage for the first place team, but okay by me, a trip to Vegas would be nice.
At this point I don't know if I would do it next season, but maybe.
Everybody blames the economy for pool's woes. The problem is that there are almost no new players, and the ones that have played for years are growing tired of it, unless they are winning. I always say that if somebody could win, they would be there playing in the event.
10 weeks ago I joined with a APA Master's team about 1/2 an hour north of Syracuse. We have just 4 teams, playing weekly. As it stands now 2 of the teams have already been "lapped" by the other teams and my team and the other are within a few games of one another. It's fun and all, but not my usual cup of tea.
I enjoy playing on a Valley barbox, just a very simple game for me. I don't play much 8 ball so I like the change. Nice to see that a few of these guys have some gamble in them, I've made some decent money.
Problem is that none of us have a clue how the season ends. The 15th week is a playoff, but how the standing throught the season are incorporated into the playoffs who knows? Last night I heard 4th and 3rd place play each other, then the winner of that plays 2nd place and then 1st place plays the winner of that. Seems like a huge advantage for the first place team, but okay by me, a trip to Vegas would be nice.
At this point I don't know if I would do it next season, but maybe.
Everybody blames the economy for pool's woes. The problem is that there are almost no new players, and the ones that have played for years are growing tired of it, unless they are winning. I always say that if somebody could win, they would be there playing in the event.
Mark,
One of your "MASTERS TEAMS" won the Open Team event this year.
Not sure how or when this could be fixed............but someone said it earlier, in pool it appears you become penalized for playing better, at least at the league level. Also, many better players want to hide at the lower levels instead of playing the better players.
I do not believe there is ONE answer to this problem, it is way to complicated for that. In many cases Open players who do well in Vegas deserve to be Masters, and then there are some who just had a good tourney and will never ever want to compete at that level or be able to.
It appears that when you created the "ADVANCED" level, some Masters players moved all the way down to Open players. Not a problem for them, but a HUGE problem for the 1,000 + open players that were steam rolled by these guys. So, that NEW structure truly didn't work.
My question is WHAT does the BCA want?!?! Do you want to build ALL divisions, just Masters, the Open Team event? Once you have a handle on that, there may be a solution.
One suggestion is to have a CRYSTAL CLEAR scale that bridges ALL league systems. And some way to match up league rankings from each league system, so players know where they are, and that may eliminate the majority of level hoping. But then you will always have sand-baggers to contend with.
There are players who want to become Masters and work towards that goal, but every year more and more Masters become Open players, which makes it difficult to push through the Open level. It seems as though players are moving in the wrong direction. Perhaps there should be NO downward movement at all?!?! I know this isn't popular, but once at a level, you can only move up, NOT down.
Mike
One of your "MASTERS TEAMS" won the Open Team event this year.
Not sure how or when this could be fixed............but someone said it earlier, in pool it appears you become penalized for playing better, at least at the league level. Also, many better players want to hide at the lower levels instead of playing the better players.
I do not believe there is ONE answer to this problem, it is way to complicated for that. In many cases Open players who do well in Vegas deserve to be Masters, and then there are some who just had a good tourney and will never ever want to compete at that level or be able to.
It appears that when you created the "ADVANCED" level, some Masters players moved all the way down to Open players. Not a problem for them, but a HUGE problem for the 1,000 + open players that were steam rolled by these guys. So, that NEW structure truly didn't work.
My question is WHAT does the BCA want?!?! Do you want to build ALL divisions, just Masters, the Open Team event? Once you have a handle on that, there may be a solution.
One suggestion is to have a CRYSTAL CLEAR scale that bridges ALL league systems. And some way to match up league rankings from each league system, so players know where they are, and that may eliminate the majority of level hoping. But then you will always have sand-baggers to contend with.
There are players who want to become Masters and work towards that goal, but every year more and more Masters become Open players, which makes it difficult to push through the Open level. It seems as though players are moving in the wrong direction. Perhaps there should be NO downward movement at all?!?! I know this isn't popular, but once at a level, you can only move up, NOT down.
Mike
Mark - As you know I run a very high level BCA league in the Phoenix Area. Here are the few different items I think that hinder the growth of a National Masters Event.
(Based on the gripes I hear non-stop)
1) Lots of Master Level players dislike having to play in a pool league for X number of weeks. (committment, level of competition, travel, expense to cost ratio not worth their time, etc.)
2) Many Masters Level Players are Lock Artists. If they don't feel they have a great chance of coming out ahead (minus expenses) many won't get in the ring.
3) Many Masters Players have given it a shot at Nationals only to find small fields and less and less cash. Many have given it numerous years to grow and have grown tired by the lack of support and don't waste their time.
Honestly, I believe that if the top 16 teams in the OPEN actually all get bumped to Advanced each year(regardless of singles play) and singles players as well, you will have 2 really good team events (per orientation). A large OPEN Team event and a large Advanced Team event (With 1 Master player allowed).
In AZ, I know we've always sent 2 or 3 Masters Levels Teams, even when the numbers were so low.
(Based on the gripes I hear non-stop)
1) Lots of Master Level players dislike having to play in a pool league for X number of weeks. (committment, level of competition, travel, expense to cost ratio not worth their time, etc.)
2) Many Masters Level Players are Lock Artists. If they don't feel they have a great chance of coming out ahead (minus expenses) many won't get in the ring.
3) Many Masters Players have given it a shot at Nationals only to find small fields and less and less cash. Many have given it numerous years to grow and have grown tired by the lack of support and don't waste their time.
Honestly, I believe that if the top 16 teams in the OPEN actually all get bumped to Advanced each year(regardless of singles play) and singles players as well, you will have 2 really good team events (per orientation). A large OPEN Team event and a large Advanced Team event (With 1 Master player allowed).
In AZ, I know we've always sent 2 or 3 Masters Levels Teams, even when the numbers were so low.
Kudos to you lorider and I mean that sincerely. You are obviously trying to acheive a higher level of play. Too bad everyone didn't see things like that. Best of luck with your game in the future.
jimifren
Registered
Ask the Western BCA. They seem to have success with their master teams. This last March they had 17 men's master teams and 14 women's master teams. Thats pretty good for a regional tournament. And it keeps growing. And by the way, they had 132 open men's teams and 37 open women's teams.
I see a couple problems that may impact the lack of participation in the masters division.
First would be the fact that the tournament allows one player from the higher division to play in the lower bracket which leads to many of your best players trying to find 4 strong players to stack a team instead of playing at the highest level. It doesn't make sense to me that someone has proven their ability but as long as it's just one they can drop down a division, why not make all players play in the divisions they belong in.
Second is the fact that the races grew shorter as the caliber of play was supposed to be getting strong. I understand(although I don't necessarily agree) why you switching to 3 man teams for the reason you stated but why not make the races longer. The reduced fields for the masters and advanced teams already mean that you're getting limited play and with races as short as they are luck plays an enormous factor.
Just my $0.02
Todd
First would be the fact that the tournament allows one player from the higher division to play in the lower bracket which leads to many of your best players trying to find 4 strong players to stack a team instead of playing at the highest level. It doesn't make sense to me that someone has proven their ability but as long as it's just one they can drop down a division, why not make all players play in the divisions they belong in.
Second is the fact that the races grew shorter as the caliber of play was supposed to be getting strong. I understand(although I don't necessarily agree) why you switching to 3 man teams for the reason you stated but why not make the races longer. The reduced fields for the masters and advanced teams already mean that you're getting limited play and with races as short as they are luck plays an enormous factor.
Just my $0.02
Todd
Eric, I think you hit the nail on the head with your post. Most Master level players don't want to fork out $450 for plane fare and another $500 for a hotel, to have a chance at winning $1000. They want a better return on their investment.
I know there are many Master players out there, they just don't want to shell out the money to come to the BCA NAtionals.
I don't see any decline in the number of Open players, this is the core of pool players. I think there were over 800 teams and Scotch had 338 teams. The singles Open had over 1300 players. These numbers tell me it's not the economy keeping the Masters away.
Mark, I'm glad to see the added money lowered for the Masters division. In years past, it always took away from the Open prize money which are the real supporters of the leagues and National events.
JMHO, but I think Masters would rather stay in the home rooms and give the lower rated players the 7 out for $200 a set. It's much easier money for them.
Mark - Now that you have all this fancy online computer software, do you have some historical numbers in your system?
I would think one of your programmers could easily put a script together to compile all the Master Level Players in the past 5 years or so and find out a few key items.
First, are they playing in the BCAPL League System somewhere now? In as many leagues as they did in the past? If they are not playing league, did they jump to another league? etc. etc.
Second, if they are playing league and are not coming to Nationals, you could probably reach out to their league operators for some answers why. Or do some cross-check to see where their old teammates are playing. etc. etc.
(In my league, all of the Advanced Players except 1 made it to Nationals this year. Our Lone Master, Mitch Ellerman only played in the Pro Events.)
I would think one of your programmers could easily put a script together to compile all the Master Level Players in the past 5 years or so and find out a few key items.
First, are they playing in the BCAPL League System somewhere now? In as many leagues as they did in the past? If they are not playing league, did they jump to another league? etc. etc.
Second, if they are playing league and are not coming to Nationals, you could probably reach out to their league operators for some answers why. Or do some cross-check to see where their old teammates are playing. etc. etc.
(In my league, all of the Advanced Players except 1 made it to Nationals this year. Our Lone Master, Mitch Ellerman only played in the Pro Events.)
So wouldnt the cheap hotels be a FAVORABLE thing? Why is the economy only affecting Master Level players?
This is a pretty good post. Definitely I would say that most master-level players have 'been there and done that' when it comes to the BCA tournament in Vegas, so the notion of getting some glory for a high finish no longer interests them. For them the bottom line is always going to be about the money they can win, and playing 20 weeks or whatever in a league, then forking over money for airfare, hotel, and entry fees to play in the Vegas tournament just for the prospect of maybe winning a few hundred dollars more than they invested in the toughest division there is just doesn't make sense.
In my opinion if you are going to have a masters division at all it needs to be the biggest and most prestigious event at the finals. It should have the longest races, the most money, and the highest quality field. That way there's at least some incentive for the master teams to stay together. That's the only way to keep the event going if you ask me.
It's either that or remove the restrictions and let everyone play in the open event.
This matches some of my opinion.Exclusivity!Real National Championships and not a cattle heard mentality.Not just forgettable names in just another forgettable division in another forgettable tournament.
Good Questions and Answers
Mark,
This is a good question and there are a lot of reasons listed here. I don't see a lot of answers to your dilemma.
In TX, the Master Div has always been a problem.
This year we only got one true Master to try and sign up and another who wasn't on the Master list but was labeled one based on known ability. Last year was just as bad and 3 or 4 years ago they had enough to run it and they were trying to cut up the cash in the 3rd round.
Many here have posted the same things that I think. Most of the Master players don't want to travel all the way to Vegas to play each other. They can steal local tourneys or travel to where they aren't known and make more for less work and less expense. Once you reach that level, you can find action easily and that's more lucrative than the travel and expense going to Nationals.
I was also a little disappointed to see so many good players that were Masters moved down based on their request and to see where they finished.....it's pretty clear they should have stayed Masters.
This might sound crazy, and I know I will catch hell for even suggesting it but......is it at all a possibility to figure out some sort of national scoring system that leagues would have to use that could determine skill levels over the long haul. If skill levels are set by performance based at Nationals, perhaps there is a fair way to determine who plays what speed over the course of a year rather than a tournament. There are probably dozens of factors that people will use to show that won't work, it's just a suggestion.
Bottom line: I don't see a fix for it because the mentality of the Master level player is geared toward making money as easily and quickly as possible.
Mark,
This is a good question and there are a lot of reasons listed here. I don't see a lot of answers to your dilemma.
In TX, the Master Div has always been a problem.
This year we only got one true Master to try and sign up and another who wasn't on the Master list but was labeled one based on known ability. Last year was just as bad and 3 or 4 years ago they had enough to run it and they were trying to cut up the cash in the 3rd round.
Many here have posted the same things that I think. Most of the Master players don't want to travel all the way to Vegas to play each other. They can steal local tourneys or travel to where they aren't known and make more for less work and less expense. Once you reach that level, you can find action easily and that's more lucrative than the travel and expense going to Nationals.
I was also a little disappointed to see so many good players that were Masters moved down based on their request and to see where they finished.....it's pretty clear they should have stayed Masters.
This might sound crazy, and I know I will catch hell for even suggesting it but......is it at all a possibility to figure out some sort of national scoring system that leagues would have to use that could determine skill levels over the long haul. If skill levels are set by performance based at Nationals, perhaps there is a fair way to determine who plays what speed over the course of a year rather than a tournament. There are probably dozens of factors that people will use to show that won't work, it's just a suggestion.
Bottom line: I don't see a fix for it because the mentality of the Master level player is geared toward making money as easily and quickly as possible.
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