Mastering inside english how long?

jsp said:
True, but you can say the same thing about "friction". I still don't see a reason to throw throw out the window, unless you can think up of adequate and convenient terms describing the three types of throw you just listed.


I think this is simply false. The reason...throw (or friction, if you don't like the prior term)! Unless you're playing with ideal balls with an absolute zero coefficient of friction between the ball surfaces, pocketing a ball with inside english should be fundamentally tougher (edit: in general).
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Consider your post and my post. Yours seems to suggest that inside is more difficult due to throw. Mine says that the idea of "throw" is what has confused people to believe inside is tougher than outside. Seems to me that I"m talking about you. Is that possible? Or do you think I'm just a crackpot who thought on the same lines as you and now don't? Would you rather think they're the about the same difficulty like I do, or would you rather blame throw and continue treating inside as being worse. To me, I'd like to make inside seem equal and not have to say things like "inside is worse."

Fred
 
Patrick Johnson said:
So I agree that inside and outside spin should be the same difficulty, but I understand why they aren't. We just need to practice inside spin more because we use it less.

pj
chgo
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I think it goes beyond just practicing it more, Pat. I think that people don't actually realize how to aim for inside english. My guess is that 90% of people who can't figure out how to aim for inside english are simply aiming to the wrong part of the pocket. And they keep making adjustments to the wrong direction. They think "throw throw throw," when it's not. It's "opposite opposite opposite."

Hell if I could figure out inside english, anyone with any type of stroke can.

Fred
 
Travis Bickle said:
Hey, maybe it's just my lack of practicing it, Fred. I'd love to think the difficulty was the same between "helping" english and "screw-up-a-routine-shot" english!

No doubt you're right that hitting it firm takes away most of the trouble, but when you've got to hit it easy, well, that can still get tricky, can't it? Just a little? :smile: I mean, I know I almost never overcut that sort of shot, so I compensate a hair that way, but now and then I still see a simple shot brick right into the rail short of the pocket. Can't believe it, every time.
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The consequence of getting to a place where the two shots are about equal difficulty is that slow rolling the outside english shot is just as difficult as slow rolling an inside english shot. And they should be. I can't slow roll a centerball shot without fear of losing my straightness.

I notice a lot of players when attempting to shoot with either inside or outside on slow shots start to jack it up (with a normal shaft). Anyone else notice this in their own game? I think they realized that they aren't "throwing it enough" (ever say this?) and consciously or subconsciously swerve it in to make the aim correct.

Fred
 
uphill and downhill

Cornerman said:
I think it goes beyond just practicing it more, Pat. I think that people don't actually realize how to aim for inside english. My guess is that 90% of people who can't figure out how to aim for inside english are simply aiming to the wrong part of the pocket. And they keep making adjustments to the wrong direction. They think "throw throw throw," when it's not. It's "opposite opposite opposite."

Hell if I could figure out inside english, anyone with any type of stroke can.

Fred
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Inside english is a little harder to use because of the spin on the cue ball. Anyone with a machine background can relate it to an uphill and downhill cut.

Outside english reduces surface speed between the two balls at contact. Inside english increases the surface speed between the two balls. Because of this inside english is slightly harder to manage than outside english or no english. However the key word is slightly. Other than that I agree with Fred, the real deal is that we don't use it nearly as often.

After watching the video of Efren putting on an inside english clinic at the DCC a few years ago I used inside english much more for awhile leading to a funny story. I went into a pool room I don't normally go to and the local poolroom detective came up wanting to play a little, no bet. Sure, I don't mind. We were playing one pocket and both stalling a bit. You don't get to rate my speed for free. After a few games he figured he had my speed rated and in the middle of a game announced it was the last game. He scratched on the next shot. With very dead rails on that table I loaded the cue ball with a ton of inside english and shot the ball off the spot and the cue trickled down to the foot rail and died there with my last ball on the rail between it and the pocket.

The other player wanted to play again. "I thought you said last game?"

"Yeah, but I didn't know this one was over!"

Hu
 
ShootingArts said:
Inside english is a little harder to use because of the spin on the cue ball. Anyone with a machine background can relate it to an uphill and downhill cut.

Outside english reduces surface speed between the two balls at contact. Inside english increases the surface speed between the two balls. Because of this inside english is slightly harder to manage than outside english or no english. However the key word is slightly. Other than that I agree with Fred, the real deal is that we don't use it nearly as often.
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I guess that's why I say I view them as nearly or about equal. They're never going to be exactly equal. Some shots, outside english is the tougher english to use. But I think most people who have responded are thinking of a certain shot or shots with certain speeds. Not all shots get to be put into one nice little category.

And not that you meant it this way, but it doesn't take Efren-like talent to get a good hold on inside english at the normal wide range of speeds and cuts.

Fred
 
My experience is that I almost always need inside english because of a positional mistake, usually due to overhitting the cue ball on the previous shot.

So, focus on getting the proper regional position to prevent the need for inside english while you're at the table.

Of course, it's good to know you can use it when you need it. I realize there are some situations where you absolutely have no choice and it isn't due to your mistake (e.g., blocking balls or what your opponent left you).

--Steve
 
Cornerman said:
Consider your post and my post. Yours seems to suggest that inside is more difficult due to throw. Mine says that the idea of "throw" is what has confused people to believe inside is tougher than outside. Seems to me that I"m talking about you. Is that possible? Or do you think I'm just a crackpot who thought on the same lines as you and now don't? Would you rather think they're the about the same difficulty like I do, or would you rather blame throw and continue treating inside as being worse. To me, I'd like to make inside seem equal and not have to say things like "inside is worse."
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I reread your post, and I think I mistook its emphasis. Although I still think throw is what makes inside english shots a bit trickier, I do agree with you that squirt plays a more substantial role on inside english shots. On most IE shots (such as pulling the CB three rails), the shot requires that you hit with maximum inside (or close to it). And of course, the further away you strike the ball off center, the more you have to mindful of squirt. Outside english shots requiring maximum side is a smaller percentage of all shots using OE. For IE shots, generally it's more all or nothing (except for the shots where you also use follow, which on second thought does comprise a big percentage of IE shots).

Having said that, I still think IE shots have (generally) less margin of error compared to OE because of the intricacies of throw. For a certain cut shot, you can always find the exact amount of OE to give you a perfect "gearing" effect such that you're absolutely immune to ball conditions. But there is no such corresonding amount of IE. You'll always be susceptible to friction for all IE shots. Not only that, but you also have to develop a feel about how the friction between the ball surfaces change as you vary the cut angle, speed, spin, and humidity. Edit: Sure you can say the same thing about OE shots if you don't achieve that perfect gearing spin, but I've posted numerous times in the past that I believe there is an amount of "automatic correction" going on for certain OE shots, such that it does increase your margin of error.
 
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cue ball travel

beetle said:
My experience is that I almost always need inside english because of a positional mistake, usually due to overhitting the cue ball on the previous shot.

So, focus on getting the proper regional position to prevent the need for inside english while you're at the table.

Of course, it's good to know you can use it when you need it. I realize there are some situations where you absolutely have no choice and it isn't due to your mistake (e.g., blocking balls or what your opponent left you).

--Steve
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A quick note to Fred before replying to this, we seem to be on the same page concerning inside english.

Steve,

I use inside english far more to get shape than to recover from bad shape. One of the huge things about inside english is that it "kills" the cue ball coming off of a rail. Early in a game when there is a lot of traffic to move around often using inside english lets me get shape without having to risk contact with other balls. I also use it sometimes to keep the cue ball closer to the next object ball.

A thought for all, inside spin and forward speed of the cue ball are cumulative and outside spin subtracts from the surface speed at impact. This seems to indicate that less inside spin is needed to get the same result.

Hu
 
Let's just take a random cut shot using stun english...

CueTable Help



No matter how good I get, I will never think that this shot with inside is the about the same difficulty as using outside.
 
Here's an interesting video on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkAHVo0BGwU

At about 2:00, I hit my first shot. Now, one couldn't argue that the position could have been avoided, since it was left after Tims miss. One could also argue that once I made the ball, the rack was over regardless. But, you can see that my path ended up such that other than the fact that I'm an amateur playing goofy amateur social pool, that game was over after I made the first shot. I didn't risk stepping up to the table on my first shot trying double the left corner with outside and running long or short. I didn't risk snap drawing with outside. I simply followed with inside english and got a perfect line. And this shot is no simpler or harder than any other shot. I guess that's my point. Whether anyone thought that staight follow might have served the same purpose isnt the point.



Fred
 
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Cornerman said:
The problem is that there are two (or three) categories of throw: spin throw and cut throw (and frozen throw). They're all the same phenomenon (sliding surface friction), but are two different actions. In fact, I think frozen throw has a static friction component while the other two are all kinetic. And spin throw I believe can be higher relative velocity which puts its friction coefficient at another range (lower). So, the three, imo, are really three different things.

That all beside the point (or maybe it is the point), it's obvious in these discussions about inside english being voodoo without an LD shaft, or that inside english is harder in general IMO is because we all learned something about spin throw first, we completely misunderstood it (but still made outside english shots), then naturally made inside english tougher. If we all learned about cue ball squirt/deflection first, I think the majority of people would view inside and outside english as I do: about equal toughness/easiness.

Fred <~~~ would hate to go back thinking inside is tougher than outside
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I am glad that some people can appreciate this scientific stuff and you do a good job of describing everything Fred. Kudos for that.

And I am also so glad for my God given talents that I don't have to think about this stuff scientifically :grin-square: Is this a right brained, left brained, or center brained thing I don't know either? :grin:

From day one I watched someone use inside english/I tried it/and I liked it - never looking back.
 
Cornerman said:
I simply followed with inside english and got a perfect line. And this shot is no simpler or harder than any other shot.
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I'll be sure to see the video after work, since I can't view it here. But yes I do agree that IE with follow is somewhat comparable in difficulty with OE with follow. That's because the follow helps reduce the amount of throw interaction.

Now, stun IE/OE shots is another story.
 
jsp said:
Let's just take a random cut shot using stun english...

CueTable Help



No matter how good I get, I will never think that this shot with inside is the about the same difficulty as using outside.
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I accidentally deleted my post to you on this! Anyway, when I said that I think a lot of the posters have a specific shot with a specific cut and speed in mind, this is the shot.

I could diagram a hundred shots, but that won't do any good. This particular shot, if alll you were trying to do was make the ball, then there'd be no reason to go inside. But, if the only way to get position is with inside, then that by definition would make outside english tougher! This particular shot is almost the same as the standard 14.1 break shot, going two rails with inside off the stack. So, depending on desired path, inside could definitely actually be the easier shot.

And yes, I think you're good enough now. It's not about "how good I get."

Fred
 
difficulty of the shot

Fred,

As I think you will agree sometimes using inside english is the easiest shot in a situation. Often like in your video, it is the better shot. Usually a moderate amount of inside is enough to get the job done.

Aside from anything else, inside english can be fun. I was playing a match with a very strong player in an open nine ball tournament and as the rack and my preferences dictated I played several shots using inside english. That along with a tough back cut into a side pocket using inside had him visibly surprised and wondering how the heck I had juiced the ball. :)

Hu

Cornerman said:
Here's an interesting video on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkAHVo0BGwU

At about 2:00, I hit my first shot. Now, one couldn't argue that the position could have been avoided, since it was left after Tims miss. One could also argue that once I made the ball, the rack was over regardless. But, you can see that my path ended up such that other than the fact that I'm an amateur playing goofy amateur social pool, that game was over after I made the first shot. I didn't risk stepping up to the table on my first shot trying double the left corner with outside and running long or short. I didn't risk snap drawing with outside. I simply followed with inside english and got a perfect line. And this shot is no simpler or harder than any other shot. I guess that's my point. Whether anyone thought that staight follow might have served the same purpose isnt the point.



Fred
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ShootingArts said:
Fred,

As I think you will agree sometimes using inside english is the easiest shot in a situation. Often like in your video, it is the better shot. Usually a moderate amount of inside is enough to get the job done.
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Definitely. Being able to use both sides of the cueball gives more options.

Aside from anything else, inside english can be fun. I was playing a match with a very strong player in an open nine ball tournament and as the rack and my preferences dictated I played several shots using inside english. That along with a tough back cut into a side pocket using inside had him visibly surprised and wondering how the heck I had juiced the ball. :)

Hu
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I have noticed that people watching do get mildly impressed when someone shoots a shot with inside. Prolly cuz of the backwards or held path off the cushion is entertaining. Simple minds and all.

Fred <~~~ simple-minded
 
I think that although inside technically means the cueball is scraping across the face of the object ball with more 'relative speed'... this is not one of those situations where more speed = reduced throw effect. If it is reduced it's negligible. If there really was a noticeable reduced throw effect, a lot of us would be claiming inside is easier but that's not a sentiment you ever hear.

The throw effect on inside feels stronger because outside has the effect of cancelling out collision induced throw. By shooting with a little outside, we're getting the kind of reaction from the OB you'd expect in a perfect world where CIT doesn't exist. So a lot of outside doesn't feel like so much throw in comparison. A lot of inside on the other hand seems huge because it's enhancing the existing (slight) 'undercutting' action you get from CIT.

JSP's diagram shows one of the reasons why inside 'feels' more difficult: As diagrammed he's drawn an inside shot that needed quite a bit of spin, and an outside shot that is almost natural (well, maybe not the third leg so much) and would need less spin. I think a lot of us trick ourselves into thinking a little outside is called for on certain shots like this, and we hit those shots with a bit of low outside. I know I do.

In reality the outside didn't change much and all that was necessary was that touch of low. To get the desired path in a lot of situations, we subconsciously put some helping running outside english on the ball, but it isn't strictly necessary, and that explains two things... 1. Why outside is used so much more (we're putting it on shots even where it isn't needed) and 2. Why it seems so much easier and more natural (because we're using it all the time).
 
I find both sides to be "natural". I have no problem either way. Course, I practice them both in my workout routines....SPF=randyg
 
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