Measure of skill in straight pool????

[Rod]

The pockets on my Diamond are like ~4 1/4". Eh, maybe a little too tight.

(That isn't how they come from Diamond)

So that's why you shoot so straight. My older eyes can't handle a small amount of real estate. lol
What is the stock pocket size for the pro table? I know the non pro must be larger than 4 1/2".

Rod

 

[sjm]

I thought Diamonds were actually at closer to 4 3/8", could be wrong. I like the way there cut but the shelf (distance to edge of slate, or pocket drop off) is deeper.
I'd sure consider them playing on the tight side.

Rod

I'm sure you're right, Rodd, for I noted in my post I wasn't sure of the specs. Given the cut of the pockets on a Diamond, 4 3/8 is tight for certain! I reckon anyone who can run 100 with those specs can run 200 on more ordinary equipment.

 

[TATE]

In the days of tight pockets in the World 14.1 Championships, 100 ball runs were pretty rare, perhaps five or six centuries per event. I believe Varner won the title in 1981 with a high run of 70.

At Corner Billiards in NYC, there used to be a super-tight table, which also happened to be Mika Immonen's favorite practice table. He often played straight pool on it, and I believe his longest run on it was 107, and I remember how proud he was of that run when he told me about it. On a looser table, Mika rains 100 ball runs. To my knowledge, neither Robles nor Barouty ever ran 100 on that absurdly tight table in the Monday straight pool league, though each has run over 200 many times on more reasonable equipment.

On 4 1/2 inch pockets, an "A" player has a realistic chance to run 100, but on a silly-tight table, I'd say that any run of over 28 is very good, and 100 takes a superstar of the game. In my opinion, an "A" player that runs 50 on such equipment has a lot to be proud of.

Any player that wants to compete at the game's highest level needs to pracitce on tight equipment, but Irving Crane told me repeatedly that he felt two days a week on super-tight equipment was enough.

I'm of the opinion that nearly nobody plays straight pool on silly-tight equipment (meaning tighter than 4 1/2 inches) anymore, so high run is a pretty good measure of skill. Just one man's opinion.

Good post SJM.

 

[TATE]

My follow up question would then be: Is tighter equipment as much a factor in 9 ball as it is in straight pool?

Very tight equipment makes 9 ball a lot harder too, but for a few different reasons.

- Really tight corners take risky long table banks out of the game in favor of tricky safeties. The mentality is, let the other idiot shoot the hard bank and hope they miss. You have to have a lot of guts to try to bank the 9 long table with 4" corners.

- It is a lot harder to pocket a ball on the break with tight pockets. You won't see more than a couple of racks run on super tight tables unless the player gets really hot and gets some good rolls.

- The issues of nerves. If you get jumpy and start tightening up, virtually any shot can be missed. The tight pockets make it far easier to start dogging. You start trying to just cinch the shots instead of stroking through them.

The good thing(s) about tight pockets is it's harder to scratch and it really messes up your opponents game if they are not top-notch shotmakers.

Chris

 

[mjantti]

If you have an object ball near the cushion, I've noticed that pocketing takes much more energy and concentration on a tight table. Especially if you have a thin cut to make and you're trying to break up a cluster. If I'm playing on a supertight table, I tend to prefer straight-in shots and avoid thin cuts. Especially if the balls aren't polished. I don't like the idea that I should change my pattern play because the pockets are tight, but I find myself doing that. For instance, if the object ball is near the cushion, I tend to want better (less angle) position for it before I go for it. Also, I cut down the number of combos on a tight table...

And yes, I can play decent straight pool... a month ago I ran my record 85, which had hardly any difficult balls and almost all the work was done in the rack area. Just like straight pool should be played. I also think running 70 metodically and the "right way" is much more rewarding than running 80 with super difficult shots and getting many good rolls and dead combos.

 

[CaptainJR]

Dead Aim
I haven't played straight pool in 20 years. The pool hall in my town closed and I ended up in the bars playing 8 ball. I use to love straight pool. I was always so pleased with myself when I got perfect position for that for a nice firm break. I don't remember if I was playing on a tight or loose pockets, but I do remember playing to one side of a pocket or the other a lot. You and others here are talking about the size of the pockets. I would think this would be the big difference between playing on a loose or tight table. I think most of us here can make a ball when playing for the middle of the pocket. Using just part of the pocket to make sure you get where you need to be, that would be where the size of the pockets make a big difference. Even in 8 ball, unless I need to synch one (or a real tough shot), I still most of the time am playing for a particular part of the pocket.

I still like 8 ball better than 9 ball because I think it is more like straight pool.

JR

On second thought, maybe I was and am using the sides of the pockets because I'm didn't get good enough position on the current shot. LOL

 

[CaptainJR]

you can see two pool players at tables side by side an immediately see which one is the REAL pool player.

Joe

Oh no! I disagree with that completely. I'm not saying that good conduct and good demeanor should be used. I'm civilized. I am saying that presuming someone that has bad conduct and demeanor and dress is a poor player, has cost me money.

 

[dmgwalsh]

I've known Jimmy a long time but never even considered taking lessons from him, then a couple of us were talking and the subject came up of decent pool players around here and how they would benefit from taking lessons from Jimmy; and I said "geez, these guys are right". So about a year ago I called Jimmy and asked him if he wouldn't mind giving me lessons, and as they say; the rest is history. I taught I had GREAT basics, I've run a century before; Jimmy looked at me and told me I was a MESS, he told me to get in my stance and when I was set he gave me a little push and I nearly fell over; he said, "you're off balance, you don't even look like a pool player; I don't see how you make any shots at all".

Joe

It must be great getting lessons from the King.

Can you give some of us aspiring straight pool players any tips on how to practice in order to get better at straight. I've watched Rempes and sigels videos and a lot of matches. I've done that not touch the rail 15 ball exercise of Rempes some. In a real match though, the balls won't be spread as much. I've thrown out 5 or 6 balls near the rack and attempted to get a break shot. I've practiced long cuts from behind the rack area that come up a lot after a few safes. I've tried to think a few shots ahead and know where I'm going with te cue. What other things could you suggest?

Thanks. Dennis

 

[dmgwalsh]

Hi Dennis,

Well, since you’ve watched both Jimmy’s and Mike’s videos you seen a lot of what 14.1 is all about; these two are certainly the upper level of classic 14.1 play is existence today, the other one would be Mizerak.

Also, Jimmy’s practice routine is mainly to recognize patterns and really has little to do with running balls, but does have some position technique.

Throwing out 5 or 6 balls is not a bad idea, but I have a better one. If you have both of Jimmy’s videos, go to the ends of the racks when he has this number of balls left and set them up accordingly; do the same with Mike’s video. Then attempt to do what they do, this is GREAT practice; you can begin to learn how they think.

Okay, DON’T get to far ahead of yourself; like Jimmy says, “you can’t always play perfect pool”.
He broke me of doing this, I would think ahead and this would be etching in my brain and I would try anything to complete what I had planned; you CAN’T DO THAT. Things change, if you get out of line you might have to shoot a different shot; DON’T have tunnel vision, ALWAYS be willing to change your approach to the rack.

VERY IMPORTANT, you have to learn which shot to shoot; shooting the proper shot at the proper time in 14.1 is the key to high runs. Sometimes you'll have to shoot a little bit harder shot to get a better table layout, like Jimmy says; "to run balls you have to make some hard shots". I’ll show the table of what I had the other day when we were shooting 14.1, let me know what shot you would shoot next; this is the third rack of my run, I just broke the balls from the rear of the pack. PLEASE, don’t anybody answer until Dennis responds; if Dennis doesn't answer in a resonable amount of time I will take some suggestions on what to do.

Joe

I think I'd go for the seven.

 

[dmgwalsh]

Hi Dennis,

I'm sorry, I didn't make myself clear; what about after the 7?

What is your next two or three shots?

By the way, the 7 is correct

Joe

Joe-

Well, I guess I'd be trying to clear off the upper part of table, 6 next, maybe a little draw or follow and get shape on the 10, 12, 4, 3, 8,14, ...

Dennis

 

[dmgwalsh]

Hi Dennis,

That is what 99 percent of 14.1 players would do.

Here’s what I did, once you see this you’ll see how simply it was once I got rid of my trouble ball – the 8.

I shot the 7 in the corner, bounced of the rail for the 8 straight in.

Watch this, this is CRITICLE; it’s STOP STOP STOP until I shot the 3 ball.

8 in the corner, STOP.

11 in the corner, STOP. This ball is too low for a break shot, it’s in the way.

5 in the side, STOP.

1 in the corner, STOP.

4 in the corner, STOP

14 in the corner, STOP

3 in the corner, STUN up for the 12.

12 in the corner, DRAW back for the 10 with angle to get on 6

6 in the corner, two rails into the angle for the 15.

Here’s where I lost focus, all the while I’m talking to Jimmy and I didn’t hit the 6 firm enough and ended up where the 10 ball is now with a difficult shot on the 15. I jawed the 15 in the pocket while getting good on the 13 for a break. Now that some time has passed, I was stroking great and had good speed control; I should have "simply" drawed off the six back down table for the fifteen. NO, I'll stay with my original shot; I had good speed control but my mind was occupied talking to Jimmy. That draw shot had too many things that could have gone wrong, I DO NOT want to end up on the WRONG side of the 15 ball.

Jimmy looked at me and said, “you want to continue?, anywhere else that ball would have gone in”; I said, “no”. Like Billy Incardona says, “I wanted the full treatment”; because Jimmy wanted to shoot one pocket. Boy, am I glad I did; he taught me more about one pocket in two games than I learned in countless hours of watching it played; he said one pocket and chess are the only two games he likes to play for fun. Although he won two world one pocket titles he said, “the people I played were better one pocket players than I was but my EXECUTION was better”.

Joe

Joe- very nice demonstration. When you started on the 8, did you know how you were going to run the entire rack? Or did you just notice that you could clear out a lot of the lower balls without too much trouble, and a s you went a long you devised the rest of your strategy. You obviously were aware of the two balls uptable. Did you know when you would get them specifically. i'm trying to figure out whether it was general principles that motivated you to begin your run when you did.

 

[dmgwalsh]

Hi Dennis,

No, my first intention was to do what you were going to do; clear the trouble balls up table first.

When I got to my final stroke Jimmy (like he ALWAYS does) asked me what I was going to do, naturally this broke my focus so I stopped, looked around and proceeded with your scenario. Jimmy said, “what’s your trouble ball?”, I looked around and said the 8. Jimmy said, “so?’, I said, “I’m going to shot the 8 after the 7.

It wasn’t until then that everything clicked, I went over to the side pocket and looked where I would be if I STOPPED the cue after the 8, it was on the 11; that’s when I saw the WHOLE pattern, it just jumped out at me.

In a sense, what I did is take care of the balls up table but instead of making it difficult by doing it first I cleared all but three of the balls away with STOP shots and then proceeded up table; I just lost focus on the 6 ball. It would have been nice if the cue floated over from the 10 and left a straight in shot on the 6, but like Jimmy says, “you can’t always play perfect pool’.

Joe

sounds cool. If JR says its a trouble ball and take it off now, who am I to argue. although, it looked ok to shoot it after the 12,4,3. I'll look for trouble balls.

So you think I ought to look at some Rempe runs 100 racks last 5 or 6 balls and try to see what I would do?

 

[dmgwalsh]

Hi Dennis,

Sure it looked okay to shoot, IF you got on it; it only goes in one pocket; forget about shooting the 8 in the side it's a MISSABLE shot. How were you going to handle the rest of the balls? I started out with ALL stop shots, that's what you're looking for; the least movement of the cue ball.

Yes, take a look at the end of every rack on both Jimmy's and Mike's tapes; get a piece of paper or print out some tables and just note where the last 5 balls are and try to run them out like they did. This will show you how the mind of a great 14.1 player thinks, you'll see what they used for a "key ball to the key ball", the "key ball", the "break ball".

Also, take a look at how they handle the ENTIRE rack; before they shoot ask yourself what you would shoot and see what they do, try and figure out WHY they did it; they DIDN'T just shoot that ball because it was there, they shot it for a REASON!!!

Joe

joe- thanks for the guidance. time to go back to the classroom for me. Dennis

 

[Williebetmore]

Yes, take a look at the end of every rack on both Jimmy's and Mike's tapes; get a piece of paper or print out some tables and just note where the last 5 balls are and try to run them out like they did
Joe

DeadAim,
I love the way you think. As I improve (I practice 2 or more hours a day), I began to notice that I was picking apart the racks better and better, but I would FREQUENTLY foul up on the last few balls (after all the problems were solved). It was killing me that I could break all the clusters (what I thought before was the hard part), and fail to get proper position at the end of the rack (what I thought was the easiest part). In response to this problem, Mark Wilson recommended that I set out a good break ball, key ball, and key ball to key ball; then run them properly. Once 3 balls were going easily, add another random ball. I was SHOCKED by how much trouble I was/am having with this drill with just 4 or 5 balls on the table. It sounds easy, but when you actually do it you find it is very easy to get out of line (the more stop shots the better). It gives you a great appreciation for the true straight pool players who make this "endgame" look easy. I am definitely going to go back to the Accu-Stats straight pool tapes (I have LOTS of them), and make some diagrams of the end-rack positions - if I ever solve this part of the game, I'm going to run some balls (one hundred here I come - er, maybe fifty).

P.S. - Thanks to all the contributors to this thread, it has really helped. I think I may not have had the proper respect for the tight tables. If I get too discouraged, I'll just have to visit my friend whose table has the washtub pockets - it's good for the ego.

 

[Rod]

In this example the 7 to 8 is definately the right shot. I'd think anyone who runs numbers would see that right away. Your first thought in 14-1 is what key balls need to be removed to open up the shooting area. Also getting rid of the 5 pretty quick is the other.

If that rack was such the one was straight in though, I'd take that, then the 15 to the 8. I'd save the 7 as a key ball because I like whitey already being on that side of the table. It could still be done anyway with this set up but it's not taking natural angles.

That shot on the 6 two rails is a little sketchy because it can leave a "funny" angle to the 15. Your comming into the angle, if your to far away and or off angle a bit it's testy to leave a good break shot considering where the 13 is located.

There is more than one way to skin a cat but do it with minimal c/b movement plus all your other fine suggestions Joe.

Rod

 

[drivermaker]

All I gotta say is this was one hell of a great thread. Deadaim, you're really an helpful and informative guy that goes the extra mile. Keep telling those Jim Rempe stories, he's always been one of my favorites.

 

[dmgwalsh]

All I gotta say is this was one hell of a great thread. Deadaim, you're really an helpful and informative guy that goes the extra mile. Keep telling those Jim Rempe stories, he's always been one of my favorites.

I have to second that opinion. I feel like a kid in a candy store reading about your lessons and how JR says to play things and how you say to play things. Keep it coming, especially in straight pool, the only game I like to play any more. Dennis

 

[sjm]

...I just try to explain what I want to say the way Jim explaines and shows it to me. Whenever he shows me something he tells me a little story involved with it to kind of get the point across, usually they are "road stories" from the 60's, and early 70's...

Deadaim, Jimmy's really a quality guy. Some twenty five years ago, during the World 14.1 Championships, Jimmy, who was then sponsored by Adams cues, was showing some of his Adams cues to me and a few others. I liked what I saw, but didn't bite. Jimmy told me he had some more cues in his hotel room and that he'd be happy to take me there and show them to me, and that's just what he did. In the end, he sold me an Adams cue that gave me nearly twenty good years of use, though it was ultimately stolen. I've always thought that Jimmy showed a lot of character by taking me up to his room. Though he had seen me before, and knew I was friendly with some of the top pros back then, Jimmy didn't know me. Still, he trusted me, and I've always been glad that I made it worthwhile for him by buying a cue. In short, you are lucky to keep company with King James.