Maximum Pocket Size?

[Patrick Johnson]

Given that pocket specs (at least in the WPA rules) say the facing angle must be 142-143°, and that the "throat" of the pocket must be no wider than the edges of the pocket liner (or it would interfere) - from those parameters, if we know the width of the opening between the pocket liner's edges we can deduce the maximum legal width of the pocket's mouth (about 3/4" wider).

So does anybody know the width of the opening between pocket liner edges for different table makes...?

pj
chgo

 

[pt109]

Greg Sullivan mentioned in his HOF speech that he asked BCA for specifics on pockets...no response.
....so he makes his standard pocket 4.5 at the points.
....but even that is a bit vague.....I suggested RKC make a template like snooker has...but he aint touching it.
The template governs the total shape of the pocket, including where the fall is on the slate.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Greg Sullivan mentioned in his HOF speech that he asked BCA for specifics on pockets...no response.
....so he makes his standard pocket 4.5 at the points.
....but even that is a bit vague.....I suggested RKC make a template like snooker has...but he aint touching it.
The template governs the total shape of the pocket, including where the fall is on the slate.

I believe the WPA table specs with the various angles was authored by Greg.

The problem for the BCA and the reason why they publish the "recreational" specs is that the members' products need to be within the specs.

 

[ChrisinNC]

Measurements between pocket liner edges:

Diamond smart 7 foot - 4” corners,
4-1/4” sides.

Gabriels signature pro and Sentinel -
4-1/4” corners and sides.

 

[HawaiianEye]

The dimensions of all tables of equal size should be the same, unless someone is ordering custom.

All these BS bastardized tables, pool cue joints, etc. ruin the game and products.

Some people say pockets are too big. OK Mosconi, why aren’t you’re running multi-packs?

If the tables are too easy, extend the number of games in the set.

 

[straightline]

The dimensions of all tables of equal size should be the same, unless someone is ordering custom.

All these BS bastardized tables, pool cue joints, etc. ruin the game and products.

Some people say pockets are too big. OK Mosconi, why aren’t you’re running multi-packs?

If the tables are too easy, extend the number of games in the set.

I'm not a player but it is the precision of the craft that keeps me interested. I literally cannot stay interested in bowling alley pockets - even standard Gold Crowns. Loose tables just keep the dog population healthy.

 

[HawaiianEye]

I'm not a player but it is the precision of the craft that keeps me interested. I literally cannot stay interested in bowling alley pockets - even standard Gold Crowns. Loose tables just keep the dog population healthy.

I had rather see a pro run five racks in a row than to see the same pro struggle, like a banger, because the pockets are too tight and spit out balls.

Newer people to pool are not going to gain any interest by playing on tables that even experienced players have difficulty with.

A golf hole is 4.25”.

A regulation basketball goal is 10’ from the ground.

A football field is 100 yards.

Why do they have standards?

 

[straightline]

I had rather see a pro run five racks in a row than to see the same pro struggle, like a banger, because the pockets are too tight and spit out balls.

Newer people to pool are not going to gain any interest by playing on tables that even experienced players have difficulty with.

A golf hole is 4.25”.

A regulation basketball goal is 10’ from the ground.

A football field is 100 yards.

Why do they have standards?

Those are just averages - to accommodate the you know...

I agree stiffening the requirements beyond the headroom of the pros is not a good thing. Still, there has to be an evolution of the genre so players can evolve. As it stands today, there's barely even pool.

 

[HawaiianEye]

Those are just averages - to accommodate the you know...

I agree stiffening the requirements beyond the headroom of the pros is not a good thing. Still, there has to be an evolution of the genre so players can evolve. As it stands today, there's barely even pool.

You said you were not a player.

Go fix basketball.

 

[straightline]

You said you were not a player.

Go fix basketball.

I'm not a player. I find my pool concerns more relevant than the concerns of the player industry. The one that requires constant cash input. Pool makes a wonderful toy lemme tellya...

 

[tomatoshooter]

I had rather see a pro run five racks in a row than to see the same pro struggle, like a banger, because the pockets are too tight and spit out balls.

It's when all the pros are running racks constantly that the game gets boring. Break and run, break and run, break and run. I wan watching Melling and Immonen play 14.1. I don't think either had a run of more than 30. It was a far more exciting match than watching Mike Sigel run 150. Some of the 10 foot table matches are great because there is more back and forth.

 

[straightline]

It's when all the pros are running racks constantly that the game gets boring. Break and run, break and run, break and run. I wan watching Melling and Immonen play 14.1. I don't think either had a run of more than 30. It was a far more exciting match than watching Mike Sigel run 150. Some of the 10 foot table matches are great because there is more back and forth.

I think (know) pool can grow into very stringent requirements. Players need to lose the step on the gas and freewheel mindset and learn high quality performance. Tight pockets doesn't have to mean cosmos only. The only real requirement is perfected shot making. Garreth Potts is showing signs right?

 

[Straightpool_99]

Super tight pockets and alternate breaks ruined pool. Now everyone is taking forever to shoot and every game is a snoozefest. A standard pocket size would be great, but it would have to be reasonable. Watching Earl play reminded me of what we lost. Quick games with many racks run. Exiting matches with big comebacks etc..

Straightline: There are allready games with snooker pockets, like Chinese 8 ball. I suggest you watch that. American pool isn't really about pocketing into tight pockets, as much as it is about position and rhytm play, big power shots, big breaks etc..It's a game of style, flair and creating opportunities. Chinese 8 ball is clinical, methodical and precise, the way you like. It's also quite boring to watch, unfortunately, though I like playing it.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Measurements between pocket liner edges:

Diamond smart 7 foot - 4” corners,
4-1/4” sides.

Gabriels signature pro and Sentinel -
4-1/4” corners and sides.

Thanks, Chris.

So on those tables the maximum corner pocket size is 4 3/4” (Diamond) and 5” (Gabriel). Anything more would indicate facing angles too “open” (or pocket liners protruding).

pj
chgo

 

[Fatboy]

It's when all the pros are running racks constantly that the game gets boring. Break and run, break and run, break and run. I wan watching Melling and Immonen play 14.1. I don't think either had a run of more than 30. It was a far more exciting match than watching Mike Sigel run 150. Some of the 10 foot table matches are great because there is more back and forth.

Mike was always fun to watch. For lots of reasons. In real life at tourneys in the 80’s I watched him rob everyone. When Mike is out in front game over-he just closes it out. Next. Possibly the greatest front runner ever.

Mike wasn’t a milk drinker-he was a great player, showman, and super talent. Tuxedo tourney he played 2 balls better. He loves & thrives under the lights on the biggest stages. Appleton does that real well also.

Fun guys to sweat, love or hate them-they are part of the conversation. The milk drinker robots playing 900 TPA pool are kinda boring. Personality is my point. Characters

Fatboy, can’t play but am a bit colorful at times. I pick my spots.

Thanks to everyone on AZB over the years too. Happy New Year, Off to bed rambling on….433am.

Fatboy will continue to post here, it’s been fun and honing my writing skills still. This helps. I appreciate everyone who takes their time to read what I write.

I tortured you guys for years with horrible writing. I’m on the make up

 

[straightline]

Super tight pockets and alternate breaks ruined pool. Now everyone is taking forever to shoot and every game is a snoozefest. A standard pocket size would be great, but it would have to be reasonable. Watching Earl play reminded me of what we lost. Quick games with many racks run. Exiting matches with big comebacks etc..

Straightline: There are allready games with snooker pockets, like Chinese 8 ball. I suggest you watch that. American pool isn't really about pocketing into tight pockets, as much as it is about position and rhytm play, big power shots, big breaks etc..It's a game of style, flair and creating opportunities. Chinese 8 ball is clinical, methodical and precise, the way you like. It's also quite boring to watch, unfortunately, though I like playing it.

Snooker pockets are bogus. Rail shots are eliminated. Chinese pool is very dull as a consequence.
I always bring up the concept of jawless pockets because of this. If pockets were cut 90 degrees to the nose of the cushions, the apertures could be brought down to 3.5 inches or less yet rail shots would be available over the entire range of ball speed. All that's required of the players is to improve their shot making technique.
That tight pockets would ruin pool is testament to the fact that pros aren't of the level to deal with them. Pretty sad in that regard.

 

[realkingcobra]

I believe the WPA table specs with the various angles was authored by Greg.

The problem for the BCA and the reason why they publish the "recreational" specs is that the members' products need to be within the specs.

Craig Connelly, not Greg

 

[realkingcobra]

Here's the million dollar question. If Olhausen were to standardize their table pockets to Pro Cut 4 1/2" and 5" would that cause an increase or decrease in their sales???

 

[mikemosconi]

Many people on a site like this want and like pro cut pockets= but 90% of the rest of the population who own or will ever buy a home table or visit a pool room or play in a bar would favor very generous pockets- I think what many people here fail to admit is that the long term success of most sport or game recreational endeavors must rely on having massive numbers of recreational participants who can enjoy some degree of instant gratification from just being a participant in that sport or game. THOSE are the folks who end up buying the massive amounts of production pool cues, home pool tables, golf clubs, tennis racquets, baseball gloves, etc. etc.

Save the pro- cut anything for the more serious, established players, whether at home or in a pool room. Even then, let's be honest, if you do not have several hours a week to devote to playing on pro cut pockets- they will not be very enjoyable, unless you like to miss a lot.

As for Olhausen, their pocket rattle is the most ridiculous design screw- up imaginable. Did those guys seriously ever "test' their pocket configuration before going into production - and for years and years just kept pumping out the same pocket design flaw.

 

[ChrisinNC]

Many people on a site like this want and like pro cut pockets= but 90% of the rest of the population who own or will ever buy a home table or visit a pool room or play in a bar would favor very generous pockets- I think what many people here fail to admit is that the long term success of most sport or game recreational endeavors must rely on having massive numbers of recreational participants who can enjoy some degree of instant gratification from just being a participant in that sport or game. THOSE are the folks who end up buying the massive amounts of production pool cues, home pool tables, golf clubs, tennis racquets, baseball gloves, etc. etc.

Save the pro- cut anything for the more serious, established players, whether at home or in a pool room. Even then, let's be honest, if you do not have several hours a week to devote to playing on pro cut pockets- they will not be very enjoyable, unless you like to miss a lot.

As for Olhausen, their pocket rattle is the most ridiculous design screw- up imaginable. Did those guys seriously ever "test' their pocket configuration before going into production - and for years and years just kept pumping out the same pocket design flaw.

Yes, that is certainly the problem with any pockets in excess of 5”, as the pocket facing angles inside the pockets may exceed 145°, which will make shots down the rails hit with pace harder to pocket than on a Diamond 4-1/2” pocket table.