The 'pool high' that came from the 'Color of Money' was fading fast so when the $$$$ shenanigans started on the PBT it all just imploded. The IPT could have been great if it wasn't run by a complete fraud-artist. Pool is just now re-gaining some momentum.
Matchrooms Concern
- Thread starter Island Drive
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Reputation is a huge part of it. Pool halls have a terrible overall reputation in the U.S.
Yeah, a terrible one.
I don't agree. Even the very best pool pros have to scratch for a living. Most of them have become tutors and teachers to supplement the income they get from sponsorships, tournament play and national federations. Others have opened their own pool halls/restaurants (Chua being the very latest).
Even the lowliest bencher on an MLB, NBA, MLB and even NHL team makes more money in a year than the very top pool pros, who have to double up in hotel rooms at major tourneys to make ends meet.
Joshua Filler backtracked on the top-pro boycott of WPA events in large part because of money, it seems quite clear. He's often mentioned the stress of having no money when he was just starting out as a pro player.
If pool was still popular and on TV, the money would be there and there would be more great American players. Even now there are a handful of top American pros who don't play on the tour full time, or at all, because of the lack of a steady source of income. Oscar Dominquez is one of them.
The cost of learning to play, what's more, is prohibitive for large segments of the population. You can't just buy a basketball and play on a public outdoor court.
I am no expert on Europe, but it's not like scores of Europeans are eschewing soccer or other sports to become pool players. Europe produces more great pros now than the U.S. but it's not producing all that many great pros in terms of sheer numbers.
The advantage European players have is a more organized developmental system and some financial support from national federations. Neither exists in the U.S.
Yet by my count, there are legitimately only four Europeans I'd consider "great." Filler, FSR, Ouschan and Shaw. Gorst probably should be in that category too instead of the U.S.
Beyond that, some formerly great players are aging out (Alcaide, Feijin) and some youngsters not quite there yet.
The real action, of course, is happening in Asia. The region accounts for almost 60 of the top 100 Fargo players. Legit stars include Biado, Chua, the Ko brothers and Aloysius Yapp. The Philippines alone has almost as many top 100 Fargo players as all of Europe.
But how many players, outside of these few, travel to most big events around the world? Not many, and the reason is money. They can't even afford to travel.
TV and money are essential for any sport or activity (poker) to attract talent. Pool in the U.S. has neither.
Yep, your paying ''allot'' of table time.
The reason that a lot of Asian players don’t travel is that they don’t get visas.
There was never money in pool and yet there were more high level players in America.
If anything is bullshit, it’s this statement.
Care to explain further?
I don’t think you have the capacity to understand what the hell I’m talking about!!
I suspect it's because they don't think it's worth it financially to go thru the hassle of getting them.
The ones who think it is worth it do get visas. Biado, for instance, has hardly missed a big major in recent years. The Ko Brothers, ditto. Yapp also.
Chua was starting to do the same, which made his mysterious absence from the UK Open such a surprise. He had just attended the Euro Open and PLP, so his visa had been in order.
Different time in America. More blue collar, less white collar. Most of the best players back then never went to college.
Pool was also bigger in popular culture and even got on TV fairly regularly. As such there was more money in pool. Not a lot more, but more.
In 2000, for instance, the U.S. Open raised its total payout to a record $211,000. That included $50,000 for the eventual winner, Earl Strickland.
Then over the next15 years, pro pool in the U.S. crumbled. The U.S. Open top prize fell to as low as $30,000.
Twenty-four years later, in 2024, the payout had climbed back to $50,000 for the winner. But inflation made it a lot less in 2000 dollars.
This year the U.S. Open will finally break its record by paying out $100,000 to the winner. But if you adjust for inflation, the prize money is not much different now compared to 2000. Winning $50,000 in 2000 would be the same as winning $93,000 today.
Even in American pool’s supposed heyday, I'd cotend, there weren’t that many truly great players.
From the mid 1980s to the early 2000s, the list would include maybe just a dozen players. Davenport, Morris, Archer, Hopkins, Sigel, Strickland, Rempe, Hall, Varner, Mizerak and Deuel. Maybe throw in McCready too despite a lack of major titles.
Pretty short list.
Having watched many of these players on older videos, I can’t say they would run circles around the top 10 U.S. players right now. SVB, Woodward, Styer, Deschaine, Bergman, Dominguez, Thorpe, Chohan, Woolford and Fracasso-Verner.
The talent in pro pool in the U.S. has never been super deep.
Sure. Across multiple sports, multiple disciplines, there are those who have the skills and aptitude for a sport, yet they can;t make it. Why? They don’t have the right mentality. Whether they can’t handle the pressure, or they fold the moment competition doesn’t go their way. Everybody in every sport either knows someone, or has heard stories of someone, who has all the skills to be a pro, yet was either afraid to try, or failed when they did. Every boxing gym, every mma gym has one. Just about every pool hall has one.
The idea of “you either have the skills, or you don’t” is a beyond outdated mentality. Hardly surprising with this forum
You are talking about something completely different than Skor. If one doesn't have the mental game(la cabeza) their ceiling is most definitely limited. Let's not pretend though that a pro athlete mentality is going to make one a superstar in any discipline.
The "mental" game is a skill
Mentality is not a skill. Skills are quantifiable. Mentality is not. Again, your thinking is outdated.
Again you don't have the want or ability to understand what I am saying.
I have quckly grown tired of conversing with you & will not entertain your stubborn viewpoint any further.
You ain't kidding. Politicians in local city offices here in NY swear that people who want to open up pool halls only want to for gambling purposes. There is literally no upside to anything from their point of view. Same thing with videogame arcades.
Which is why I'm surprised noone is taking a chance of starting something right now. And mind you, it does not have to be any grand right off the bat. I personally feel one day events would be a good way to start off. Cap it at 64 players implementing the single elimination round rule. Fair entry fees.
Or hell, just copy the seminole tour. They had some moderate success with what they were able to work with. But will the pro crowd fans welcome call shot call safe ten ball?
What absolute. Horse shit. In what way is mentality a quantifiable skill? It’s not. You debate like a stubborn child. -resent your opinion as fact, and then dismiss anything that differs. The perfect AZB poster. Absolute boomerism
I think it may mean the type of thing as when NFL players compliment a player saying he is a Pro. Not all professional football players are pros. A non pro might make more money on aptitude. For a while. Like the stories of NFL quarterbacks who played video games instead of working. Or coaches who gave them blank tapes as a test to see if they watched. "How were the tapes?" "Great coach, learned a lot." Not a pro. Tom Brady = pro. Like when Belichick told him they wouldn't see a given look from a defense. Coach, check week 10 (or whatever) from last year. That's not mental game stuff, it is a professional attitude towards preparation. Pros spend their own money preparing their body and spend their own time preparing.
In sports it's as simple as tracking performance under varying conditions.
Say I hit two tee shots straight out of bounds.
How do I approach the third try? Gather myself & hit a good one to the best of my abilities? Or throw a temper tantrum, pound my golf club into the ground, throw the club, or continue to hit balls out of bounds until I have zero left & walk off the course.
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MR you are lost at this stage of posters. It's something else. LOL
It's something else. LOL
Sorry, but every one of these unmentioned Americans was a stone-cold killer in that same era:
Dallas West, Lou Butera, Danny DiLiberto, Ray Martin, Pete Margo, Pat McGown, Larry Lisciotti, Dick Lane, Tom Jennings, Jack Colavita, Mike Lebron, Mike Zuglan, Grady Matthews, Jon Ervolino, Jim Fusco, Toby Sweet, Wade Crane and Richie Florence.
The American talent pool was very deep in those years.