Well...I'm with Dr. Dave, so there! :nanner:I'm with JoeT here...highly overrated, and frequently misunderstood.
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
:grin-angelic:
Well...I'm with Dr. Dave, so there! :nanner:I'm with JoeT here...highly overrated, and frequently misunderstood.
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Actually, you do have to hit the cushion first to even have a chance of pocketing the ball. Now, does that mean it would be impossible going 3 rails if you did hit the cushion first? Not sure. Keep in mind the contact time between CB and rail is much longer (I think) than the contact time between CB and OB. So you can actually hit the cushion first before hitting the OB and also have the OB depart from the CB before the CB leaves the cushion, such that the inside english could still take.
I agree with you here, especially since squirt would make you hit the OB even more full.
Could be, but I still think it's possible to throw balls in, including the shot you diagrammed.
Thanks for taking the time to draw up examples of what you're talking about.![]()
Check out clips HSV A.128-A.141. They show the various combinations of English and ball/cushion contact. The clip titles make it clear what is happening. The object ball is pocketed in all of the clips from two diamonds up from the corner pocket.Agreed on the contact time longer with cushion than object ball and is possible I hit cushion, ball and then still cushion. But why doesn't this throw the ball away from the cushion when the cb is coming out? And I still at least believe I'm aiming and hitting ball first, could be wrong though. Tough to prove ...
Check out clips HSV A.128-A.141. They show the various combinations of English and ball/cushion contact. The clip titles make it clear what is happening. The object ball is pocketed in all of the clips from two diamonds up from the corner pocket.
Enjoy,
Dave
I don't think we potted any hitting the ball first with IE. The closest I have (where the ball was made) is HSV A.141. I think the key is to hit the OB while the CB is compressing the cushion. This gives time for the IE to "take" after the OB leaves, as the CB continues to interact with the cushion.Hey Dave, do you have any hitting ball first with the inside?
I agree. You can't hit the OB after the CB rebounds off the cushion. The CB must hit the OB during cushion compression (or maybe slightly before with new/polished balls that have little throw).Let's try this shot and just tell me do you think you're hitting cushion first when you get the cb over to the side rail?
...I still think it's possible to throw balls in, including the shot you diagrammed.
Sorry, but I think the problem with using outside and throw to help with extreme cut angles is a little different. With a 70 degree cut, for instance, neutral outside english takes place at a tip offset of about 0.40R. It's "about 0.40R" since squirt and ball rotation during tip contact modify the offset a bit (0.38R with zero squirt and no rotation). With a well chalked tip, this is fairly safe as far as miscuing goes.If you're talking about that 70 degree cut, I don't think so. You'd have to hit the CB at the miscue limit just to get "neutral" running sidespin for a 70 degree cut shot. So it would be impossible to add enough more spin to throw the shot significantly.
jal:
With a 70 degree cut, for instance, neutral outside english takes place at a tip offset of about 0.40R. It's "about 0.40R" since squirt and ball rotation during tip contact modify the offset a bit (0.38R with zero squirt and no rotation). With a well chalked tip, this is fairly safe as far as miscuing goes.
... not if you have one of those JT laser gizmos.That's my point. If neutral outside english requires a tip offset of .4R, how reliably can you add enough outside spin (with .5R being the limit) to throw the OB significantly? Maybe more importantly, how reliably can you aim such a thin cut with maximum spin? I think the idea is a daydream.
No, it's definitely possible. I do it all the time when I'm just messing around. I take it you never saw this video of Bob Jewett.If you're talking about that 70 degree cut, I don't think so. You'd have to hit the CB at the miscue limit just to get "neutral" running sidespin for a 70 degree cut shot. So it would be impossible to add enough more spin to throw the shot significantly.
pj
chgo
A quick note to Fred before replying to this, we seem to be on the same page concerning inside english.
Steve,
I use inside english far more to get shape than to recover from bad shape. One of the huge things about inside english is that it "kills" the cue ball coming off of a rail. Early in a game when there is a lot of traffic to move around often using inside english lets me get shape without having to risk contact with other balls. I also use it sometimes to keep the cue ball closer to the next object ball.
A thought for all, inside spin and forward speed of the cue ball are cumulative and outside spin subtracts from the surface speed at impact. This seems to indicate that less inside spin is needed to get the same result.
Hu
... not if you have one of those JT laser gizmos.
Seriously, I agree. You shouldn't be trying to "throw in" thin cuts in game situations.
Regards,
Dave
I guess it depends on how much throw a player considers significant or helpful. To get about 3 degrees with a 70 degree cut angle, you do have to push right up near the miscue limit when squirt reduction in the effective offset is figured in. Were it not for this reduction, you could probably get about 6 degrees of throw at the miscue limit. With squirt, you'd have to exceed it (and get lucky) to see that much. .(Some assumptions are being made about the coefficient of friction and the amount of squirt, but I think are reasonable, based on measurements done by Dr. Dave, for instance.) So I agree that the problem of 'reliably' generating even 3 degrees looms large, larger than I had thought while typing my post. I guess my point was that if you play it safely with a more conservative offset, you could get a surprise.That's my point. If neutral outside english requires a tip offset of .4R, how reliably can you add enough outside spin (with .5R being the limit) to throw the OB significantly?
No argument here.Maybe more importantly, how reliably can you aim such a thin cut with maximum spin? I think the idea is a daydream.
Generally speaking, yes. But when you face large cut angles, say significantly larger than about 30 degrees (half-ball hits) or so, modest outside english can increase normal throw, not decrease or reverse it (throw the OB in the opposite direction). You have to use enough outside to overcome the surface rubbing that takes place from the cut angle itself.I almost get this. I do "know" that both inside and outside english deflect the cue ball equally and then the throw it does (helping, unhelping) have opposite effect of each other on the cue ball so the bottom line for me is that ... for outside english, you cut less, inside english you cut more.
That's probably the right attitude to have when the object ball is a diamond or so from the pocket, and the cueball is not too far behind it. But it's a gross oversimplification and can't be relied upon where more precision is needed.Oh, also, the harder you hit the cue ball, the more that it's just the cue ball deflection and not so much the throw. I'm suspecting that the net outcome of the 2 (deflection + throw) remains contant at any speed so that the aiming system uses this somewhat.
No, it's definitely possible. I do it all the time when I'm just messing around. I take it you never saw this video of Bob Jewett.
That doesn't mean I would spin in all extreme cut shots.