Maximum draw/follow/side

I'm not really interested in where you actually hit the CB. I'm more interested in where you are aiming at. So if you want maximum draw for example where do you want to aim (with the center of the tip).
Click to expand...

We know that the center of your tip is farther from center than the part of your tip that contacts the ball, but we can't know exactly what that looks like to you because your point of view probably isn't the same as ours (your head is higher or lower over the stick, or its more to one side than the other, or it's closer to or farther from the tip, or your eyes are closer/farther from your chin, etc.).

On top of that, the difference between maximum draw and miscueing is a very small distance, so you need to be very precise with your tip placement - which means you should learn where your tip is contacting the ball.

If you want to know where to aim the center of your tip for maximum spin (not just draw), then you should take the advice offered to you and experiment with a striped ball, checking the chalk marks to see how close you actually get to the edge of the stripe and remembering how it looked to you.

pj
chgo
 
I'll keep this short to avoid a war, but "maximum draw" lies in your stroke, not hitting lower on the cue ball.

Really, ALL draw is in the stroke. Hitting low on the cue ball does not produce draw, per se.

Some shots require bottom "english" (lets not argue semantics here) in order to push the cue ball, not screw it back.
Click to expand...

I'll keep this short too: nonsense.

pj
chgo
 
VonRhett said:
... Really, ALL draw is in the stroke. Hitting low on the cue ball does not produce draw, per se. ...
Click to expand...
Are you claiming that you can get lively draw without hitting the cue ball well below center?
 
I find that I stay within the 4 zone. I can draw up to 13 feet there. The key for me is total relaxation on the 4 to 10 foot draws. If you are relaxed you can draw with little effort. For 10+ feet you have to stay relaxed but you also have to snap you wrist more.
 
For 10+ feet you have to stay relaxed but you also have to snap you wrist more.
Click to expand...

I'm not so sure about this. Do Massey or Sayginer snap their wrists?

I think for massive draw you have to be able to hit the ball hard and low and on demand. That's a tough combination, but I don't think it takes any special kind of stroke - only one that's very accurate at very high speed.

pj
chgo
 
No, of course not Bob!

I'm saying that hitting below center in and of itself does not automatically produce lively draw.

-von

Bob Jewett said:
Are you claiming that you can get lively draw without hitting the cue ball well below center?
Click to expand...
 
Patrick Johnson said:
I believe that's about right. That's somewhere around the "3" or "4" line, not the "5" line and definitely not the red line. On a striped Centennial ball it's just about at the edge of the stripe.



Yes, and many players think they're hitting farther from center than they actually are because of this difference. I don't think actual contact can be consistently made outside the "3" or "4" line without miscueing, much less outside the "5" line as some claim.

To verify where you hit, clean the cue ball first and then look for the chalk mark afterwards.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...
Hey Pat,
Just a thought, but after the clean cue ball with a chalk mark stops rolling around how will you know it's origional position prior to hitting it?
 
atthecat said:
I find that I stay within the 4 zone. I can draw up to 13 feet there. The key for me is total relaxation on the 4 to 10 foot draws. If you are relaxed you can draw with little effort. For 10+ feet you have to stay relaxed but you also have to snap you wrist more.
Click to expand...
The key to maximum draw is striking the cueball at it's most extreme outer edge with a relaxed level cue and absolute follow thru (A firm closed bridge held close to the playing surface helps as it keeps the shaft from deflecting as the tip passes thru the cue ball)...believe me, I've been doing it for years.
P.S. Make sure your cue tip is well scuffed and chalked.
 
chicagomike said:
The key to maximum draw is striking the cueball at it's most extreme outer edge with a relaxed level cue and absolute follow thru (A firm closed bridge held close to the playing surface helps as it keeps the shaft from deflecting as the tip passes thru the cue ball)...believe me, I've been doing it for years.
P.S. Make sure your cue tip is well scuffed and chalked.
Click to expand...
As a matter of fact this applies to any maximum english to be applied. The only factor that will change is the height of your bridge.
 
Hey Pat,
Just a thought, but after the clean cue ball with a chalk mark stops rolling around how will you know it's origional position prior to hitting it?
Click to expand...

Use a striped ball as the cue ball. Orient the stripe either vertically (for sidespin) or horizontally (for draw or follow). Maximum spin is right about at the edge of the stripe.

pj
chgo
 
VonRhett said:
No, of course not Bob!

I'm saying that hitting below center in and of itself does not automatically produce lively draw.

-von
Click to expand...


Von,
I can get lively draw hitting above center....it's called a masse.
But, actually when you are sighting the cue ball from above on a masse...it's below center aim.

I think I understand what you are saying. Stroke has a lot to do with the amount of cue ball action you'll produce.

Hitting well below center can only allow for a certain amount of power. Too much power will cause the CB to rise from the bed of the table.

Using more center ball will allow you to put more power into the stroke.....but why use more power, when you can use less power by aiming a little lower. Using more power makes it more difficult to maintain CB control....and it sends the OB to the pocket really hard and fast with the potential of popping back out of the pocket.

On a similiar note, when I power break..I use a hair below center, but I use a back hand english/follow through stroke. This minimizes the CB jumping effect. I don't use well below center contact because the CB will fly off the table. But, even with a hair of below center...the cue ball will jump. If you have ever seen the slow motion videos during Pro televised events, you'll know what I am talking about. I know this isn't related to CB action, but I am sure if I use my break stroke on a regular shot, I would get a lot of CB action. It just wouldn't be practical...because the OB would go nuclear. But toning it the strength down a little, and using my break stroke would give a lot of CB action.

Again, using well below center with less power is better in terms of the OB's speed and the management of the CB's track line.

I think the contact point really depends on the shot. Generally, I use a hair below center with a snap stroke for "snap back draw".....usually on short shots in which I cannot use a long follow through stroke. If the balls are frozen, then of course the masse is the way to go. For shots with a long distance between the OB and CB, using well below center and a firm stroke has the most reliable results.
 
Bob Jewett said:
It's not draw, and it's only Sayginer, but it is a great deal of spin on the ball. See the shot at 3:35 on http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDMX7RBhWaM

It looks to me like his wrist is not snapping.
Click to expand...

See shot 19 at 8:17 for a snappy wrist and the CB limit that can be hit and still get draw. Of couse the ball comes off the table but what glorious draw. And dare I say it, his wrist appars to be quite relaxed.
 
Forget all the engineering diagrams, The bottom line on what results
you get when you strike the cue ball are; quality of stroke,distance
from the OB, and ability/experience. There is no substitute for practice!
 
Excellent point Bob, never heard it put that way. To an accomplished
player that is probably automatic.
 
JoeW said:
See shot 19 at 8:17 for a snappy wrist and the CB limit that can be hit and still get draw. Of couse the ball comes off the table but what glorious draw. And dare I say it, his wrist appars to be quite relaxed.
Click to expand...
Well, I think the best view of the shot is at about 8:32 and I can't see that the wrist is being snapped forward at impact. How many degrees do you estimate it is coming forward? I think we need slow motion from the side with his sleeve rolled up.
 
good thinking!

Excellent point Bob, never heard it put that way. To an accomplished
player that is probably automatic.
 
Bob Jewett said:
Well, I think the best view of the shot is at about 8:32 and I can't see that the wrist is being snapped forward at impact. How many degrees do you estimate it is coming forward? I think we need slow motion from the side with his sleeve rolled up.
Click to expand...

Well we may need to get into a Bill Clintonesque discussion of what one means by snappy wrist :D But I would first suggest a look at his wrist in the opening shot someplace around 14 - 17 seconds. Sure looks like a loose wrist to me.:eek:
 
we may need to get into a Bill Clintonesque discussion of what one means by snappy wrist
Click to expand...

I think the threshhold question is whether snapping the wrist can add significantly to stroke speed. Is it possible given the arm and wrist mechanics?

The forearm is a 12-inch hinged arm accelerated over a distance of 12 inches using a large muscle. The wrist is a 3-inch hinged arm accelerated over a distance of 3 inches using a smaller muscle. Because of the wrist arm's shorter length, the wrist muscle can fully flex more quickly than the bicep, but its short length limits its added effectiveness.

The wrist's motion isn't "amplified" in a pool stroke like it is in a baseball or golf swing because it lacks the added length of the bat or club, so its contribution to the stroke is limited to the speed it can add over its own short stroke length. I can't prove anything, but I think its effectiveness is usually way overestimated.

I'm betting Sayginer's stroke speed would not be diminished dramatically with a locked wrist. By that I mean not by as much as, say, 15 percent (1/7).

pj
chgo
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top