Maximum draw/follow/side

[softshot]

to piggy back on other posts..

if you miscue all the time you are reaching to far.

if you never miscue your not reaching far enough.

 

[okinawa77]

to piggy back on other posts..

if you miscue all the time you are reaching to far.

if you never miscue your not reaching far enough.

So, how many miscues are just right?

 

[JoeW]

I think the threshhold question is whether snapping the wrist can add significantly to stroke speed. Is it possible given the arm and wrist mechanics?

The forearm is a 12-inch hinged arm accelerated over a distance of 12 inches using a large muscle. The wrist is a 3-inch hinged arm accelerated over a distance of 3 inches using a smaller muscle. Because of the wrist arm's shorter length, the wrist muscle can fully flex more quickly than the bicep, but its short length limits its added effectiveness.

The wrist's motion isn't "amplified" in a pool stroke like it is in a baseball or golf swing because it lacks the added length of the bat or club, so its contribution to the stroke is limited to the speed it can add over its own short stroke length. I can't prove anything, but I think its effectiveness is usually way overestimated.

I'm betting Sayginer's stroke speed would not be diminished dramatically with a locked wrist. By that I mean not by as much as, say, 15 percent (1/7).

pj
chgo

Not sure about that PJ. The wrist is a lever on a lever so the effect is magnified. If Sayginer uses some form of loose wrist to achive the acceleration he gets on the CB, there must be something to it. And a 15% gain in any sport is a significant gain. What it takes to master the techniqe may be another matter. Seems that a study is needed based solely on the idea that Sayginer is using some form of wrist assist -- there I avoided the dreaded semantic argument.

Apparently the wrist action on a baseball bat can be useful. If you think about the mechanics involved, the differences are not sufficient to dismiss cue stick wrist action as a potential tool for some pool players.

After reading about the martial arts expert who set the world speed break record (or so I read), I tried his straight arm technique. I do not have a radar gun and can only say that with practice, in one break instance, I got the most spread of balls I have ever obtained on a 9 foot table. Now that is something else to think about when it comes to levers and the assistance obtained from a moving shoulder, etc.

A little action here, some from there and it all ads up

 

[BRKNRUN]

I think there is a little "perception" confusion for some people.

I would bet that you would find quite a few that think they are only hitting just below center to apply draw, when in reality they are working so hard at not dropping the elbow that the tip dips at impact hitting lower than their actual aim on the CB.

If they try and aim lower...they miscue (becuase of the tip dip)

NOTE: I am not saying that you need elbow drop...I am implying that there is a different flaw in that persons stroke...(probably holding the grip to far forward)

As far as the whippy wrist vs. the tight wrist. I think its a matter of personal timing.

I saw a video of St Louis Louie saying you need to "SNAP" your wrist for the extreme draw..."Snap that Wrist"

On the other hand I have also seen mention of keeping the wrist firmer...(Not riged like Steel, but more like a tensed rubber band)

I am no Scientist, but I would imagine that the lower you hit on the CB the more energy is transferred into the spin of the CB....The higher you hit on the CB (with the same stroke) the more energy is applied to the forward motion of the CB.

My guess is that the happy medium for effective draw would be (actual contact) somewhere between 3 & 4 on the Rempe ball.

 

[Bob Jewett]

So, how many miscues are just right?

I'd say about 5-10% in practice if you are working on extreme spin. Most players never get even half way to miscue territory. The first thing you have to learn for this is how to chalk and how to repair miscues.

On the other hand, I know one pretty good player who absolutely refused to ever hit with more than half a tip of side spin. That's another way to avoid miscues.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

The wrist is a lever on a lever so the effect is magnified.

What is this "lever" you speak of? In baseball and golf the wrist "leverages" the extended length of the bat or the club, but it has no similar extension to work with in pool - it's simply the hand itself adding its unleveraged movement to the arm's movement. I think the added stroke speed can be demonstrated by hitting a ball by moving only the wrist - not a dramatic increase.

If Sayginer uses some form of loose wrist to achive the acceleration he gets on the CB, there must be something to it.

That's the "if" we're discussing. The fact that his wrist is loose isn't proof that he "achieves the acceleration" that way.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

My guess is that the happy medium for effective draw would be (actual contact) somewhere between 3 & 4 on the Rempe ball.

I think that's about the miscue limit (halfway to the edge), so it's more like the "happy extreme".

pj
chgo

 

[berlowmj]

CB & OB far apart

What is this "lever" you speak of? In baseball and golf the wrist "leverages" the extended length of the bat or the club, but it has no similar extension to work with in pool - it's simply the hand itself adding its unleveraged movement to the arm's movement. I think the added stroke speed can be demonstrated by hitting a ball by moving only the wrist - not a dramatic increase.



That's the "if" we're discussing. The fact that his wrist is loose isn't proof that he "achieves the acceleration" that way.

pj
chgo

Once the CB & OB are 1/2 the length of the table from each other the length of draw really diminishes. Help?

 

[Colin Colenso]

The wrist does act as a lever. Or is that a fulcrum about the hand as a lever, though it is only a few inches long. That said, small levers can develop significant forces. Take the calves in jumping as an example.

So flicking or snapping the wrist can lead to significant increases in cue speed.

Of course, the CB knows nothing about any rate of acceleration at tip impact, only the mass, velocity, direction, position.

So the wrist snap, a result of a relaxed wrist perhaps, is more or less a tool to develop cue velocity in a controlled way. i.e. Without lunging or straining the body.

Colin

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Once the CB & OB are 1/2 the length of the table from each other the length of draw really diminishes. Help?

I'm guessing that when you have to shoot harder your stroke's accuracy diminishes so you don't hit as low on the CB. Try watching the hit on the CB when practicing those shots.

pj
chgo

 

[Hail Mary Shot]

I'm practicing with some maximum english. Sometimes I got some miscueing. When drawing the CB, I would shovel it instead. So, I'm wondering how much english can you apply on a cueball.

Beneath I've add a picture, can you say where you can hit without miscueing. Will the 5-line be the maximum, or can you hit even more at the edge of the CB?

I usually try to hit the place between the 5-line and the red-line, but miscue often. Hitting the 5-line is just right to me. But shall I practice to aim more at the edge?

hi Wesley, may I ask you if you really need to hit that extreme? you can get the results that you are looking for at around 4-4.5. hitting the CB beyond 5 is quite pointless, unless you are doing shots like extreme masses and jumps or doing a trickshot exhibition. chalk and tip (size and type) also plays a part.

as for your question on how much mustard I can put on a CB, I can draw it full table and a 2 inch rebound at around 4 using a 13mm (EM md).

 

[Patrick Johnson]

The wrist does act as a lever. Or is that a fulcrum about the hand as a lever, though it is only a few inches long. That said, small levers can develop significant forces. Take the calves in jumping as an example.

The term "lever" implies there's some "leverage" going on, a magnification of movement like if you had a really long oar in a rowboat - moving the handle a little distance would move the blade at the other end a larger distance at a faster speed. There's no leverage with wrist movement, just simple "hinge" action that doesn't magnify the effect.

So flicking or snapping the wrist can lead to significant increases in cue speed.

It adds to cue speed, and I suppose it's a "significant" addition, but it's not more than you could get by moving your forearm a little faster.

Of course, the CB knows nothing about any rate of acceleration at tip impact, only the mass, velocity, direction, position.

Yes, but then that's what we're talking about: the total speed at impact, not the rate of acceleration.

So the wrist snap, a result of a relaxed wrist perhaps, is more or less a tool to develop cue velocity in a controlled way. i.e. Without lunging or straining the body.

I think this is the real value of wrist action: you can add a little speed (not a lot) to the cue without pushing the large muscles of your arm beyond their "controlled speed limit", which might make your stroke less straight.

pj
chgo