OK. all of you pool & billiard trivia experts. Why do we refer to tip size, as millimeters, instead of inches? Why isn't it .512 instead of 13mm?...JER
Millimeters / Inches ..why
- Thread starter BLACKHEARTCUES
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BLACKHEARTCUES said:
IMHO because pool was becoming so strong in Europe around the 1820-1840 period, the fact the tip is credited as being invented in Europe, and the metric system was being reinstated around that time period. So naturally you got your tips in mm's.
Joe
Millimeters/inches
BUT, they have always measured milage, on the roads in metric units,yet we converted to MILES. We say the cue is 58 inches long, so why isn't the TIP .512?????????...JER
BUT, they have always measured milage, on the roads in metric units,yet we converted to MILES. We say the cue is 58 inches long, so why isn't the TIP .512?????????...JER
Hehehehe
I think it's so we don't have to measure so precisely, plus it makes conversations go a lot faster. It's a lot easier to say "thirteen millimeters" than it is to say "five hundred and twelve thousandths of an inch" And we can round to the nearest quarter millimeter, you would have to measure the shaft every time you used 2000 grit sandpaper and say "my shaft is five hundred and ten thousandths of an inch." Instead of rounding it up to 13 millimeters. Just a humorous take.
I think it's so we don't have to measure so precisely, plus it makes conversations go a lot faster. It's a lot easier to say "thirteen millimeters" than it is to say "five hundred and twelve thousandths of an inch" And we can round to the nearest quarter millimeter, you would have to measure the shaft every time you used 2000 grit sandpaper and say "my shaft is five hundred and ten thousandths of an inch." Instead of rounding it up to 13 millimeters. Just a humorous take.
I think it was that tips were all imported and they probably were made in mm increments. Cues were probably all made to closely equivalent sizes, so that the tips could be centered without trimming. Of course this is speculation and may be completly wrongclassiccues said:
Tracy
It's easier to visualize and quantize mm size for tips and inches for cue lengths. Having tips in inches would result in decimal digits. Cue length too if you have 58" in meters. As for the joint measurement at 0.850", I'm better off at that than at 21.6mm coz I visualize 0.850" easily coz it's closer to 1.0". Funny thing is, I measure my buttcaps in mm. 
mm/INCHES
[I have players come to me all of the time, who have no idea what measurements are in millimeters.. For example, they'll say 'Put a medium tip on ,& turn the shaft down to 9mm" As soon as I show them what 9mm is, they back track & we end up with something a little smaller than they have. Or they'll ask for "THE NEXT SIZE SMALLER". That's a good one, that I hear a lot. I always have to quiz them about WHY they want the shaft smaller. Do they have small hands & therefore want something smaller, so that it more easilly slids through their hands? Some only want a smaller tip size, because they think they will get "MORE ENGLISH"(when questioned, they almost always mean "more draw"). Either way, millimeters is a foreign language to them. On the other hand, all of us have been taught the decimal system...JER
[I have players come to me all of the time, who have no idea what measurements are in millimeters.. For example, they'll say 'Put a medium tip on ,& turn the shaft down to 9mm" As soon as I show them what 9mm is, they back track & we end up with something a little smaller than they have. Or they'll ask for "THE NEXT SIZE SMALLER". That's a good one, that I hear a lot. I always have to quiz them about WHY they want the shaft smaller. Do they have small hands & therefore want something smaller, so that it more easilly slids through their hands? Some only want a smaller tip size, because they think they will get "MORE ENGLISH"(when questioned, they almost always mean "more draw"). Either way, millimeters is a foreign language to them. On the other hand, all of us have been taught the decimal system...JER
Has anyone asked you for 45 or .357 or .38 special tip Jer? LOL
Millimeters/inches
No,but I do load my own for those 3 calibers...JER
No,but I do load my own for those 3 calibers...JER
> Can you load the .38 SPL to a +P rating? When people come to me and ask me to turn a 13mm (or .512 lol) down to 12 or 11mm,I use the metric/inch conversion on my micrometer or calipers and show them how much a millimeter really is,and explain what WILL happen if I take that much off a shaft,even sanding it,with the humid conditions that are SO common here in Tennessee,and they almost always change their minds. It also seems that when I get a request like this,it's almost always raining too,further compounding the problems that can occur taking an already playable shaft and taking roughly .050 off it,after finish sanding and sealing.Tommy D.
Mm/inches
No +Ps, I want my guns to stay together, while I'm holding them. As for smaller shaft size, I have a LARGE number of people in this area, that play with a smaller shaft size ,(all of the way down to 9 1/2mm). I give them all kinds of reasons why they should leave them alone, but in the end they want them ground down. I give up...JERTommy-D said:
Hi all,
This is an interesting question I've been wondering myself but was kind of chicken to ask. I was thinking that perhaps it started out as a marketing ploy, some cuemaker touting their new line-up with a 12.5mm shaft or something along those lines. I'm wondering if some of the more "experienced" readers of this forum could remember when they first heard about shafts measured in millimeters. I can't imagine that back in the good old days that anything was measured in metric units. I find the whole number theory plausible as well, people get confused with decimals.
How about our current cuemakers? When you're building a cue, how do you take all of your measurements?
Thanks!
This is an interesting question I've been wondering myself but was kind of chicken to ask. I was thinking that perhaps it started out as a marketing ploy, some cuemaker touting their new line-up with a 12.5mm shaft or something along those lines. I'm wondering if some of the more "experienced" readers of this forum could remember when they first heard about shafts measured in millimeters. I can't imagine that back in the good old days that anything was measured in metric units. I find the whole number theory plausible as well, people get confused with decimals.
How about our current cuemakers? When you're building a cue, how do you take all of your measurements?
Thanks!
BLACKHEARTCUES said:
Wow 9 1/2 mm, that makes me feel alittle better about the retapers We are getting. Besides the sneaky project, the smallest I am seeing is 12. I am with you guys, does not seem worth doing for normal game play, but guess It helps others with their game. Back when I used snooker sized shafts like that, We just bought a good snooker shaft with a long straight taper, and shot with It. These days I have no use for them in my game. Yes, they do seem to put more on the cueball, and will draw better if your strokes lagging with a larger diameter, but to me they increase the chances of a shot going bad somewhere down the line. The opposite of what I want these days, as nowdays, It's more about increasing my odds finishing racks then showboating. I don't know If it's mental or what, but they do seem to draw better, and put alot more action on the ball. Our snooker shafts had long straight tapers, so the taper could have actually felt smoother therefore improving stroke for the draw. I imagine that played into It quite a bit.
You guys are also correct about them not really even knowing what they want, and It can be hard to get that out of them without feeling like you are coaching them into the answer, and reason they want It done. Can leave you somewhat confused as to what to set them up with. Just got a retaper lastnight, and was probably one of the better reasons I have heard, the girl had one with a euro taper on it, and she wanted more of a straight pro taper like on her other cue, but smaller, The only thing is she did not know what size. She decided on a 12 1/2, but has me wondering if I should not keep it a little on the larger side of that at first, let her try It, then decide if she really wants the 12 1/2. I don't want to put anything to drastic in her hands. Want to make sure It is going to be of use.
Humidity is also a problem here as well, so don't really like to take on anything too extreme. We keep our wood in a room where the humidity does not get to It, but other peoples shafts are in it everyday, and on top of It, some cue cases don't help with those issues. Sometimes they can make the problem worse it seems. If It were up to me, I would just say leave It alone, and buy another shaft with the size and taper they want, but I am here to serve, so if they must, I must. Those are'nt as bad as the ones that want work done on a $10 cue, Costs more to put a tip on then what the cue costs. Unless It's a top knotch shooter looking to have a sleeper built from It, there is no way It's going to be worth It to them to do any weight or balance ajustments. I hate trying to explain to someone that that It might not even be worth the cost to them. I can do the work, but just trying to give them the best advice I can, I am turning money down when I do this. You try to explain in the most polite way you can, without down playing their cue, most understand, and I believe are genuinely apprietiative that I am that honest with them, instead of just taking their money, that way they can spend It on something a little nicer, setup the way they want it from the get go. Some I think still take it the wrong way, as if I did not want to do It because It was not worth My while. This is not the case at all, so sometimes I guess I give up too. I must say, they are all wonderfull people though, and I am thankfull, I have gotton the chance to know them over the years, and meeting new ones everyday. Just gets confusing when you are trying to look out for everyones best interest at the same time. Trying to explain things can be difficult at times There really are people doing this that are not in it for the money. If We were in It for the money, We would probably have a huge shop by now, instead of the very small space, without out room to setup what equipment We do have, not to mention what all We need and want to get. Just keeping up with a fresh supply of materials is a feat in It'self, seems like there are gone as soon as you get them, and then have to reorder. If We were making a killing at it, We would be able to keep a larger supply around also. All you can do, Is do your best to assist everyone the best posible way you know how. G
mm/inches
After showing the customer what the smaller shaft will look like & explaining that the ferrule will be thinner & that the shaft may warp.......I give them exactly what they want. And if they come back in 2 days & want it smaller, I charge them again. On payday they want to get paid for their work & so do I. Treat the customer like a customer & you'll make a little money. Treat them otherwise & they will take advantage of you & you'll be working for nothing...JER
After showing the customer what the smaller shaft will look like & explaining that the ferrule will be thinner & that the shaft may warp.......I give them exactly what they want. And if they come back in 2 days & want it smaller, I charge them again. On payday they want to get paid for their work & so do I. Treat the customer like a customer & you'll make a little money. Treat them otherwise & they will take advantage of you & you'll be working for nothing...JER
BLACKHEARTCUES said:
Yeah, Guess i can't fault ya there. The more I go on, the more I am starting to come to grips with It myself. All you can do is forewarn them of any complications, the rest has to be up to them at some point. the bad part of it is that It does not make the guy doing the job look to good, even though he may recomend against It. Also speaking of something for nothing, We were basically doing total shaft restoration at one time for the price of the tip job alone, with tip included, have long since changed that, as It was not at all cost effective, so I Have to admit we do need to make enough to atleast purchase materials for the work to keep providing the service to them, and keep up the quality of the work, as well as the constant buying of tooling and such to do all that. Aside from that I would also like for it to atleast continue to provide some extra income to help with the passion, and be able to turn a few cues a year out of the deal if I can ever get the time with all the repair we are starting to get. Can't say there is anyway of doing "work for nothing" that I know of either, as I well know myself that even just to keep providing the service, there has to be a limit. I want to keep everyone satisfied and will do what ever's right to make anything up that was at my mis judgement, but how could you do that in the other case senerio, when you gave full warning. There are certain people that will be older and closer to you, some you may even not mind taking the loss for, but if you do It for one 2 or even more they will all expect It, so for that reason I agree. Do have to admit though, that If I even take the job on, I feel responsible either way, therefore I will probably always loose for going against my better judgement. Can help but set things straight with the customer either way, and just not good for bussiness. Maybe one day I will learn. I am selective when It comes to doing stuff like this with anything of too much value. Just don't like the idea of chopping someone elses work, that was more then likely done the way it should be with their stlye of build in the first place. not My thing, would advise they have the builder do the work on his make of cue. Also the best way to maintain the cues value when possible.
I guess for me by doing a retaper at all, is kind of a favor for the most part. I try not to take too many on in the first place, but can be talked into It sometimes. depends on the person, and what they want to acomplish from It. G
,mm/inches
Somebody told me a long time ago, that you should make $20 an hour, on repair jobs. Certainly you can put a lot of tips on in an hour,but say you snap off a tenon doing a ferrule job. That is going to slow you up. The average can easily be $20 an hour. I can do a rewrap in 30 minutes. I get $30 for these. That makes up for the tenon job. BUT, if you throw in some job for nothing,you have just gone in the hole. My prices are cheap...,but I won't work for nothing & neither should anybody else. Be profesional about your work & it will reward you, with a decent income & respect from those you deal with...JER
Somebody told me a long time ago, that you should make $20 an hour, on repair jobs. Certainly you can put a lot of tips on in an hour,but say you snap off a tenon doing a ferrule job. That is going to slow you up. The average can easily be $20 an hour. I can do a rewrap in 30 minutes. I get $30 for these. That makes up for the tenon job. BUT, if you throw in some job for nothing,you have just gone in the hole. My prices are cheap...,but I won't work for nothing & neither should anybody else. Be profesional about your work & it will reward you, with a decent income & respect from those you deal with...JER
20 was the way I always heard It also, and you do make a good point, that is cheap. We are for the most part are setup like a service tech might be in any other trade. Pick just about any other trade that does service, and your looking at 50 minimum It seems like, and I'm sure It's alot more in other parts of the country. 20 should not be too much to expect at all, should be alot more when you take into account what all it takes to do quality work in the buss., not to mention we have to bring the work back here in most cases, and then deliver to one of the drop offs for them. I guess It works the same in other trades, you have some that are nightmares, and some that are cake jobs. hopefully they even out in the end. Atleast that is what I have seen from other life experiences. It is getting to the point where I need to take It more seriously as a buss., just hard to break old habits I guess.
Finally feeling confident in my wraps, so would be nice to start taking more of those on. I made me a little arm that holds those mini spools and clamps to my stool, or the bench, I can position it anyway I want to feed the linen (It's a simple little device, don't know if anyone has done that yet or not,sure someone has, but if not remember I said it first. Free Idea for personal use only LOL), works pretty well and I am able to do them pretty quickly also, usually alot less time, but at a maximum an hour including pressing, and even at that well worth It. The more I do, the quicker I should get also so that should help. I refinished my break cue, a while back and did a pressed irish on it, still holding up fine, like new, and feels really good and smooth. Like anyone I tend to be a perfectionist, and I still need to master the ends, so probably takes me alittle longer then most with more under their belt, but really starting to get the hang of It. the prep and pressing I have down to a real nice shiny finish. feels as good as it looks. I'll probably start buying linen by the large spools to cut on cost also.
Have several leathers. Think I am going to try out on one, or 2 of the cues in the works. Got to get the practice somehow. G
Finally feeling confident in my wraps, so would be nice to start taking more of those on. I made me a little arm that holds those mini spools and clamps to my stool, or the bench, I can position it anyway I want to feed the linen (It's a simple little device, don't know if anyone has done that yet or not,sure someone has, but if not remember I said it first. Free Idea for personal use only LOL), works pretty well and I am able to do them pretty quickly also, usually alot less time, but at a maximum an hour including pressing, and even at that well worth It. The more I do, the quicker I should get also so that should help. I refinished my break cue, a while back and did a pressed irish on it, still holding up fine, like new, and feels really good and smooth. Like anyone I tend to be a perfectionist, and I still need to master the ends, so probably takes me alittle longer then most with more under their belt, but really starting to get the hang of It. the prep and pressing I have down to a real nice shiny finish. feels as good as it looks. I'll probably start buying linen by the large spools to cut on cost also.
Have several leathers. Think I am going to try out on one, or 2 of the cues in the works. Got to get the practice somehow. G
I think $50 per hour is more inline with what we actually make per hour doing repairs if we are not on "Dog Jobs". Tips at $10. Can easily do 6 in an hour. Clean shafts at $10 same thing. But building cues is another story. Then it seems like the hourly wage cuts almost in half.
Chris
www.hightowercues.com
Chris
www.hightowercues.com
tip jobs are not bad for the most part, I can pump them out pretty quick now days too, so probably bring in quite a bit by the hour on average. We have had a few people switching over to us recently, and the ferrules have been pretty tore up. Once I straighten their ferrule out initially, the rest of the tip jobs on their shafts are a breeze. the dog jobs can put you on the spot though. And there is alot of other stuff that goes more into to the setup area, more use of material, higher cost of some material, contantly testing new materials to improve service, so on, so on. I don't think most people have a clue as to what all goes into offering even just the most basic cue repairs, but then again could just be trying to take to much on. A straight up repair guy would probably not even have such issues even in our small work area. Just got to take the good with the bad. Good thing is most of that is in the past now, and getting easier by the day. I guess on the cuebuilding side, I just need to finish the stand alone taper, and the space to set it up by It'self where It does not hose everything down with dust would be a big help also, then i would not have to worry about everything being tied up all the time, and could keep the stock turned when desired. Basically I think for us If We solve our space issue, and I improved My organization skills we would do alright, so Can't complain. I like to tinker on stuff too much so not very organized yet. The good thing is that quality work can keep them coming, and word of mouth spreads like a wildfire, thankfull for that, as it is the foundation of cuebuilding IMO. I don't think I will ever be ahead in the money on the builds, but will enjoy every minute of the few I may build a year. That's all I really wanted out of It anyway, and It's within reach now, so guess I'm good with that. The rest is just a bonus. long since been through My firewood stage, so hopefully only gets better from there. Can not really complain. Doing what I enjoy. G