Matchrooms Concern

[Positively Ralf]

Eurotour is a strong tour.

I've always felt that if this country had a good national tour, more players would possibly keep up with pool as a major side hobby. I'll never understand why everyone let it die after all that went down with the PBT. Good sports tours, well managed, always spread out to youth sports and other forms of education/means of getting competitions setup for the next wave of players.

But again, for some reason noone here ever took the mantel.

 

[mikepage]

[...]
93 Calvin Coker USA 791
[...]Not sure who Calvin Coker is, but judging by his earnings, the listing might be a glitch.
[...]

Here is a little-known fact.
The year Tommy Kennedy went undefeated to win the US Open beating Johnny Archer in the finals, he nearly lost his first-round match trailing Mr. Calvin Coker 11-12 before going on to win.

I saw someplace Calvin Coker has a 14.1 high run of 240 or so.
His is around 70 years old, gives lessons at Danny K's, plays pool league, and just doesn't lose many games

So who knows!

Calvin Coker Victorious at Southern California 14.1 Straight Pool Tournament - News - AZBILLIARDS.COM

With a field of fifty-seven players in attendance, the Southern California 14.1 Straight Pool Tournament took place at Stix Billiards in Rancho Cucamonga, California, February 16th and 17th. This $1500 added open event was presented by Breakball Promotions in a continuous effort to revive interest i

www.azbilliards.com

 

[skor]

The waning ability of the U.S. to develop great pros is no mystery to we aficionados. The pay is too small. The cost is too big. And there's no real organization locally or statewide to promote the game, as there is in parts of Europe and Asia.

We all get the pay aspect. No need to rehash.

Nor is there much likelihood of youth pool leagues developing, outside of a high school pool club here or there.

Which means the main path for U.S. pool players who aspire to become pros begins at home.

Most, if not all, of the best American players today grew up in houses that had good pool tables. They also have a parent or parents who play the game and are willing to support, if not actively encourage, their kids. SVB, Tyler Styer, Savannah Easton and Shane Wolford come to mind.

Which brings us to cost. It's a huge barrier to entry, but not just in the obvious ways.

We all know pool halls are inhospitable to youngsters, by and large. They are expensive to play in and the prevalence of alcohol is a limiting factor, culturally, socially and legally.

The only way a person will be turned on to the game at a young-enough age is if his or her parents buy a good table. That's not an insignificant expense. Throw in some good sticks and balls and now you are looking at a few thousand dollars in upfront investment.

A big hidden cost is ... space. Many homes lack big-enough basements or other rooms suitable for a 9-foot table.

I have a very big house, for instance, but an awkward design means I'd have to spend ... $100,000-plus to get a room big enough for a 9-foot table.

That's why I have a 7-foot table, for now, while I consider an expansion.

Being oblivious to the pool scene from 1980 to 2020, I only recently learned of all the blame bar tables get.

Personally, I don't buy it. I started out on small table when I was young and learned to love the game. When I got back into pool five years ago, I bought a 7-foot table and learned all the fundamentals. But I go to a good pool hall with 9-foot GCs to play the game at the highest level.

Sure, there is an adjustment, especially with speed. But pretty much all of my game carries over. Because I put the effort into it.

Players who really want to get better will advance to 9-foot tables. Nothing is stopping them. If they are happy on bar boxes, they were never meant to go much further than that.

Again with the money?
Money is not better in Europe, yet they produce high-level players.

Here is a tournament that will start in a week – Mezz Bucharest Open

Mezz Bucharest Open

www.9ball.ro

As you can see, the prize money is not that big.
Yet, a full field of 256 players.
Some of them are amateurs, some are unknown; it doesn't mean that they are not strong, and some big names, such as Alcaide, Capito, Chamat (oldie but goodie), Feijen, Filler, the Kaci brothers, Souquet and Souto.

So really, it's not the money; it's the attitude and mentality. The money is just an excuse. After all, it's all about money or sex...

The problem with pool in America is that you don't see it as a sport, not even the players. It was always about the money, the gamble, and the side action. This never changed.

Don't use the word PRO; it confuses all of you. Think of them as "HIGH LEVEL PLAYERS", and now that you have Frago, it's easy; think of them as "above 800 players". And now think about what needs to be done to get there.

Bar boxes are not the problem, but they are part of the problem because they create mentality – the wrong kind of mentality.
How many American "pro players" do you know that actually have a full pro athlete mentality? and seriousness and put that much effort and sacrifice to be the best? not to make money!!! but to be the best!

Saying there is not money in it to work that hard only means the heart is not in it. because if you get to be the best, you'll get the money!

 

[Architect]

I think it has to do with the perceived future in getting good at pool. What do you get from it? A few social media posts where you hold a trophy but all the keyboard "experts" calling out every flaw and saying that you aren't actually that good because you wont challenge SVB, Filler, or Gorst to a race to 100 for $500k? The US has an incredibly negative social media fanbase and in today's age, a positive one is what brings sponsors. An attractive TikTok streamer staging fake pool tournaments that they win showing a fake glamourous lifestyle would probably make more money than the top US players...

Look at Vietnam, Taiwan, and the Philippines, watching every one of those streams you essentially only see positive comments like "idol" or "people's champ," and them being proud for their players like Duong Quc Quang, TKON, Ko brothers, Marboys Team, etc. Their streams literally can reach 100k+ live watchers. If you look at their social media pages like insta, FB, tiktok, they all look like influencers and make people want to play pool to be just like them. Here in the US you have the top players saying they would rather be doing something else, getting in political arguments, or just being full of criticism, who wants to be a person like that?

Then you have the format of pool tournaments, race to 9,10, 13 etc, As a life long pool player I appreciate watching long matches in which the better player generally wins. But can you convince the average APA player to watch a 2.5 hour finals match between Filler and Gorst? They at least have an interest in pool, now try and get someone not in league to watch. This is where I think Predator is somewhat on to something with their format, especially at being interesting for a lot of the match. I know there are a lot of haters, but generally the better players are still winning the tournaments, except its leading to more instances of excitement. Would you rather watch Filler beat a bunch of players 9-2, 9-4, 9-5 or him win 3 matches in shootouts? He will probably never dog a shot up 8-2 to 9 but in a shootout, if the opponent makes 4 spot shots and Filler is shooting the win or lose shot, he's gonna feel the pressure.

I don't know how to truly fix US Pool, but making it attractive to a broader younger base is a start. The easiest way is through attractive social media, but you also need a format that is conducive to exciting watching for new players.

 

[skor]

For years I said that the tournament formats should be like tennis, playing shorter sets.
It could also be a single elimination, as actually each match is a double elimination by itself.
I like the Predator format; it's definitely easier to watch. I can't sit and watch a match for 2 hours; I will fall asleep.

 

[Fore Rail]

Again with the money?
Money is not better in Europe, yet they produce high-level players.

Saying there is not money in it to work that hard only means the heart is not in it. because if you get to be the best, you'll get the money!

How do the European players pay their bills Skor? How do the majority of Europeans pay their bills?

There are over 20 countries in Europe where the cost of living is less than than the cheapest state in the United States

Should we tell our kids not to aspire to be healthcare professionals, educators, science and legal professionals?

Work hard on your pool game kids and one day you can be the best & after expenses you might be able to afford nice things. Don't worry though because if you are the best someone else will pay for everything and you can split your hard earned money with them say 60% - 40%

Sounds great to me.

In closing,

There is a very good player in my neck of the woods (725 Fargo) that made around 20k last year playing locally and regionally on the bar boxes.
He made around 5x that amount working his job.

Another at basically the same Fargo number that has been winning everything around here for some time now just got himself health insurance so he could fight the greatest battle of his young life - metastatic cancer.

I'll say it again, in the grand scheme of things pool doesn't mean diddly f'n squat.

 

[Fatboy]

Wasn’t a troll post at all. I don’t roll that way.

Was a fair question. I don’t watch tv, moved to the Middle East , no clue what’s going on in America (except the stock market)

Thank you for your reply.

Best
Fatboy

 

[Fatboy]

Basketball is a world sport in which many European and Asian countries have a ton of up-and-coming players. Two of the top 5 current players in the NBA are from Europe. Baseball has a huge presence in latin countries and asian countries aswell. It very much is a world sport. The US has no pro lacrosse attention and F1 racing is very little hear compared to stock car racing.

But if you want to keep going on and dismiss these sports, the US excels in swimming and gymnastics. Two sports that have carried the olympics for decades now.

And it's funny how everyone says that what is america winning in? Yet the majority of immigration is to this country. Wonder why that is?

Don't ask me why I'm responding to an obvious troll post.

Not a troll post

Thx

 

[iusedtoberich]

I don't think 7' table vs 9' table makes much difference, TODAY, in the USA for developing players. Here is why.

In the past, 7' tables truly were limited to bars. A legit poolroom would not have any. The people that went to BARS to play on the 7' tables were drunk bangers. No ambition to become any more than a drunk banger.

Today, 7' tables, particularly Diamond, are in many actual pool ROOMS. STRONG players are playing on them, because the room's regular tournaments are on them.

We have quality 7' tables today, with quality players on them, in quality rooms, with non-drunks playing on them.

That's enough to take a player with ambition as far as he/she can go.

 

[skor]

How do the European players pay their bills Skor? How do the majority of Europeans pay their bills?

There are over 20 countries in Europe where the cost of living is less than than the cheapest state in the United States

Should we tell our kids not to aspire to be healthcare professionals, educators, science and legal professionals?

Work hard on your pool game kids and one day you can be the best & after expenses you might be able to afford nice things. Don't worry though because if you are the best someone else will pay for everything and you can split your hard earned money with them say 60% - 40%

Sounds great to me.

In closing,

There is a very good player in my neck of the woods (725 Fargo) that made around 20k last year playing locally and regionally on the bar boxes.
He made around 5x that amount working his job.

Another at basically the same Fargo number that has been winning everything around here for some time now just got himself health insurance so he could fight the greatest battle of his young life - metastatic cancer.

I'll say it again, in the grand scheme of things pool doesn't mean diddly f'n squat.

Pool is a young men's game.
If you're not on the top of the world in your 20s, it probably won't happen.
It's OK to chase a dream and stop and see where you're going with it when you're 30.
It's OK to get a late start at college and get a job with a 10-15 year delay. The life lessons and experience and the stories you'll have to tell the kids and grandkids are priceless.

We can have a long, long discussion about what could and should be made so kids would even consider picking up pool, but here we are focusing on those who already chose the game and what should be done so they can break the barrier of being good and become great, or what to do to make it pass 800 on the Fargo ratings.

From my experience, there are two types of players:
1. Natural-born talents – they'll get there faster, with less training and less practice, but they might burn out faster. Corey Deuel is a good example.
2. The other type are those who need to work really hard to get there. Most players are here. And the players here can't go bang balls on the bar box even if it's easy money, as it won't serve the end goal.

As for athlete mentality, I've personally known a local pro basketball player; at one point he was one of the best in Europe and was on his way to the NBA (Knicks), but that ended due to an injury. He started coaching, and he is today probably the best coach around here and coaches the best team in the country.

About 15 years ago, he picked up pool. In less than a year he became one of the best players in the country, and the only reason he could have done that is because of a pro athlete mentality. Because he knew that there was no way that it was ok to be mediocre, and there was no way he was not going to be the best at everything he touched. He played almost every day, even during basketball seasons, flying around the country to play pool and back to the team. He put hours every day at the table, practising and playing with the best players around, asking everyone everything, anything that will improve him. There was no money for him in it; he made money elsewhere. In fact, he did more for the local pool scene than he gained, as he was a celebrity, and he got pool on TV.

That's what a "pro" player should do.

 

[Hoser]

I have worked with young people for 40 years. American kids are different than when I started working with them. Some are serious about other sports, with pros garnering much attention and wealth, and have a serious work ethic toward those sports. I believe pool has suffered from the video game screen time effect. Video games are addictive and mastered quickly as well as other screen time activities, and many young Americans cannot delay gratification long enough to bother to learn even the basic fundamentals to really enjoy the game. Tried to teach a 13-year-old to play lately? I love introducing young people to the sport, but when they realize the time and effort to achieve mastery, you mostly lose them.

 

[skor]

Today, 7' tables, particularly Diamond, are in many actual pool ROOMS. STRONG players are playing on them, because the room's regular tournaments are on them.

Well, that's the problem...

When I started playing pool more seriously, it was around 1997, and I played in bars, and I joined an APA league.
But even back then, I knew that if I wanted to be better, I needed to play and practise on the 9ft tables at the pool hall.
I even made my routine to go and play the ghost on a 9ft table for 2 hours before heading to the bar to play league.
My biggest jump in my level of play was when I started to only play 9ft. tables and no handicap leagues and tournaments. You have to get better if you play with the big boys...

Years later I met a guy that had a 7ft valley at home. After years of not seeing a 7ft. I went there and kicked his ass on a weekly basis, as it was too easy compared to the club's 9ft table.

 

[boogieman]

Again with the money?
Money is not better in Europe, yet they produce high-level players.

Here is a tournament that will start in a week – Mezz Bucharest Open

Mezz Bucharest Open

www.9ball.ro

As you can see, the prize money is not that big.
Yet, a full field of 256 players.
Some of them are amateurs, some are unknown; it doesn't mean that they are not strong, and some big names, such as Alcaide, Capito, Chamat (oldie but goodie), Feijen, Filler, the Kaci brothers, Souquet and Souto.

So really, it's not the money; it's the attitude and mentality. The money is just an excuse. After all, it's all about money or sex...

The problem with pool in America is that you don't see it as a sport, not even the players. It was always about the money, the gamble, and the side action. This never changed.

Don't use the word PRO; it confuses all of you. Think of them as "HIGH LEVEL PLAYERS", and now that you have Frago, it's easy; think of them as "above 800 players". And now think about what needs to be done to get there.

Bar boxes are not the problem, but they are part of the problem because they create mentality – the wrong kind of mentality.
How many American "pro players" do you know that actually have a full pro athlete mentality? and seriousness and put that much effort and sacrifice to be the best? not to make money!!! but to be the best!

Saying there is not money in it to work that hard only means the heart is not in it. because if you get to be the best, you'll get the money!

How much would it cost you to travel to the next country over, or a couple of countries over? I'm curious. I wonder if it's a transport thing. I've also heard a lot of Euro countries are pretty liberal at time off and vacation and such. Here you're lucky to get 2 weeks off a year in most jobs. Some of them you have to work at for a few years to get a week vacation. It makes it very difficult to play in many events.

The US has shit transportation. We have to drive everywhere or pay a lot to fly, then pay for rental cars at your destination. Driving for 10 hours straight then playing in an open event a few states over sucks bad. Who wants to drop $200 or more on transportation, then $100-200 a night on a hotel in hopes to beat a couple hundred people to just break even? Not every European does, but many underestimate just how big the country is. I've had a few friends and acquaintances basically have their mind blown. They thought you could just visit the statue of liberty and then go to yellowstone in the same day. I'm not saying everyone but it's a common misconception. Basically no one but sponsored pros or the independently wealthy can afford to travel. Most people are stuck withing a couple hours driving and many times that might not even get you into the next state over. Playing at an open in your state and a couple surrounding states is about the best most people could hope for, and they would have to be really good to even attempt it.

I like playing in tournaments but the closest "big" ones are an hour and a half drive each way. If it's a multi day event it's expensive as hell. All but 10 or so people are dead money and only the top 5 or so can even hope to get better than breaking even. For me it's basically treated as a once or maybe twice a year mini vacation.

 

[Fore Rail]

Pool is a young men's game.
If you're not on the top of the world in your 20s, it probably won't happen.
It's OK to chase a dream and stop and see where you're going with it when you're 30.
It's OK to get a late start at college and get a job with a 10-15 year delay. The life lessons and experience and the stories you'll have to tell the kids and grandkids are priceless.

Here's a quote from the movie Moneyball.
"We're all told at some point in time that we can no longer play the children's game,"

If players are honest with themselves(in all sports) that realization should come about very quickly. So it's really not okay to chase something that is never going to be achieved.

The statistics are fairly clear in the number of people that move on to the "pro" level. That means there is a time when everyone should move on to being an adult with adult responsibilities.

From my experience, there are two types of players:
1. Natural-born talents – they'll get there faster, with less training and less practice, but they might burn out faster. Corey Deuel is a good example.
2. The other type are those who need to work really hard to get there. Most players are here. And the players here can't go bang balls on the bar box even if it's easy money, as it won't serve the end goal.

As for athlete mentality, I've personally known a local pro basketball player; at one point he was one of the best in Europe and was on his way to the NBA (Knicks), but that ended due to an injury. He started coaching, and he is today probably the best coach around here and coaches the best team in the country.

About 15 years ago, he picked up pool. In less than a year he became one of the best players in the country, and the only reason he could have done that is because of a pro athlete mentality. Because he knew that there was no way that it was ok to be mediocre, and there was no way he was not going to be the best at everything he touched. He played almost every day, even during basketball seasons, flying around the country to play pool and back to the team. He put hours every day at the table, practising and playing with the best players around, asking everyone everything, anything that will improve him. There was no money for him in it; he made money elsewhere. In fact, he did more for the local pool scene than he gained, as he was a celebrity, and he got pool on TV.

Pro athlete mentality is complet bullshit - it's all about aptitude & nothing else. Either you're good(possibly great) at athletic endeavors or you are not. Even then that is absolutely no guarantee of success.

Every individual needs to find out where their talent lies along with the desire to pursue that talent & then live life to the fullest & best of their abilities.

 

[skogstokig]

How much would it cost you to travel to the next country over, or a couple of countries over? I'm curious. I wonder if it's a transport thing. I've also heard a lot of Euro countries are pretty liberal at time off and vacation and such. Here you're lucky to get 2 weeks off a year in most jobs. Some of them you have to work at for a few years to get a week vacation. It makes it very difficult to play in many events.

The US has shit transportation. We have to drive everywhere or pay a lot to fly, then pay for rental cars at your destination. Driving for 10 hours straight then playing in an open event a few states over sucks bad. Who wants to drop $200 or more on transportation, then $100-200 a night on a hotel in hopes to beat a couple hundred people to just break even? Not every European does, but many underestimate just how big the country is. I've had a few friends and acquaintances basically have their mind blown. They thought you could just visit the statue of liberty and then go to yellowstone in the same day. I'm not saying everyone but it's a common misconception. Basically no one but sponsored pros or the independently wealthy can afford to travel. Most people are stuck withing a couple hours driving and many times that might not even get you into the next state over. Playing at an open in your state and a couple surrounding states is about the best most people could hope for, and they would have to be really good to even attempt it.

I like playing in tournaments but the closest "big" ones are an hour and a half drive each way. If it's a multi day event it's expensive as hell. All but 10 or so people are dead money and only the top 5 or so can even hope to get better than breaking even. For me it's basically treated as a once or maybe twice a year mini vacation.

good post. geography definitely plays a part. netherlands is a good case study. small country but big population, good players can easily get together, and iron sharpens iron. in spain and other countries it can be a bigger sacrifice. three of the spanish players have moved to be with the better competition in the southern mainland area.

air travel isn't cheap but there are sometimes cheap airlines like ryanair if you get lucky. roads and trains are good in central/northern europe. as for vacation, all EU countries have minimum 4 weeks paid vacation by law.

 

[MitchAlsup]

There is also the negative connotation that comes with playing the game.

Perhaps if the rooms were::
{{
clean,
well lit,
smoke free,
gambling free,
patrons who::
...dressed to business casual standards
...quite
...respectful
...patronizing
...compassionate,
...helpful
...honest
}} parents might even help their children to participate.

{{Pipe Dream--I know}}

 

[MitchAlsup]

What is America excelling in these days?

Serious question

Suckery !?!

 

[MitchAlsup]

For years I said that the tournament formats should be like tennis, playing shorter sets.

2-3 hours per match ...

 

[Island Drive]

For years I said that the tournament formats should be like tennis, playing shorter sets.
It could also be a single elimination, as actually each match is a double elimination by itself.
I like the Predator format; it's definitely easier to watch. I can't sit and watch a match for 2 hours; I will fall asleep.

Decades ago, Single Elimination, best 3 outta five sets.... I always barked it works, but promoters need guarantee$$$$$$$ to the hotel and staff, so they want ''At least two nights of the Soft money, not One timers/players they ck out early.
But.... the location Needs that money to profit.
That's what set that trail
Since it's not a true pro tour, MR could of done.
THIS
Here's the Best way to spend that $500K, add $250K to the US Open.... other 1/2.

Hold 10 $25,000 added events in the USA.... cut the country up into ten quadrants.
Format it....

Same as tennis, 3 outta five sets/Single Elimination.
MR owning the Open, and now adding $5000,000 is Great.
Could you Imagine 10 events a yr, $25 K added each event, keep the entry fair, and player pro points can happen at each stop.

Bingo!!!

 

[mjantti]

Well, this may mean your players don’t have as much desire to improve or compete at a higher level as you think. I am always willing to play a bigger tournament as dead money when they come around and so are other players I know. Not for huge money, but why wouldn’t your players pay 100-200 to play a tournament if they got a chance to draw your top players. 64 guys in a 100 entry you have a shot at an envelope with more than 750 in it. Maybe we Americans seek more competition than you think. I guess that was my point. There is a pool player development problem in the US. But table size, heart or lack thereof, or laziness aren’t really the issues IMO.

You bring up an important point here and I partly agree. For some reason not top players are always crying for handicaps when the entry fees go up. The mentality ”everyone deserves a chance to win” supports mediocrity, sandbagging and avoiding structured skill development. ROI is preferred over development through playing with the big guns. +10 years ago we had tournaments with 100-200 entry fees, but for abovementioned reasons somehow these tournaments have died out.

Also economical situation is not good in Finland, we used to do quite a lot of business with Russia and now everything is zero, lots of unemployment here with high taxes results in less money, especially among pool players who don’t have steady jobs. We don’t have sponsors and billiards industry is very small excluding Taom. Finnish federation is organizing tournaments for different categories and divisions but money is scarce.

One problem is that there are a lot of weekly tournaments available, you can enter a tournament almost every day in the great Helsinki area. Usually the entry fee is 10-20€ so not much money to be distributed around. I think after a couple of weekly tournaments players rather stay home over the weekend and watch Netflix than travel/go to bigger tournament. Maybe it’s tournament fatigue in the middle of abundance of tournaments available.

Edit: This weekly tournament has an entry fee of 15€. Look at the lineup: Makkonen, Matikainen and also Mällinen (743 Fargo), Juva (724). Siekkinen (743), Nuutinen (717) with plenty of 600-700 Fargo players playing for peanuts: https://cuescore.com/tournament/GTJ+2025+Kevät+20.4./58804720
You get to play against the best for a pittance, I understand why developing players don’t want to spend more.