Measure of skill in straight pool????

[Williebetmore]

I have been dying to broach this subject for quite some time: how much does the toughness of the equipment affect your ability to run balls in straight pool???

There are players on another thread suggesting that high run is a valid measure of skill. My problem with this is that I am competing with 3 guys who all have high runs (loose equipment I think) in the 70's, my high run is 45 (one of the few times I have played on loose equipment). I almost always beat these guys (we play on tight equipment), and none of them has ever run more than 35 against me. None of the pro's I have played with has run more than 45 on this equipment against me. I think my high run on these tight tables is in the 30's. I almost never play on loose tables.

My goal is to someday run 100, but is this even conceiveable on tight equipment?? Should I give up this goal, or should I take the shims out of my GCIV and make the pockets into washtubs?? When Jim Rempe says you should be "raining 100's" when you are practicing, does he mean on tight tables?? Danny DiLiberto said the top 9-ball players would not be running 150's if they had to play on these types of tables (without having to learn straight pool skills first), do you agree?? What kind of runs should an "A" player be making on these types of tables vs. the loose tables???

I would appreciate any input I can get (my instructor is strictly a 9-ball player, and doesn't even offer an opinion on these things). Thanks in advance.

FYI my pockets are tighter than the ones at the DCC this year. The tight table's I'm talking about are cut even tighter and deeper than my home table.

 

[Rackin_Zack]

I love straight pool but I don't get to play very often because very few people around here will play the game, and if they do I am generally better than them so I can't really learn to play the game correctly. In my limited knowledge I would say that average high run or consistent high run would be more a measure of skill. Now in my case there isn't much difference, my consistant high run is about 20 and my high run is 30, albeit on reasonably loose tables (stock GCIIs w/o shims). I have a similar goal to you but I have a very long way to go as I can't even get a competitive game of 14.1 around here (and by competitive I mean someone that punishes my mistakes and plays good safteys). I just thought I'd throw in my two cents even though I'm a very green 14.1 player...lol.

I have been dying to broach this subject for quite some time: how much does the toughness of the equipment affect your ability to run balls in straight pool???

There are players on another thread suggesting that high run is a valid measure of skill. My problem with this is that I am competing with 3 guys who all have high runs (loose equipment I think) in the 70's, my high run is 45 (one of the few times I have played on loose equipment). I almost always beat these guys (we play on tight equipment), and none of them has ever run more than 35 against me. None of the pro's I have played with has run more than 45 on this equipment against me. I think my high run on these tight tables is in the 30's. I almost never play on loose tables.

My goal is to someday run 100, but is this even conceiveable on tight equipment?? Should I give up this goal, or should I take the shims out of my GCIV and make the pockets into washtubs?? When Jim Rempe says you should be "raining 100's" when you are practicing, does he mean on tight tables?? Danny DiLiberto said the top 9-ball players would not be running 150's if they had to play on these types of tables (without having to learn straight pool skills first), do you agree?? What kind of runs should an "A" player be making on these types of tables vs. the loose tables???

I would appreciate any input I can get (my instructor is strictly a 9-ball player, and doesn't even offer an opinion on these things). Thanks in advance.

FYI my pockets are tighter than the ones at the DCC this year. The tight table's I'm talking about are cut even tighter and deeper than my home table.

 

[jhendri2]

First, are the players with the high runs in the 70's verifiable? Second, yes equipment will make a difference, especially on shots with speed.

Is your GC shimmed to 4" pockets? Do you ever play straight on different equipment?

Pockets and equipment were made easier to play on for the pool rooms. Players who can go in and sink balls will come back, if they don't make shots they don't play anymore. Tables shrunk and pockets got bigger, it's just the way things are now. We may see a reverse in this trend but I don't forsee it.

Lastly, no I wonuldn't take your shims out, if you go to a pool hall and shoot some straight pool, the pockets should look like the Grand Canyon.

Of course, these are just my opinion FWIW,

Jim

 

[Rackin_Zack]

Joe, so what you're telling me is that I wasted my money purchasing one of the "high-run series" from accu-stats?!

Your post definitely makes a lot of sense and I never really thought of simonis like that before. Do you think that it is better when learning the game to try to go ahead and just pick off balls from the rack a little at a time instead of breaking the balls as open as possible?

 

[JLW]

I agree that the cloth can make a huge difference in straight pool. I watch pros playing on video, and it looks like the rack flies apart when they barely bump it. My table has a very thick cloth, (I'm not sure what type it is) and I've noticed several things:

1. In addition to being difficult to break balls apart, balls tend to fall against one another and "stick" together when they hit each other.

2. It requires an extreme amount of english to move the ball around the table.

3. Drawing the ball is much more difficult compared to other tables I play on.

I gave up on trying to play straight pool and have just been putting the balls out on the table and trying to run out the 15 balls. Once I run 15, I pull them all out and continue till I miss. I'm planning on putting new felt on in the near future. One question I have is.. Since I'm not strictly playing straight pool, how good is my high run? I ran 118 balls a few weeks ago. Was pretty proud of myself, but, like I said, how good is that for just running balls off the table? I would appreciate any feedback.

 

[Rod]

I have been dying to broach this subject for quite some time: how much does the toughness of the equipment affect your ability to run balls in straight pool???

There are players on another thread suggesting that high run is a valid measure of skill. My problem with this is that I am competing with 3 guys who all have high runs (loose equipment I think) in the 70's, my high run is 45 (one of the few times I have played on loose equipment). I almost always beat these guys (we play on tight equipment), and none of them has ever run more than 35 against me. None of the pro's I have played with has run more than 45 on this equipment against me. I think my high run on these tight tables is in the 30's. I almost never play on loose tables.

My goal is to someday run 100, but is this even conceiveable on tight equipment?? Should I give up this goal, or should I take the shims out of my GCIV and make the pockets into washtubs?? When Jim Rempe says you should be "raining 100's" when you are practicing, does he mean on tight tables?? Danny DiLiberto said the top 9-ball players would not be running 150's if they had to play on these types of tables (without having to learn straight pool skills first), do you agree?? What kind of runs should an "A" player be making on these types of tables vs. the loose tables???

I would appreciate any input I can get (my instructor is strictly a 9-ball player, and doesn't even offer an opinion on these things). Thanks in advance.

FYI my pockets are tighter than the ones at the DCC this year. The tight table's I'm talking about are cut even tighter and deeper than my home table.

Equipment and pocket size makes a big difference. Other details like how the pockets are cut is another. I see some shots go watching some tournaments the pro's play that should have never went.

If your playing on tighter equiment, those long shots will make your butt pucker. It will change your playing style depeding on equipment used. I think it's important to note that the pro's play on new or near new tables and cloth. I don't think cloth is that big of a deal as Joe mentioned. Give me 80/20 that's new and 4 1/2" pockets , it will play well.

What makes a difference to me at least is the equipment used in different rooms. Some have fast rails, some slow, most have worn used balls. The worn balls is what makes a difference. If they don't rack well, they don't break well. Now just couple that with french fries and ketsup, chalk & powder on balls and it gets worst.

Thats where it makes a big difference. So if your going to compare abilities/runs those items need to be considered as well. How do you do that? Believe me it does make a difference.

Rooms use to keep equipment it good condition, it's begining to be a thing of the past. I like to play a controlled game of 14-1. I don't want to splatter balls all over the table. I'll play hell doing that at some of the places I've played though. You have to smack em for a decent spread. Then you'll have to follow that up again a time or two. It use to be just a med stroke and a few nudges. I rarely play 14-1 anymore just for that reason.

Rod

 

[bruin70]

i think the best measure of your game is how everyone else does on the same table. but also consider how familiar you are with the equipment.....there's a comfort factor in that.

14.1 is the one game where you can measure your progress easily. it's my favorite. as for what rempe said,,,,,only great players rain 100's. just look at the stats at a 14.1 tourney.

are you a shooter or a position player?

 

[macguy]

I have been dying to broach this subject for quite some time: how much does the toughness of the equipment affect your ability to run balls in straight pool???

There are players on another thread suggesting that high run is a valid measure of skill. My problem with this is that I am competing with 3 guys who all have high runs (loose equipment I think) in the 70's, my high run is 45 (one of the few times I have played on loose equipment). I almost always beat these guys (we play on tight equipment), and none of them has ever run more than 35 against me. None of the pro's I have played with has run more than 45 on this equipment against me. I think my high run on these tight tables is in the 30's. I almost never play on loose tables.

My goal is to someday run 100, but is this even conceiveable on tight equipment?? Should I give up this goal, or should I take the shims out of my GCIV and make the pockets into washtubs?? When Jim Rempe says you should be "raining 100's" when you are practicing, does he mean on tight tables?? Danny DiLiberto said the top 9-ball players would not be running 150's if they had to play on these types of tables (without having to learn straight pool skills first), do you agree?? What kind of runs should an "A" player be making on these types of tables vs. the loose tables???

I would appreciate any input I can get (my instructor is strictly a 9-ball player, and doesn't even offer an opinion on these things). Thanks in advance.

FYI my pockets are tighter than the ones at the DCC this year. The tight table's I'm talking about are cut even tighter and deeper than my home table.

The table can be everything. A 100 ball run on a loose table may be nothing more the three or four shorter runs connected by badly hit balls that should not have gone but did. There are a variety of break shots that can be made on a loose table that would be very risky on a tight table such as a down the rail break shot. Another big factor is how easily the balls open. Years ago you would run into tables with cloth you could not get the balls open on. I was with Jimmy Caras at a collage playing an exhibition and they had put on new cloth. It was impossible to run 40 balls the cloth was so slow..

 

[TATE]

I have been dying to broach this subject for quite some time: how much does the toughness of the equipment affect your ability to run balls in straight pool???

There are players on another thread suggesting that high run is a valid measure of skill. My problem with this is that I am competing with 3 guys who all have high runs (loose equipment I think) in the 70's, my high run is 45 (one of the few times I have played on loose equipment). I almost always beat these guys (we play on tight equipment), and none of them has ever run more than 35 against me. None of the pro's I have played with has run more than 45 on this equipment against me. I think my high run on these tight tables is in the 30's. I almost never play on loose tables.

My goal is to someday run 100, but is this even conceiveable on tight equipment?? Should I give up this goal, or should I take the shims out of my GCIV and make the pockets into washtubs?? When Jim Rempe says you should be "raining 100's" when you are practicing, does he mean on tight tables?? Danny DiLiberto said the top 9-ball players would not be running 150's if they had to play on these types of tables (without having to learn straight pool skills first), do you agree?? What kind of runs should an "A" player be making on these types of tables vs. the loose tables???

I would appreciate any input I can get (my instructor is strictly a 9-ball player, and doesn't even offer an opinion on these things). Thanks in advance.

FYI my pockets are tighter than the ones at the DCC this year. The tight table's I'm talking about are cut even tighter and deeper than my home table.

Avoiding little mistakes equals long runs in straight pool.

The equipment makes a huge difference in avoiding those little mistakes. At one time, believe it or not, a lot of tables had 5 1/2 inch corners and sides - I've even seen larger sides. You never had to worry about making angle except on break shots because you could just cheat the pockets. Running 70 balls was work but not too difficult. Don't forget, if you get in trouble shooting back long shots the head table corners is easier too, and you can hit the sides easily from inside and behind the rack to make break outs.

Another thing that hasn't been mentioned is combo shots and billiard shots. The combo shot is integral to playing good straight pool - it's not optional like it is in other games. To get high runs you had to be able to combo and hit rack shots with caroms and throw balls in the pocket. With large pockets the margin for error makes these short shots relatively easy.


Now flash forward in time to todays 4 inch corners and 4.5' sides. Those same players would have a hard time running 20 balls on todays very tight equipment. Of course their opponent would too. In the good old days on sloppy tables, If I played for 2 or 3 hours, I would run a 50 or a 60 regularly. On tight tables, maybe 30 - 40 would be more like it. Break balls are spitting out at you, rack shots are jarring in the corners, combo's are easily missed, and you're hooked straight in with the slightest mistake.

I think tight tables makes a huge difference in straight pool. I can run pretty good with 4.5" pockets but 4" is really hard.

Chris

 

[TheOne]

Comming from a snooker / UK 8 ball background the pockets on any 9 ball table seem huge in comparision. However the Pro snooker players in my local club had their practice table set up to be much tighter than the tournament match tables. They did this so when it came to playing matches it seemed easier. To give you an idea of how tight these tables where, if you put the white ball on the long rail near a corner pocket and tried to fire it down the rail into the opposite corner you would miss several times out of ten - the ball would just rattle. Now imagine trying to pot an object ball down the rail! So I would encourage you to play on "tight" 9 ball tables as this would hopefully help your overall game. I don't know all the ins and outs of the 9 ball tables but playing in my first proper 9 ball comp in Reno last year I played on Diamond tables which I though where absolutely heavenly to play on. Some said they where tight, and that many pro's didn't like playing on them - was this a fair statement?

I have to say though, I am hoping to start playing full time again at the end of this year. If I can find a club with Diamond tables in Asia then I would expect to make a high run of well over a 100 comfortably within the first week.

 

[bruin70]

I don't understand your position? Your second sentence is confusing. If you're saying that what Jimmy means by "raining 100's" is that only GREAT players rain 100's I'd have to say that is what Jimmy means. He DOESN'T mean that you by practicing 14.1 ten hours a day 365 days a year will rain hundreds; but ME, practicing ten hours a day WILL rain 100's; you first have to have the ability and knowledge to do this, and you're not going to get it by playing the locals in your home billiard hall.

Now to get to "are you a shooter or a position player", again confusing???

I suppose you mean this in a general term, something like "if your a shooter you can play for long shots, if your a position player you play for easy shots".
I believe I cleared up both these points in my post; a shooter would not survive on 80/20 for long, you HAVE to play position on 80/20 to be a consistent 14.1 player or any other player for that matter.

If you're trying to imply that Jimmy's not a shooter you know NOTHING about pocket billiards, or else you're too young to know anything about Jimmy Rempe. Johnny's got a special portion of the site for himself, go over there and ask Archer if Jimmy is a "shooter".

MACGUY

Joe

wow,,,did i say all that? what i was getting at by asking if you are a position player or shooter, is that to play consistantly on a tight pocket you need to get close to the ball(ie position play), but now, i think you already know that. and by shooter, i meant do you rely on "9ball" shooting skills to play the game,,,as there are quite a few who play the game that way. i did not imply, nor should you infer, that the two don't go hand in hand or that rempe can't shoot. geez,,,where did you get THAT?

however your reply to me suggests you already know a lot about the game, and i don't get what the point of your post is. you're good enough to already know where you are in 14.1.

and i didn't start an argument.

 

[bruin70]

.

now that's odd. i thought i was replying to the thread starter, williebetmore,and i'm getting an incensed reply from you as if i am confronting YOU. who am i replying to? or are you both dead aim AND williebetmore, in which case you're too weird.

 

[lewdo26]

I have been dying to broach this subject for quite some time: how much does the toughness of the equipment affect your ability to run balls in straight pool???

There are players on another thread suggesting that high run is a valid measure of skill. My problem with this is that I am competing with 3 guys who all have high runs (loose equipment I think) in the 70's, my high run is 45 (one of the few times I have played on loose equipment). I almost always beat these guys (we play on tight equipment), and none of them has ever run more than 35 against me. None of the pro's I have played with has run more than 45 on this equipment against me. I think my high run on these tight tables is in the 30's. I almost never play on loose tables.

Good point, Williebetmore. My follow up question would then be: Is tighter equipment as much a factor in 9 ball as it is in straight pool? If it is, then comparing how many racks a player can string together would run us into the same problem. I guess the ideal comparison of playing ability would have to be made on identical equipment. For purposes of this 'honestly rate yourself' thread however, I think it might be easier (though imperfect) to gauge the playing strength of members of this forum by comparing straight pool high runs. So, if the equipment you play on isn't 4'', what is it?
I just thought of another related topic that has harassed me for a while.The comparison between snooker and pool. Snooker may seem like a more skillful game than any american game (with the possible exception of one pocket) because the pockets are tighter (even proportionally to the size of the balls, I think) and the table is larger. But wider pockets also gives pool certain aspects (like much heavier use of english and cheat the pocket shots) that make it interesting in a way that snooker couldn't be. I don't mean to derail your thread, but whenever I hear a discussion about straight pool and how it used to be played on 5x10's with tighter pockets, it immediately makes me think of snooker.

 

[sjm]

In the days of tight pockets in the World 14.1 Championships, 100 ball runs were pretty rare, perhaps five or six centuries per event. I believe Varner won the title in 1981 with a high run of 70.

At Corner Billiards in NYC, there used to be a super-tight table, which also happened to be Mika Immonen's favorite practice table. He often played straight pool on it, and I believe his longest run on it was 107, and I remember how proud he was of that run when he told me about it. On a looser table, Mika rains 100 ball runs. To my knowledge, neither Robles nor Barouty ever ran 100 on that absurdly tight table in the Monday straight pool league, though each has run over 200 many times on more reasonable equipment.

On 4 1/2 inch pockets, an "A" player has a realistic chance to run 100, but on a silly-tight table, I'd say that any run of over 28 is very good, and 100 takes a superstar of the game. In my opinion, an "A" player that runs 50 on such equipment has a lot to be proud of.

Any player that wants to compete at the game's highest level needs to pracitce on tight equipment, but Irving Crane told me repeatedly that he felt two days a week on super-tight equipment was enough.

I'm of the opinion that nearly nobody plays straight pool on silly-tight equipment (meaning tighter than 4 1/2 inches) anymore, so high run is a pretty good measure of skill. Just one man's opinion.

 

[TheOne]

SJM, hows it going. How would the Diamond tables (used in Reno event) rank on the greater scheme of things? Would these be considered tight?

 

[sjm]

SJM, hows it going. How would the Diamond tables (used in Reno event) rank on the greater scheme of things? Would these be considered tight?

Hey, theOne, hope all's well with you. don't know the exact table specs from Reno, but I'm guessing you are referring to Diamond tables cut to 4 1/2 inches. Because of the way the pockets are cut, Diamond tables cut to 4 1/2 inches must be considered to play tight.

 

[Rod]

Hey, theOne, hope all's well with you. don't know the exact table specs from Reno, but I'm guessing you are referring to Diamond tables cut to 4 1/2 inches. Because of the way the pockets are cut, Diamond tables cut to 4 1/2 inches must be considered to play tight.

I thought Diamonds were actually at closer to 4 3/8", could be wrong. I like the way there cut but the shelf (distance to edge of slate, or pocket drop off) is deeper.
I'd sure consider them playing on the tight side.

Rod

 

[Worminator]

Jimmy says the game has gotten too easy, if it were up to him (and other older pros) they would be playing on 80/20 Mali and tight 4 1/2 pockets; IN Tuxedos NOT grubby jeans and ratty shirts. It's the top players TODAY that were WEAKER players when the pros got to vote on what type of equipment to use, Jimmy said these WEAKER players voted on large pockets and "feels like I'm playing on glass" 860; because it was easy for them (weaker players) to play on.

My reply to those statements would be...why don't I see Jimmy on TV beating the brains out of the these "weaker" players and winning all the tournaments. Don't get me wrong, I love Jimmy, Mike Sigel, Nick Varner, and the players of that era. I would rather watch them than 95% of todays players. I also know that if they could beat todays players and stay in the spotlight...they would.

 

[JLW]

DeadAim-

Thanks for your response. I agree, there's a lot that I miss out on by playing this way. I do try to get the best position possible on each shot and really concentrate on moving the cb precisely. It has really improved the mental part of my game as well. I've learned to play the table and take one shot at a time. Any suggestions as far as the type of cloth I should consider getting? I want something that will allow me to play 14.1 without having to blast into the balls.

 

[Jimmy M.]

I thought Diamonds were actually at closer to 4 3/8", could be wrong. I like the way there cut but the shelf (distance to edge of slate, or pocket drop off) is deeper.
I'd sure consider them playing on the tight side.

Rod

The pockets on my Diamond are like ~4 1/4". Eh, maybe a little too tight.

(That isn't how they come from Diamond)