"Mint" or "Like New" Condition. What does it mean?

It seems to me we have slightly different interpretations of this term but we're all pretty close.
I think I'll defer to the cue professionals' opinions, like cueaddicts, kickin'chicken, serdula, et al,
and whatever they can agree upon should become some type of standard for other Azers to employ.

Matt B.
 
I have always wanted to make a thread on this and I have mentioned many times before about sellers trying to pass used cues as new. I mentioned flippers trying to make a profit and got ridiculed for it.

There is nothing wrong with making a profit if you have a brand new-mint condition cue. The problem I have is the seller trying to capitalize from a used cue that has been played on a regular basis as new.

Collectible or not, if it is played on a daily basis then it is used and should be priced accordingly. Seller has the right to price it to whatever they feel but don't include the bad attitude towards potential buyers, like the cue is some holy grail.

Like other forums that I frequent, there should be a forum rule in regards to grading. We need some sort of grading system adopted by AZ and its members.

Essentially everything or a majority of cues on here are used. You drive a new car off the lot, it is used. You test hit a cue, it is used.
 
Cue sale descriptions

lenoxmjs said:
I also use the term mint or just like new a lot . If a shaft has Bluing and weak tips just say so . It's a lot easier to be honest upfront about all of a cues issues than to try and unwind a deal . It's better to underpromise and over deliver.
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This is great advice and I tend to go overboard with my descriptions. I'd much rather a buyer of a cue I'm selling tell me they can't find the problem I mentioned than to have an issue with someone who is upset because I left out the fact that the shaft had dings in it. Just be honest and describe your items in detail and your sales should go smoothly. I will always take a cue back minus the shipping if the buyer isn't happy and I've never had to take a cue back.
 
dom_poppa said:
I have always wanted to make a thread on this and I have mentioned many times before about sellers trying to pass used cues as new. I mentioned flippers trying to make a profit and got ridiculed for it.

There is nothing wrong with making a profit if you have a brand new-mint condition cue. The problem I have is the seller trying to capitalize from a used cue that has been played on a regular basis as new.

Collectible or not, if it is played on a daily basis then it is used and should be priced accordingly. Seller has the right to price it to whatever they feel but don't include the bad attitude towards potential buyers, like the cue is some holy grail.

Like other forums that I frequent, there should be a forum rule in regards to grading. We need some sort of grading system adopted by AZ and its members.

Essentially everything or a majority of cues on here are used. You drive a new car off the lot, it is used. You test hit a cue, it is used.
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iTrader: 0 / 0%
 
Grading is subjective, one guy sees "excellent" as one thing, a different guy sees it as quite another.

The point that we here at AZ often lose sight of, is both guys are right and both guys are wrong. All the "big fights" here at AZ are generally guys that see things one way trying to convince those that see it differently to change their minds. How's that working for us?

The deal with cue grading is be as accurate as you can as a seller, and to offer a satisfaction guarantee in case you buyer is a guy that sees it differently. When you sell something and encounter a buyer that doesn't agree with your assessment, take it back and find one that does. No right, no wrong, just two different people showing what makes us different.
 
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There's a lot of good info here, but it needs to be in the main forum. This is the wanted/for sale section. Kindly adhere to the forum rules.
 
Originally Posted by dom_poppa
I have always wanted to make a thread on this and I have mentioned many times before about sellers trying to pass used cues as new. I mentioned flippers trying to make a profit and got ridiculed for it.

There is nothing wrong with making a profit if you have a brand new-mint condition cue. The problem I have is the seller trying to capitalize from a used cue that has been played on a regular basis as new.

Collectible or not, if it is played on a daily basis then it is used and should be priced accordingly. Seller has the right to price it to whatever they feel but don't include the bad attitude towards potential buyers, like the cue is some holy grail.

Like other forums that I frequent, there should be a forum rule in regards to grading. We need some sort of grading system adopted by AZ and its members.

Essentially everything or a majority of cues on here are used. You drive a new car off the lot, it is used. You test hit a cue, it is used.

His iTrader: 0 / 0%


kvinbrwr said:
He never lets his complete lack of experience or knowledge get in the way of his being opinionated and vocal (and generally negative).
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It's always the ppl that have NO experience buying or selling on here that "know it all" and this guy is always very negative.

I apologize for posting in this forum,but sometimes,buyers/sellers need to see this type of thing.Again,sorry for posting here.
 
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Let's start with the term "mint condition". I think the simplest complete definition could be...

1) shows NO signs of use whatsoever; and
2) is in sound condition in every respect; and
3) tip should not come off the table when cue is rolled*

*Shaft (NOT BUTT STRAIGHTNESS) straightness should be a separate discussion ... don't want to go there.:rolleyes:

Whether it's new from the factory, fresh off a cue makers lathe, sitting in a closet for a decade or completely restored should not matter.
The fact that it has been test hit without chalk shouldn't matter as long as the other criteria have been met.

Imagine the next time someone says "mint condition" ... you know exactly what to expect. That would be kool!
 
neilhin said:
Let's start with the term "mint condition". I think the simplest complete definition could be...

1) shows NO signs of use whatsoever; and
2) is in sound condition in every respect; and
3) tip should not come off the table when cue is rolled*

*Shaft (NOT BUTT STRAIGHTNESS) straightness should be a separate discussion ... don't want to go there.:rolleyes:

Whether it's new from the factory, fresh off a cue makers lathe, sitting in a closet for a decade or completely restored should not matter.
The fact that it has been test hit without chalk shouldn't matter as long as the other criteria have been met.

Imagine the next time someone says "mint condition" ... you know exactly what to expect. That would be kool!
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Restored items are not mint. Mint is what an item is when it leaves the maker's hands the first time. You can't re-mint.
 
That is easy enough any novis.

lenoxmjs said:
So how would one tell if a new cue had been chalked played a rack or two and then the owner had the tips replaced. What wouldn't be mint about it? How could anyone tell the difference?
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Buy new from the builder. It is the only way to go. Get your money's worth.
If you can't do that bad news you are at someone's mercy or kindness or lack there of.
No exceptions.
This works best. Hand it to a Cue maker and ask them what it is. Watch their eyebrows as the look at someone else's work! It just might not be the new Cue you think it is under a competent builders loop.
Then buy them a steak for their trouble.
Nick :)
 
I previously posted that I'd go along with any definition of this term, or any terms for that matter, which are not already established standards for the billiard industry, such as cue level ratings and some examples are Level 2 cue has 0 points & 0 - 25 inlays; Level 4 cue has 4 - 10 points & 9 -25 inlays, Level 6 cue has 0 -12 points & 51 - 75 inlays and a Level 8 cue has 0 - 12 points and 126 or more inlays.

The level of intricacy grading of cue designs is absolutely essential for establishing cue values. The grading system works best with simple cue designs and becomes more difficult to determine values as the level of compexity increases, especially past Level 4. At this point, many different inlays and points may be used.

The Blue Book refers to "Mint" as 100% condition, virtually brand new condition, straight butt and shafts. no nicks, dings, or scratches, possibly never chalked."

98% "Almost no observable wear, perhaps extremely light finish scratching, near 100% except for chalk on tip, ferrules and shaft. It is slightly lower than mint (in other words it's been played).
The Blue Book doesn't refer to "like new" and so I'm thinking the 98% description seems appropriate to use for that category, "Like New".

95% condition is described as very light observable wear, has seen a fair amount of use, perhaps light finish scratching, close to mint.

90% is described as straight and playable but has light wear on the shafts, finish, wrap, ferrules and tips from plenty of play.

Anyway, it's pretty obvious that there is a wide spectrum of opinions on what constitutes mint condition and I earlier posted that I could go along with whatever version the cue professionals here on Az came up with. Maybe there should be a committee formed using these cue professionals and, at least for selling cues on AZ, try to come up with some better defined terms & standards. It might facilitate future cue purchases....maybe not.......but the billiard industry sure would benefit from better standard definitions for cue quality.

How do you fellows feel about this, aside from not liking this author?

Matt B.
 
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The Bluebook is a GUIDE first and foremost and at the moment, the only thing to go by. However the pricing can be thrown out the window, but the definitions of condition are pretty good guides.

The author is a good guy and I think he took on a thankless project and right after the last version the market went a little whacky. Its a shame you can barely trust anyone, otherwise there should be a "LIVE" website where you could put in your transactions (anonymously to the public, but registered to get in) , that WOULD help the market if it was done honestly and accurately.

JV

Bavafongoul said:
I previously posted that I'd go along with any definition of this term, or any terms for that matter, which are not already established standards for the billiard industry, such as cue level ratings and some examples are Level 2 cue has 0 points & 0 - 25 inlays; Level 4 cue has 4 - 10 points & 9 -25 inlays, Level 6 cue has 0 -12 points & 51 - 75 inlays and a Level 8 cue has 0 - 12 points and 126 or more inlays.

The level of intricacy grading of cue designs is absolutely essential for establishing cue values. The grading system works best with simple cue designs and becomes more difficult to determine values as the level of compexity increases, especially past Level 4. At this point, many different inlays and points may be used.

The Blue Book refers to "Mint" as 100% condition, virtually brand new condition, straight butt and shafts. no nicks, dings, or scratches, possibly never chalked."

98% "Almost no observable wear, perhaps extremely light finish scratching, near 100% except for chalk on tip, ferrules and shaft. It is slightly lower than mint (in other words it's been played).
The Blue Book doesn't refer to "like new" and so I'm thinking the 98% description seems appropriate to use for that category, "Like New".

95% condition is described as very light observable wear, has seen a fair amount of use, perhaps light finish scratching, close to mint.

90% is described as straight and playable but has light wear on the shafts, finish, wrap, ferrules and tips from plenty of play.

Anyway, it's pretty obvious that there is a wide spectrum of opinions on what constitutes mint condition and I earlier posted that I could go along with whatever version the cue professionals here on Az came up with. Maybe there should be a committee formed using these cue professionals and at least for selling cues on AZ, come up with some definitions and standards. It might facilitate future cue purchases....maybe not.......but the billiard industry sure would benefit from increased standard definitions for cue quality.

How do you fellows feel about this, aside from not liking the author?

Matt B.
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I wasn't suggesting that the values in the Blue Book are valid......Heck no, if anything, they are the minimum as guidelines........I know my Mottey is worth a lot more than what the Blue Book says......and I had the book before I bought it and I paid more than the Blue Book indicates......it's the real world that matters but the book serves merely as a guide. Nonetheless, the meaning of what is mint certainly applies and so do the level standards for pool cues.....that's the only point I was attempting to make, aside from I think there's a big need for better definitions here on the Forum for the overall sake of the buyer, as much as the seller.

Matt B.

p.s. I'm interested in buying a Level 6 Ed Prewitt, Joel Hercek, or Danny Tibbits cue/flat ivory joint/18 oz range......please keep me in mind if you own such a cue.
Will also consider above cue-makers' Level 5 cues (26 -50 inlays) or any Richard Black Alamo cue (ivory joint) - cue weight 18 oz range.
 
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The Blue Book is a guide of sorts, and it is several years old. Pricing in it is very off on the low side for some cues, and very off on the high side for others. It is nowhere near an accurate guage for prices in today's market.

I don't think that you will ever get an agreement on what "mint", etc means. All the words we use to describe cues are subjective, and the way one person describes a cue will be different from another. It doesn't necessarily mean the other guy is out to screw you over. A good refund/return policy is the gold standard, IMO.
Joe
 
Just because an item is restored does not mean that it cannot be "mint" and that is why "mint" and "like new" are different.

I think we may be complicating things. If an item is in 100% condition, then it doesn't matter that it has been restored. If a tip has been replaced, that is ok as well,
as long as the condition is 100%.

I don't think the blue book definition of "mint" should apply. It's too ambiguous, imo. believe that "mint" may be a higher standard than "like new" or even "new" because it describes the actual "condition". It may be interchangeable with 100%, but I don't like 100% because it implies "infinity" or something that is so elusive. One might return a cue for any reason they concoct. I just don't like it. I prefer "mint"

You often see high priced antique vehicles described as being in "mint" condition after they have been carefully restored.

This seems to be a fair def.....

1) shows NO signs of use whatsoever; and
2) is in sound condition in every respect.
 
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Neilhin....oh boy......you're wrong....there are collectors that want originality....and those are the auctions/sales that bring the highest yields........refinishing a cue may still get you a nice price but when you do that, you completely eliminate that group of cue collectors that only want original.....and there are a lot of them. Yes, refinishing a cue will help it get sold and could very way lift the price too at the same time if the cue was is mediocre shape before refinishing....but original collectors would never want a cue like that and those guys pay top dollar too.
 
Bavafongoul said:
Neilhin....oh boy......you're wrong....there are collectors that want originality....and those are the auctions/sales that bring the highest yields........refinishing a cue may still get you a nice price but when you do that, you completely eliminate that group of cue collectors that only want original.....and there are a lot of them. Yes, refinishing a cue will help it get sold and could very way lift the price too at the same time if the cue was is mediocre shape before refinishing....but original collectors would never want a cue like that and those guys pay top dollar too.
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As far as collectible custom cues are concerned, I couldn't agree with you more; but we're getting slightly off topic.

The fact that a cue is original makes it worth significantly more and I completely understand that an original unrestored cue will be worth more than a "mint" condition restored cue but for the sake of simplicity, I believe the word "mint" should refer to the condition and collector / value aspects should be addressed separately.
 
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Guys want their cues MINT and UNTOUCHED...

To bad we weren't as picky with our women... lol :eek::wink:

JV
 
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