I charge the customer as little as possible for the cloth so they won't have to pay as much sales tax. Maybe $5 over my cost, but my invoice doesn't show the itemized cost for labor and materials.
Materials and labor charges.
- Thread starter realkingcobra
- Start date
I guess that's what I've been trying to say, times are changing, and billiards technicians need to start looking into their crystal ball and look ahead, before they get caught short with the cloth issues that ARE coming, sooner or later!Dartman said:
And you're right, the best cloth in the hands of a hack, is still a f*%&ed up table, and still pays more to fix the last job done Glen
Seems like the cost of cloth goes up every 6 to 12 months, does your labor charges increase at the same time? If the cost of cloth keeps going up, I don't feel that I can add to that cost, making it even higher, so...I feel that the next approach is to go to the distributor and let them know that the only way I can keep using their cloth the way the prices are going...is for them to start paying me to use it, or I'm just going to have to start looking for a cloth that better fits my needs, price wisescruffy1 said:
Glen
realkingcobra said:Now days, and building up more and more everyday...home owners are starting to purchase their own cloth first...then looking to find someone to install it. If I start getting calls from home owners in the future as I can see it coming, I'm going to want to know what kind of cloth it is, and who they bought it from...because my next call is going to be to the seller of the cloth and it'll be along these lines....yo buddy, you sold some cloth to so and so to recover their home table, and when you did that...you cut me out of the picture of making any extra money on the side...so, unless you're willing to kick back some of that money...why should I buy any more cloth from you??? Because now you're playing BOTH sides of the fence...selling to me, AND selling to the home owner, except when the retailer sells to the homeowner direct...I'm cut out!!!Think about it
Yep. And how many posts can be found on AZ where people say - go to Diamond for the lowest price on Simonis.
Here's a few -
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=81476&highlight=simonis+price
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=87366&highlight=simonis+price
It should effect everyones pricing just as someone earlier pointed out
about gas. Gas has effected us more then anything. I know this has
got to be killing you. Does the tanker just follow you around?
Cost of materials rising hurts, but it hurts everyone, including the hacks!
Everyone will eventually adjust to the market or go out of business.
about gas. Gas has effected us more then anything. I know this has
got to be killing you. Does the tanker just follow you around?
Cost of materials rising hurts, but it hurts everyone, including the hacks!
Everyone will eventually adjust to the market or go out of business.
JimS said:
Umm, thats 100% markup.
You may see close to that in a brick and mortar billiards store but the
markup on billiard products via the internet is typically less than 50% because of competition.
I actually found an idiot on eBay selling Championship cloth and at best they made $5 a cut before eBay and PayPal fees for the little they sold. Go figure.
Dartman said:Yep. And how many posts can be found on AZ where people say - go to Diamond for the lowest price on Simonis.
Here's a few -
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=81476&highlight=simonis+price
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=87366&highlight=simonis+price
Believe or not, we just had that conversation about pricing, and Diamond has an updated pricing now, todays prices, not yesterdays
That's another example of what I was talking about, selling straight to the customer at the same price I would be expected to pay...wholesale THAT just cost me some money!!! No different than showing up to a bar to recover a Valley 7ft...with Ridgeback rails in hand...and the bar owner says...I have my own rails, would you put them on for me, I bought them from Penguin
Which is why I said I'd only sell my Ridgeback rails to technicians and vending companies only, so I'm not on both sides of the fence...but to date, only 2 technicians have bought my rails so far....how come, they're the best on the market, and have the best pricing Maybe I should just start selling them direct to the bars as well, like Penguin does, if that's all the support I'm going to get Glen
realkingcobra said:I understand what you're saying Jim, but if I went down to the local retail store and picked up some Simonis for $340 marked it up to $510 then charge my $350 for labor...would you really be willing to pay $840 to have your table recovered by me?
Glen
I was assuming the mechanic had paid wholesale for it... not retail. I would NOT pay retail marked up another 50%. That would be unfair. I believe the mechanic should be able to buy the cloth at the dealer price.... wholesale. If they can't then they have to sell it to me with no profit or I'lll get it myself and pay them to install it.
It''s up to the mechanic to make a deal with the cloth company so he can profit from the sale of the cloth.
It is...LOL I idle out about $700 a month not being able to shut this damn truck off at night, then drive out another $400 to $1,000 a week or more delivering tables, and the rising cost of fuel has not been figured into the delivery charges as of yet, because for the most part, the delivery charges are figured anywhere from 6 weeks to 4-5 months in the PAST by Diamond with no sur-charge for current prices of fuelscruffy1 said:
Glen
No, Diamond is notscruffy1 said:
Glen
That's what I'm saying Jim, cost keep going up, to the point that it makes it hard for me to have a mark up, I'm going to start looking at the manufacture to start kicking back some of that cost to me to endorse installing it. If I have to sign up for some kind of a program to get them kick backs, I will...but, I'm a wanting something...trust meJimS said:
Glen
scruffy1 said:
Diamond, at one point, and until they were called on it, was advertising and selling Simonis for less than MAP. They "may" still be selling it lower because MAP only covers "advertised" prices so what transpires on the phone could be a different story (and price). I'm not singling out Diamond but it fit with what RKC was saying in that they apparently sold at the same price to both end users and mechanics.
As for Championship, I spoke with Fred from D&R about MAP back at the BCA show and again about 2 weeks ago by phone. I believe it's something he wants to do but IMO, talk is cheap - and the lowball Championship prices I see advertised do nothing but cheapen their brand.
That's why I buy cloth from Diamond, I DO get that little kick back, like I should. I even go so far as to try and have the table owner pay Diamond by credit card so they pay for shipping as well. After the job is done, I get my little commission from Diamond...and everyone is happyscruffy1 said:
Glen
PS. Same with Artemis Intercontinental K55 cushions, owner pays, I install, and have a great relationship with Diamond....I like it
Yes Rick, I amDartman said:Are you better satisfied with the responses now Glen? LMAO
I think a perfect situation would be to go out, recover the tables, with the owner supplied cloth, get the job done at my labor rates, then fax in the invoice to the cloth distributor, and get my kickback for the job, and say hey...got any more jobs for me to do? And if I get a call for a recovery, talk to the owner about getting some cloth, tell them to call so and so, and when the cloth comes in, let me know and I'll schedule the job and my charges are....so and so Glen
I look at it this way folks -
To recover a table I charge $x per hour, not a flat rate since I am unaware of any hidden problems requiring extra time.
If you want to buy cloth from me the price is $x for Simonis, $x for Titan, $x for Mali, etc - OR you can supply the cloth.
If you need new pockets or liners the price is $x.
No matter how it goes, I am paid for my labor as a mechanic.
If I also want to be in the cloth business then I'll buy at wholesale prices and sell at the going rate for the particular cloth and make the same profit another retailer would make on that cut of cloth.
It's a business - and the best products bring the highest prices.
Frankly, if one can't afford Simonis or balks at the price there are many other cloths on the market.
To recover a table I charge $x per hour, not a flat rate since I am unaware of any hidden problems requiring extra time.
If you want to buy cloth from me the price is $x for Simonis, $x for Titan, $x for Mali, etc - OR you can supply the cloth.
If you need new pockets or liners the price is $x.
No matter how it goes, I am paid for my labor as a mechanic.
If I also want to be in the cloth business then I'll buy at wholesale prices and sell at the going rate for the particular cloth and make the same profit another retailer would make on that cut of cloth.
It's a business - and the best products bring the highest prices.
Frankly, if one can't afford Simonis or balks at the price there are many other cloths on the market.
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Your right rick, this is a business and in any business we are going to have individuals selling themselves or there products for less. We call it the
walmart effect.
We all , myself included would never sell cloth for addl 5 dollars but if
all of a sudden this one guy was selling 500 cuts a day from home, his
business model looks pretty good. Again walmart effect. high volume,low profit.
We all know the price breaks on quantity. i think that is the attn. getter
for most mnfrs. of everything. we have a member of the marathon group
we do work for and i tell you, i dont think anyone is buying cloth cheaper
then these guys.
walmart effect.
We all , myself included would never sell cloth for addl 5 dollars but if
all of a sudden this one guy was selling 500 cuts a day from home, his
business model looks pretty good. Again walmart effect. high volume,low profit.
We all know the price breaks on quantity. i think that is the attn. getter
for most mnfrs. of everything. we have a member of the marathon group
we do work for and i tell you, i dont think anyone is buying cloth cheaper
then these guys.
Personally, coming from a retail environment where I've had lots of people ask about buying the cloth to do the recover themselves, I sell all cloth for retail price. Example:
Guy has a cheapo table and kids and wants his table recovered in Mali because he's not a tournament player and wants the cloth to last 25 years and it's a bit softer for the cats to sleep on. Oh and mainly because it's much cheaper. He wants to save on labor by doing the work himself. He's pretty handy around the house...he changes all of his lightbulbs himself every time they go out, so he can probably handle it. How much just for the cloth?
Full retail.
Now I can explain to the same guy that for the $100 difference, it's VERY worth it to pay me to recover his table because if he makes one bad cut, he's got to buy more cloth at that price. For $100, our labor is CHEAP! I get the work every time. I make enough on the cloth and labor combined to make it worth doing the work and he gets the labor cheap enough to make it worth paying me to do it.
On the flip side... If I quote him cost on the cloth, now I have to charge more for my labor to maintain the same margin. To him, there's less value per $ in our labor. If he passes on it because it's just too much and he can handle it, now I make nothing on the cloth and a make nothing on the labor, and I lose money to pay the rent and keep my balls warm. (Aramith, that is).
Better value for the customer, more labor $ for me, and more respect in what we do. (can't count the times I've heard "Wow, now that I see how it's done, I'm glad I paid you guys!!!!")
Just my .02
Guy has a cheapo table and kids and wants his table recovered in Mali because he's not a tournament player and wants the cloth to last 25 years and it's a bit softer for the cats to sleep on. Oh and mainly because it's much cheaper. He wants to save on labor by doing the work himself. He's pretty handy around the house...he changes all of his lightbulbs himself every time they go out, so he can probably handle it. How much just for the cloth?
Full retail.
Now I can explain to the same guy that for the $100 difference, it's VERY worth it to pay me to recover his table because if he makes one bad cut, he's got to buy more cloth at that price. For $100, our labor is CHEAP! I get the work every time. I make enough on the cloth and labor combined to make it worth doing the work and he gets the labor cheap enough to make it worth paying me to do it.
On the flip side... If I quote him cost on the cloth, now I have to charge more for my labor to maintain the same margin. To him, there's less value per $ in our labor. If he passes on it because it's just too much and he can handle it, now I make nothing on the cloth and a make nothing on the labor, and I lose money to pay the rent and keep my balls warm. (Aramith, that is).
Better value for the customer, more labor $ for me, and more respect in what we do. (can't count the times I've heard "Wow, now that I see how it's done, I'm glad I paid you guys!!!!")
Just my .02
I hear what you're saying buddy, and I do understand that in this business you have to learn to hustle or your not going to last long. But trust me, building that reputation as an excellent technician has a lot to do with this business as well. I can't always justify the cost of cloth prices, but I will always defend my labor rates before I defend the price of clothClub Billiards said:
Glen