Mastering inside english how long?
- Thread starter dgem
- Start date
Joe T
New member
Actually, you do have to hit the cushion first to even have a chance of pocketing the ball. Now, does that mean it would be impossible going 3 rails if you did hit the cushion first? Not sure. Keep in mind the contact time between CB and rail is much longer (I think) than the contact time between CB and OB. So you can actually hit the cushion first before hitting the OB and also have the OB depart from the CB before the CB leaves the cushion, such that the inside english could still take.
I agree with you here, especially since squirt would make you hit the OB even more full.
Could be, but I still think it's possible to throw balls in, including the shot you diagrammed.
Thanks for taking the time to draw up examples of what you're talking about.
Agreed on the contact time longer with cushion than object ball and is possible I hit cushion, ball and then still cushion. But why doesn't this throw the ball away from the cushion when the cb is coming out? And I still at least believe I'm aiming and hitting ball first, could be wrong though. Tough to prove and can't do it by freezing the balls together because then It wouldn't have the inside spin on it that my cb does and I think the friction is increased if we start off in that position.
Also I agree balls can be throw slightly but that gets me back to saying I just believe it is way overrated.
I really should be hitting balls but az has me. Just when you think you're out they pull you back in!!!lol
Check out clips HSV A.128-A.141. They show the various combinations of English and ball/cushion contact. The clip titles make it clear what is happening. The object ball is pocketed in all of the clips from two diamonds up from the corner pocket.
Enjoy,
Dave
Joe T
New member
Hey Dave, do you have any hitting ball first with the inside? I see the rail first hits and agree you can definitely hit rail first and make them, I do this all the time here; http://www.joetucker.net/rail_workouts.htm
I also see inside spin on the cb but the cb leaves at 90 degrees which would not get me down to the end rail.
Let's try this shot and just tell me do you think you're hitting cushion first when you get the cb over to the side rail?
I don't think we potted any hitting the ball first with IE. The closest I have (where the ball was made) is HSV A.141. I think the key is to hit the OB while the CB is compressing the cushion. This gives time for the IE to "take" after the OB leaves, as the CB continues to interact with the cushion.
I agree. You can't hit the OB after the CB rebounds off the cushion. The CB must hit the OB during cushion compression (or maybe slightly before with new/polished balls that have little throw).
Regards,
Dave
Joe T
New member
I have this shot set up on my table right now with my laser trainer firmly in place with double side tape to mark it’s position and a ghost ball sticker for the object ball.
I line it up and pivot to put 1 tip of inside and outside with my z shaft and the object ball splits the pocket both ways at medium and firm speeds but too much swerve at slow speeds to get info.
Last post for today, gotta go. Thanks for the conversation guys, we'll all be the better for it.
I line it up and pivot to put 1 tip of inside and outside with my z shaft and the object ball splits the pocket both ways at medium and firm speeds but too much swerve at slow speeds to get info.
Last post for today, gotta go. Thanks for the conversation guys, we'll all be the better for it.
Sorry, but I think the problem with using outside and throw to help with extreme cut angles is a little different. With a 70 degree cut, for instance, neutral outside english takes place at a tip offset of about 0.40R. It's "about 0.40R" since squirt and ball rotation during tip contact modify the offset a bit (0.38R with zero squirt and no rotation). With a well chalked tip, this is fairly safe as far as miscuing goes.
But the problem, as I see it, is that throw sensitivity to variations in tip offset is greatly increased at large cut angles. The difference in offset that produces maximum throw in one direction along the tangent line, or maximum throw in the anti-direction, shrinks toward zero as you approach 90 degrees of cut angle. (Ultimately, it is zero at 90 degrees.) If you get the spin somewhere within these two boundaries, you might see a large amount of throw in one direction, the other direction, or maybe no throw at all. All these possibilities are realized over a relatively small variation in tip offset. To make matters worse, the amount of throw that occurs at the two boundaries, max throw, actually increases with cut angle, in theory, for some fixed cueball speed.
To safely bypass all of this and get a little bit of helper throw, although reduced from its max value at the boundary, you can increase tip offset further. But then you are flirting with the miscue limit, if not exceeding it. In that sense, I agree with what you're saying.
Jim
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That's my point. If neutral outside english requires a tip offset of .4R, how reliably can you add enough outside spin (with .5R being the limit) to throw the OB significantly? Maybe more importantly, how reliably can you aim such a thin cut with maximum spin? I think the idea is a daydream.
pj
chgo
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... not if you have one of those JT laser gizmos.
Seriously, I agree. You shouldn't be trying to "throw in" thin cuts in game situations.
Regards,
Dave
No, it's definitely possible. I do it all the time when I'm just messing around. I take it you never saw this video of Bob Jewett.
That doesn't mean I would spin in all extreme cut shots. If there is considerable distance between OB and CB, then I agree that generally the disadvantages outweigh the advantages.
I almost get this. I do "know" that both inside and outside english deflect the cue ball equally and then the throw it does (helping, unhelping) have opposite effect of each other on the cue ball so the bottom line for me is that ... for outside english, you cut less, inside english you cut more. Oh, also, the harder you hit the cue ball, the more that it's just the cue ball deflection and not so much the throw. I'm suspecting that the net outcome of the 2 (deflection + throw) remains contant at any speed so that the aiming system uses this somewhat. So in this sense, I agree with Corner that throw can be thrown out to simplify things. Oops, did I say "aiming" :smile: Just my two cents.
Joe T
New member
... not if you have one of those JT laser gizmos.
Seriously, I agree. You shouldn't be trying to "throw in" thin cuts in game situations.
Regards,
Dave
Now if we all had one of those JT laser gizmos these discussions would be much more productive
I guess it depends on how much throw a player considers significant or helpful. To get about 3 degrees with a 70 degree cut angle, you do have to push right up near the miscue limit when squirt reduction in the effective offset is figured in. Were it not for this reduction, you could probably get about 6 degrees of throw at the miscue limit. With squirt, you'd have to exceed it (and get lucky) to see that much. .(Some assumptions are being made about the coefficient of friction and the amount of squirt, but I think are reasonable, based on measurements done by Dr. Dave, for instance.) So I agree that the problem of 'reliably' generating even 3 degrees looms large, larger than I had thought while typing my post. I guess my point was that if you play it safely with a more conservative offset, you could get a surprise.
No argument here.
Jim
Generally speaking, yes. But when you face large cut angles, say significantly larger than about 30 degrees (half-ball hits) or so, modest outside english can increase normal throw, not decrease or reverse it (throw the OB in the opposite direction). You have to use enough outside to overcome the surface rubbing that takes place from the cut angle itself.
That's probably the right attitude to have when the object ball is a diamond or so from the pocket, and the cueball is not too far behind it. But it's a gross oversimplification and can't be relied upon where more precision is needed.
Jim
It wasn't any easier or harder to learn inside english than to learn outside english.
I set up a few commonly angled shots and practice them all the time.
Personally, I think it's all in the head and trusting the balls to react consistently.
I set up a few commonly angled shots and practice them all the time.
Personally, I think it's all in the head and trusting the balls to react consistently.
Sure I've seen it, but what's his percentage with it? I'm thinking less than 5%, and that's from less than 3 feet away shooting the same shot over and over.
Different strokes I guess. I'd never try to spin in even one. I can cut in shots almost as thin as 90 degrees without throw if they're close enough, and any tiny amount of additional angle I can get with throw isn't worth the risk (to me) of using such extreme spin on a shot that's already so hard to aim.
pj
chgo
i have been having a lot of trouble with this shot (from joes practice book "guaranteed improvement")
http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AacG3PRqn3kRqn3kaSp3kAni4kayJ2kaJT@
i am assuming i am just not compensating for the squirt (hope that is the correct term) and not making contact in the right spot with the object ball rather than the throw being the issue but 1. how can i tell? and 2. how can i make this shot more often so that i'm not nervous about using it in a game?
overall i feel like i play better and more consistently with my current playing cue (starkey with his regular shaft) but i know i made this and some other shots with inside more consistently when i used a predator. is this just something i need to spend more time practicing or am missing something?
thanks
http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AacG3PRqn3kRqn3kaSp3kAni4kayJ2kaJT@
i am assuming i am just not compensating for the squirt (hope that is the correct term) and not making contact in the right spot with the object ball rather than the throw being the issue but 1. how can i tell? and 2. how can i make this shot more often so that i'm not nervous about using it in a game?
overall i feel like i play better and more consistently with my current playing cue (starkey with his regular shaft) but i know i made this and some other shots with inside more consistently when i used a predator. is this just something i need to spend more time practicing or am missing something?
thanks