Mika/Shane...the rack?

I don't see anything wrong with pattern racking.

Slug racking, leaving spaces intentionally, when racking for another player is cheating but putting the balls in an order that you believe will benefit in an effort to run out is not cheating.


As long as you are giving your opponent a fair,tight rack,racking them in an order that makes it harder for him to run out just MAKES SENSE.

See, this is exactly what surprises me. There is the apparent attitude by more than a few that intentionally breaking a rule to gain an advantage is "not cheating" or that "I don't see anything wrong with it". In my view this is an indefensible position since this is basically the definition of cheating.

To be clear, I'm not talking about special situations where you are matching up and agree to waive certain aspects of the rules, or if you are giving weight, such as the 7 ball, but with the proviso that it be racked directly behind the one. Two guys matching up can agree to whatever they want to agree to. But pattern racking or rigging the rack is a violation of the rules so if you intend to do this your opponent should have the opportunity to agree to it beforehand.

I'm also not sure I understand the comment "...Slug racking, leaving spaces intentionally, when racking for another player is cheating..." Am I to infer from this that rigging the rack is OK when you are racking your own? That's what it sounds like.
 
Mosconi -knew where all the balls would go-on the break

Are they calling that pattern racking -I don't think so. The brake is a huge advantage, just look at the recent, Tar Match Up with Shane and Scott. I think the break made all the difference. There's hard and soft breaks. Most people don't realize, with the Sardo rack (the women broke with the (9 ball on the spot not the 1-ball) since 07. I loved the Sardo rack for 8 ball. What happened to the Spitball rack! little spit on the forward edge of the 1 ball. I think all the Pro's pattern racked in the IPT. Practice practice practice the break! I watched Mike Dechaine and Chris Bartram call balls on the brake, balls skidded before break in of the cloth. before John Schmidt's Tar challenge. best 10- ball breaking advice watch the tape- ask Jcin he bet plenty of soda's and burgers. They all copied Shanes cue ball position on the 10-ball break-it works for 8 ball as well. mark
 
I don't play/attend many large tournaments. I have never been to a tournament where the "rack your own" format was in use. I have always thought that the format was so that there would be less complaining about racks so as to quicken the pace of the matches. If an opposing player complains about the way his opponent racks for himself, is the racking player by rule obligated to do what the opposing player asks him/her to do? Do they cater to the complainer as a "professional courtesy"? Can a referee/tournament director be brought in on this? As long as the ball that is supposed to be on the spot IS on the spot, isn't that a legal rack regardless if one or more of the balls in the rack are a little loose? I am not trying to be a smart-a$$, I am just uneducated on this subject. Someone please educate me!!!

Maniac

this is a great question, i would personally love to see a tournament where the guy in the chair will be penalized if he even gets out of his chair to look at the rack. this would speed up the game and when considering all things, would be fair too as both players would have equal advantage.
 
Are they calling that pattern racking -I don't think so. The brake is a huge advantage, just look at the recent, Tar Match Up with Shane and Scott. I think the break made all the difference. There's hard and soft breaks. Most people don't realize, with the Sardo rack (the women broke with the (9 ball on the spot not the 1-ball) since 07. I loved the Sardo rack for 8 ball. What happened to the Spitball rack! little spit on the forward edge of the 1 ball. I think all the Pro's pattern racked in the IPT. Practice practice practice the break! I watched Mike Dechaine and Chris Bartram call balls on the brake, balls skidded before break in of the cloth. before John Schmidt's Tar challenge. best 10- ball breaking advice watch the tape- ask Jcin he bet plenty of soda's and burgers. They all copied Shanes cue ball position on the 10-ball break-it works for 8 ball as well. mark

i must state, there is a big misconception on this. overall, i guess the breaker wins about 50% of the games. i realize on a certain table there may be a huge advantage- but the break being a huge advantage isnt really a true statement believe it or not.
 
thoughts on breaking

i must state, there is a big misconception on this. overall, i guess the breaker wins about 50% of the games. i realize on a certain table there may be a huge advantage- but the break being a huge advantage isnt really a true statement believe it or not.
Why then are the brake formats -alternate,not winner breaks. I have heard others say (on the hill) let the other brake- but to me that gives up some control of the table and I'd rather remain in a shooting Pos-than passing to defence- meaning I'd rather go down shooting not sitting. curious mark
 
Pattern Racking

Pattern racking is cheating plain and simple. The basic rules of 9 Ball are to rack the 7 remaining balls ramdomly. The reason people pattern rack is to gain an advantage in the game. If it wasn't an advantage they wouldn't do it. Placing the same ball in the same spot so THAT BALL CAN BE MADE IN THE SAME POCKET EVERTIME is also cheating.
 
Pattern racking is cheating plain and simple. The basic rules of 9 Ball are to rack the 7 remaining balls ramdomly. The reason people pattern rack is to gain an advantage in the game. If it wasn't an advantage they wouldn't do it. Placing the same ball in the same spot so THAT BALL CAN BE MADE IN THE SAME POCKET EVERTIME is also cheating.

i think we have been into this before, but the problem is there is simply no way to enforce pattern racking, so therefore it should not be illegal.

what you have to realize is pattern racking usually involves low balls and high balls, in other words the 1-5 you want in these positions to they hopefully go uptable, 6-10 in these positions so they stay downtable. now, if a guy racks the 2 ball where it will go uptable, then next rack he puts the three ball where he put the 2 ball last time, same difference pretty much, but nobody can accuse him of pattern racking. you see, you'd have to have some objective percentage of balls going into the same spots the over and over. if a player goes over this percentage, then he is pattern racking. since we could never do that, we have to realize that a clever pattern racker will get away with it and we need to forget it altogether.

see, put another way, the problem is you may have a guy penalized for pattern racking, but a player on another table is actually pattern racking even worse, but goes undetected. if you think about it more and more i think youll come to the conclusion that we cant look at this as cheating, because nothing is ever truly 100% random, that is an impossible goal.
 
i think we have been into this before, but the problem is there is simply no way to enforce pattern racking, so therefore it should not be illegal.

what you have to realize is pattern racking usually involves low balls and high balls, in other words the 1-5 you want in these positions to they hopefully go uptable, 6-10 in these positions so they stay downtable. now, if a guy racks the 2 ball where it will go uptable, then next rack he puts the three ball where he put the 2 ball last time, same difference pretty much, but nobody can accuse him of pattern racking. you see, you'd have to have some objective percentage of balls going into the same spots the over and over. if a player goes over this percentage, then he is pattern racking. since we could never do that, we have to realize that a clever pattern racker will get away with it and we need to forget it altogether.

see, put another way, the problem is you may have a guy penalized for pattern racking, but a player on another table is actually pattern racking even worse, but goes undetected. if you think about it more and more i think youll come to the conclusion that we cant look at this as cheating, because nothing is ever truly 100% random, that is an impossible goal.



I've thought about it plenty. I'm not sure I get the "nothing is ever truly 100% random" thing, but if you think about it it really is simple. The rules state the balls should be racked randomly. Knowingly breaking this rule to gain an unfair advantage is cheating. Knowingly breaking a rule to gain an unfair advantage is the definition of cheating, is it not?

I can only agree that if they change the rule to make it legal, then it would no longer be cheating.

I'm just surprised that it is condoned at the professional level. I don't mean that it isn't called and penalties levied by TD's because I realize that it can be extremely difficult to prove. I'm surprised and frankly a little disappointed that it is condoned by the players themselves, because proven or not they all know who is doing it.

I think this is short-sighted. If professional pool had the public perception that it was a sport played by men and women of honor and that the game instilled positive values, it might help attract a larger following and perhaps even in time some serious money to professional pool.

Look at golf. Sure guys sandbag and cheat at the game on the local muni's and country clubs, but at the professional level it just doesn't happen. If a player did cheat he would become an instant pariah among his peers.

I was watching a tournament a few weeks back with Strickland playing (I wish I could remember the event or who his opponent was). Earl clearly fouls on the 5 ball while trying to shoot the cue ball. Everyone saw it (the opponent, the crowd, the announcers, and the TV audience who were treated to slo-mo replays showing the foul). Everyone saw it - except the ref, who was out of position. Well, the ref goes to call it based on everyone's reaction and Earl protested saying something to the effect of "You were standing behind me, you didn't actually see it. And if you didn't actually see it with your own eyes you can't call it". Long story short, the ref didn't call it and Earl kept shooting. Justice was served though as he ultimately lost the game.

But I had to ask myself, WTF is that? That kind of behavior saddens me. I mean come on, this is how professionals in our sport behave? How many times have you been playing with a buddy and he heads off to the bar or bathroom. If you miss/foul while he is gone, do you keep shooting and when he gets back pretend you never missed? Or do you sit down and wait for him to get back and take his turn?

In professional golf, guys call penalties on themselves all the time when no one else saw it. They will also point out penalties they do see an opponent might unknowingly make A) So that the field is protected and B) To protect the offending player from getting DQ'd for signing an incorrect scorecard.

There is legal and there is illegal. There is also right and wrong.
 
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If a pool player breaks the rules and he is the only one who knows about it, is it still cheating?

Um, yes.

But don't get me wrong... the rule against pattern racking should be changed, IMO. The rules should state that in the absence of some actual means of determining a random order, the racker is allowed to rack the remaining balls in whatever order he chooses.

So if a tournament organizer feels that his tournament would be soooo much better with random racks, then he can simply provide a means of randomizing the rack that is not so easily vulnerable to cheating. Yes, it would require some up-front work by someone, but if that is too much effort, then no problem; just allow pattern racking.

It's just like the money ball on the break. If it is too expensive to do it right and hire a neutral racker, then just do the next best thing and allow the players to rack their own balls, but do not count the 9 or 10 as a win on the break.

On second thought, naw, I guess it's better to just have people cheating each other and fighting over the rack. :rolleyes:
 
i think we have been into this before, but the problem is there is simply no way to enforce pattern racking, so therefore it should not be illegal.

what you have to realize is pattern racking usually involves low balls and high balls, in other words the 1-5 you want in these positions to they hopefully go uptable, 6-10 in these positions so they stay downtable. now, if a guy racks the 2 ball where it will go uptable, then next rack he puts the three ball where he put the 2 ball last time, same difference pretty much, but nobody can accuse him of pattern racking. you see, you'd have to have some objective percentage of balls going into the same spots the over and over. if a player goes over this percentage, then he is pattern racking. since we could never do that, we have to realize that a clever pattern racker will get away with it and we need to forget it altogether.

see, put another way, the problem is you may have a guy penalized for pattern racking, but a player on another table is actually pattern racking even worse, but goes undetected. if you think about it more and more i think youll come to the conclusion that we cant look at this as cheating, because nothing is ever truly 100% random, that is an impossible goal.

I play mostly on a barbox. How about grabbing the balls out of the box and just put them in the rack and then place the 1 and 9 in the correct position. Since you are grabbing the balls ramdomly out of the box you can't pattern rack.
 
Pattern racking is cheating plain and simple. The basic rules of 9 Ball are to rack the 7 remaining balls ramdomly. The reason people pattern rack is to gain an advantage in the game. If it wasn't an advantage they wouldn't do it. Placing the same ball in the same spot so THAT BALL CAN BE MADE IN THE SAME POCKET EVERTIME is also cheating.

It is? So if I'm giving you the wild 7-8 I should just put these on the wings?
 
It is? So if I'm giving you the wild 7-8 I should just put these on the wings?

Yes, it is. Geez, you guys, the rules are not complicated in regard to pattern racking and are not subject to interpretation. It's against the rules. I don't get that you guys don't get it. If I'm shooting and my cue ball is headed for the corner pocket, am I allowed to block it to avoid the scratch and get to keep my inning alive? Why not? This idea that somehow pattern racking is OK is that silly.

As far as giving weight goes, heck, when two guys match up you can play any way that is agreed upon by the two parties. Personally, if I'm giving up the 7 and 8 I will up front require they be racked behind the one ball, but that's just me. In my old hall in any match between regulars, this was the understood way that handicapped balls were racked. Make any rules you want so long as both parties agree to it. But we are discussing pattern racking as it pertains to the rules being applied such as a tournament or other event or match played by World Standardized Rules.

If you don't like or disagree with the rule, well that's a different story. And if the rule is changed to allow pattern racking, then that's fine too. But as long as it is illegal, it is cheating to pattern rack.

Cuebacca said it perfectly in his last post. He feels the rule should be changed but understands that as it stands pattern racking is cheating:

If a pool player breaks the rules and he is the only one who knows about it, is it still cheating?

Um, yes.

But don't get me wrong... the rule against pattern racking should be changed, IMO. The rules should state that in the absence of some actual means of determining a random order, the racker is allowed to rack the remaining balls in whatever order he chooses.
 
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I watched the match and I couldn't understand why somebody didn't just get a referee to rack.
 
Simple Random Racking Method

there is simply no way to enforce [random] racking

Sure there is. The basic principle (as Bob Olson said) is that the balls have to be placed in the rack "blind" and then the 1 and the money ball swapped with the balls that are in their proper places.

You can make the initial placement "blind" in various ways. Bob Olson suggested one for tables with ball returns. Another way for drop pocket tables is for the non-racking player to put all the balls in the two foot pockets and mix them up, then have the racking player take them out one at a time without looking (keeping his head centered in the rack area) and place them in the rack in a prescribed order (say, top to bottom, left to right).

There may be better ways - I'd like to hear some ideas. It should be done as simply and quickly as possible, preferably without extra equipment like a "hat" to take the balls out of.

pj
chgo
 
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Pattern racking is cheating plain and simple. The basic rules of 9 Ball are to rack the 7 remaining balls ramdomly. The reason people pattern rack is to gain an advantage in the game. If it wasn't an advantage they wouldn't do it. Placing the same ball in the same spot so THAT BALL CAN BE MADE IN THE SAME POCKET EVERTIME is also cheating.

After 40 years, that is gonna be a tough habit to break! But again in 40 years not one person has ever said a word!
 
It is? So if I'm giving you the wild 7-8 I should just put these on the wings?

We are talking about racking in tournaments where no weight is given. When you are gambling and getting weight both players will agree where the weighted ball(s) are racked prior to playing.

If two people are gambling and they both agree to rack anyway they like then pattern racking is fine since nobody is breaking the rules (as modified).
 
9-ball is so bad now that when a top pro makes a ball on the break and doesn't have a shot on the next lowest ball they stand there and act like they got a bad roll. Pattern racking has got so bad that they expect a shot after the break. Just retire 9-ball and be done with it. It's a joke. Johnnyt
 
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