Mirror Image Bank/Kick Sighting Trick

[mortuarymike-nv]

Mirror system

Actually, it should be over the "gutter" (the worn path about an inch from the cushion nose), but that's harder to do with an actual physical mirror. I've seen mirrors designed to sit under the rails, but they have the same positioning problem.

pj
chgo

The Mirror's that Dan Ponds made don't have any issues where they are mounted because they are adjustable in every way to get the mirror in the right position.


I shoot a half a tip inside English, so I can understand you wanting to line up on the gutter ..
Or I move the aiming point to adjust for what seems like extra angle depending on what speed I am shooting the cue ball .

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I shoot a half a tip inside English, so I can understand you wanting to line up on the gutter ..

The gutter is where the ball's center changes direction, so it's where I like to visualize the mirror (and where you need to do the equal-angle "math" using the diamonds), but I don't shoot on the equal angle line - I just use it for comparison with the actual shot.

Or I move the aiming point to adjust for what seems like extra angle depending on what speed I am shooting the cue ball .

Me too (and depending on sidespin, steepness of angle, equipment, etc.).

Again, visualizing these equal angle tracks is to have fixed reference tracks to help aim actual shots - the actual path is rarely the equal angle track, because of all the reasons we listed.

pj
chgo

 

[mortuarymike-nv]

Shooting pool

The gutter is where the ball's center changes direction, so it's where I like to visualize the mirror (and where you need to do the equal-angle "math" using the diamonds), but I don't shoot on the equal angle line - I just use it for comparison with the actual shot.


Me too (and depending on sidespin, steepness of angle, equipment, etc.).

Again, visualizing these equal angle tracks is to have fixed reference tracks to help aim actual shots - the actual path is rarely the equal angle track, because of all the reasons we listed.

pj
chgo

I am all for improving my game, personally I think everyone can learn something by using the mirror's.

Its just another system or method to help teach pool players how to bank and kick.
Except the mirror system seems to improve peoples game extremely fast..

 

[pdcue]

The gutter is where the ball's center changes direction, so it's where I like to visualize the mirror (and where you need to do the equal-angle "math" using the diamonds), but I don't shoot on the equal angle line - I just use it for comparison with the actual shot.


Me too (and depending on sidespin, steepness of angle, equipment, etc.).

Again, visualizing these equal angle tracks is to have fixed reference tracks to help aim actual shots - the actual path is rarely the equal angle track, because of all the reasons we listed.

pj
chgo

As a registered voter from the center of the Bank Pool Universe - I gotta say. like
fractional ball Aiming and Diamond Systems - this a great tool for explaining shots.

Actually shooting shots - not so much.

Dale

 

[dr_dave]

As a registered voter from the center of the Bank Pool Universe - I gotta say. like fractional ball Aiming and Diamond Systems - this a great tool for explaining shots.

Actually shooting shots - not so much.

For people who have excellent intuition and feel for aiming kick and bank shots built up by countless years of practice and successful experience, diamond and mirror systems are not necessary or helpful. But for mere mortals who don't yet have perfect aiming intuition, diamond and mirror systems and a little knowledge of kick and bank effects (for making adjustments to the systems) can be extremely helpful, even at the table.

Regards,
Dave

 

[ENGLISH!]

I'll just say that I don't like looking off of the table, not even for that spot on the wall for 3 rail banks.

FOR ME, staying focused on the table with angle in & angle out in mind & that bit of simply dividing by 2 gets me a base line IF I do not readily see one.

Best 2 ALL.

PS Knowledge can be a great thing, but there is still no substitute for experience. So... spend a day hitting nothing but banks & one will learn...

Very Much.

 

[dr_dave]

... there is still no substitute for experience ....

Agreed. Nothing beats "intuition" and "feel" built up by countless years of smart practice and successful experience.

Regards,
Dave

 

[ENGLISH!]

Agreed. Nothing beats "intuition" and "feel" built up by countless years of smart practice and successful experience.

Regards,
Dave

Dave,

Why do you continue to say 'Countless Years' of...

Everyone learns at different rates & spends different amounts of time at the table on a weekly or daily basis.

This Game is NOT rocket science. Maybe it comes down to the topic of another thread, confidence. That is one's innate level of confidence in one's self.

As I've said rather often, I am very glad that I started playing BEFORE I received my 3 years of physics education.

One does not NEED to know or understand ANY physics or other science or mathematics as such.

One merely 'needs' to learn cause & effect. Do this then this. If this then that.

Like I said, If one simply spends a single day, NOT Countless Years, at the table hitting nothing but banks, then one can learn VERY MUCH, if one just pays attention & is focused on learning. Basic geometry, or knowing how a ball bounces off of a wall or the floor is a good starting point.

Regards,
Rick

 

[Patrick Johnson]

As a registered voter from the center of the Bank Pool Universe - I gotta say. like
fractional ball Aiming and Diamond Systems - this a great tool for explaining shots.

Actually shooting shots - not so much.

Dale

Actually, it is a great tool for shooting shots if you know how to use it (as a "guide" for aiming by feel). You don't - OK. Others do.

pj
chgo

 

[pdcue]

Actually, it is a great tool for shooting shots if you know how to use it (as a "guide" for aiming by feel). You don't - OK. Others do.

pj
chgo

Actually - I'm all in favor of understanding as much as possible, however this
is just another "trick" that detracts from the goal of learning how to shoot balls into holes.

FWIW - aiming by "feel" is yet another unfortunate misnomer that clouds true understanding.
I understand where to hit balls based on knowledge and experience.

There is no "feeling" of any kind.

I know it is a common term used in many contexts because it is shorter than the phrase
"I don't know how to explain what I do".

Dale(feeling groovy)

 

[JB Cases]

How to use the same system for playing safe more accurately.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gbjl_8wtcS8

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Actually - I'm all in favor of understanding as much as possible, however this
is just another "trick"
that detracts from the goal of learning how to shoot balls into holes.

It is "just a trick" (not for permanent use), but it does have an educational purpose, as explained in the post. I think it advances the goal of learning how to shoot. It's just not your cup of tea.

FWIW - aiming by "feel" is yet another unfortunate misnomer that clouds true understanding. I understand where to hit balls based on knowledge and experience.Regas (Gethsemane) says stop by any time for window potted plant advice.
There is no "feeling" of any kind.

Lots of people share your over-literal misunderstanding of the term "feel". It just means there's some estimation involved, which is what we improve with knowledge and experience. I try to use less ambiguous terms, like "practiced estimation", but that gets cumbersome and may be even less well understood.

I know it is a common term used in many context because it is shorter than the phrase
"I don't know how to explain what I do".

It's used that way a lot - but that's a fairly accurate description of "feel", which, after all, is subconscious.

pj
chgo

 

[dr_dave]

Agreed. Nothing beats "intuition" and "feel" built up by countless years of smart practice and successful experience.

Dave,

Why do you continue to say 'Countless Years' of...

.. because to learn and develop all of the intuition necessary to become and remain an extremely effective kicker and banker takes a very long time over a wide range of equipment and conditions, especially if the learning is done strictly by trial and error with little or no understanding of underlying effects.

One does not NEED to know or understand ANY physics or other science or mathematics as such.

One merely 'needs' to learn cause & effect. Do this then this. If this then that.

I agree that pool players don't need to know anything about math and physics. However, having an understanding (not of the math and physics, but of the observable effects) of how and why things happen at the table can help speed the learning process for some (if not many) people. For more info and explanation related to this topic, see:

pool physics "understanding" sometimes provides useful insight

knowledge can be useful, but you still need skill

Regards,
Dave

 

[mortuarymike-nv]

My friend

I called my friend up who introduced me to using a mirror and was talking to him about this thread.
I said it would be really cool if you chimed in on this thread.

He said, Mike the people who don't think the mirror will improve there game is the same people who I beat at these local tournaments.......................

This is what kills me,
Almost everyone has a mirror laying around, it only takes seconds to have some hold the mirror to do a few practice shots and see if it would benefit there game or not...

 

[ENGLISH!]

.. because to learn and develop all of the intuition necessary to become and remain an extremely effective kicker and banker takes a very long time over a wide range of equipment and conditions, especially if the learning is done strictly by trial and error with little or no understanding of underlying effects.

I agree that pool players don't need to know anything about math and physics. However, having an understanding (not of the math and physics, but of the observable effects) of how and why things happen at the table can help speed the learning process for some (if not many) people. For more info and explanation related to this topic, see:

pool physics "understanding" sometimes provides useful insight

knowledge can be useful, but you still need skill

Regards,
Dave

Dave

Everyone... & I would say 'most' are not ALL slow learners.

Some learn very fast & it does not take any where near a single year for them to become rather good bankers & kickers. Certainly not 'countless years'.

Then again... some will NEVER be good at it.

In school there are advanced & remedial classes.

One can read books all day long on how to throw a curve ball & never be able to do it until they start trying to throw a curve ball. The same can be said for hitting one.

Knowing & doing are two very different things.

I'm not saying knowledge is bad, certainly not.

But time on the table will take as many or more of those 'countless years' off the learning curve as will time in the books.

How one proceeds is up to them, as it should be.

There is no proof (that I know of) that anyone ever became a pro pool player any quicker by going the book route over spending time on the table.

Regards,
Rick

 

[ENGLISH!]

I called my friend up who introduced me to using a mirror and was talking to him about this thread.
I said it would be really cool if you chimed in on this thread.

He said, Mike the people who don't think the mirror will improve there game is the same people who I beat at these local tournaments.......................

This is what kills me,
Almost everyone has a mirror laying around, it only takes seconds to have some hold the mirror to do a few practice shots and see if it would benefit there game or not...

Is it within the rules to have a friend hold a mirror for me when I want to bank a ball?

The concept is solid for light that travels in a straight line & reflects with no influence of rail compression & friction.

The equal in equal out concept & simple math are just as effective & do not have to rely on 'imagination' & estimation of the distance on the other side of that non existent 'mirror'.

Also for me, I like keeping my focus on the table & not 4-5 or 8-9 feet away from it.

Naturally, this is just my take on the matter.

Best 2 YOU & All.

 

[JB Cases]

Actually - I'm all in favor of understanding as much as possible, however this
is just another "trick"
that detracts from the goal of learning how to shoot balls into holes.

FWIW - aiming by "feel" is yet another unfortunate misnomer that clouds true understanding. I understand where to hit balls based on knowledge and experience.
There is no "feeling" of any kind.

I know it is a common term used in many context because it is shorter than the phrase
"I don't know how to explain what I do".

Dale(feeling groovy)

It's not a trick at all. It's a solid way to aim bank and kick shots. Shane uses it, Karl Boyes uses it and a lot of pros use it. Lots of pros teach it as well.

 

[mortuarymike-nv]

Mirror

Is it within the rules to have a friend hold a mirror for me when I want to bank a ball?

The concept is solid for light that travels in a straight line & reflects with no influence of rail compression & friction.

The equal in equal out concept & simple math are just as effective & do not have to rely on 'imagination' & estimation of the distance on the other side of that non existent 'mirror'.

Also for me, I like keeping my focus on the table & not 4-5 or 8-9 feet away from it.

Naturally, this is just my take on the matter.

Best 2 YOU & All.

I consider you a friend, But your opening statement floored me .

It doesn't take a college degree to explain that using a mirror is a practice tool ....
How many practice tools are there that is allowed to be used in any tournament ?
I don't know of any..............................
I don't know why you made this a point, Do you ? :scratchhead:

Sometimes players just need a good idea where to shoot the ball into the rail so they can start adjusting to the rails compression and the speed they shoot the ball .
The mirror does help in that respect.
As said over and over it helps players to imagine the shot.

Our educational system are graduating students that cant do math, cant figure tax rates or even write down a dinner order on a piece of paper.

Not everyone is the same, and normally there are allot of ways of learning the same thing.
What's the big deal how someone learns something important as long as they learn ?

Focus points if our vision is 20/20 then focus points are fairly good up to 8 or 9 feet .
If its a is a issue for you then I could understand but its not a issue for everyone !


Please step up and run a thread on what technic you use to kick and bank.

Throw some positive stuff out if you know all about how to kick and bank instead of the normal negative crap that seems to spread in this forum like some STD.
If I could help your game I would, If you can help my game then please do.

And in all honesty if (you ) think the mirror system doesn't work, I got some action for you .... Are you game ?








.

 

[ENGLISH!]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I think you may be over reacting to my first statement.

My point was that, yes it is an aid but then one is left without it & must then do what they do not do when the aid is present. It's rather easy to 'imagine' the mirror pocket in the wrong location.

Everyone's ability for judging distance etc., their spatial awareness is not of equal ability.

The issues arise when 'we' start making definitive statements that may not be, & probably are not universal.

The mirror method may be great for some & terrible for others.

All I was doing was stating that I prefer to keep my focus ON the actual table.

I did not say that everyone has to do what I do... or that no one should use or try the mirror method.

Each individual should make their own determinations & be responsible for their own games.

At 62 & with eye & back issues, I'm not as good as I once was... but I can be once as good as I ever was.

I hope You can see & understand my points.

Best Wishes to You & Yours...

& All.

 

[mortuarymike-nv]

62

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I think you may be over reacting to my first statement.

My point was that, yes it is an aid but then one is left without it & must then do what they do not do when the aid is present. It's rather easy to 'imagine' the mirror pocket in the wrong location.

Everyone's ability for judging distance etc., their spatial awareness is not of equal ability.

The issues arise when 'we' start making definitive statements that may not be, & probably are not universal.

The mirror method may be great for some & terrible for others.

All I was doing was stating that I prefer to keep my focus ON the actual table.

I did not say that everyone has to do what I do... or that no one should use or try the mirror method.

Each individual should make their own determinations & be responsible for their own games.

At 62 & with eye & back issues, I'm not as good as I once was... but I can be once as good as I ever was.

I hope You can see & understand my points.

Best Wishes to You & Yours...

& All.

The player I was going to match you against is 62 and blind in one eye .... honestly. LOL
Personally The mirror had a instant improvement on my game.
Sorry if I over reacted to your statement, I Think if you were on my end of the statement you could of viewed it some what the same as I did.
But personally Its not anything that I wish to worry about and I hope you feel the same way.

Anytime you get up my way, hey I am down for lunch a and some pool 100% on me.
And if you loose I will even give you a mirror to practice with.
If I loose you teach me you bank kick system .

Until then I will be practicing with any and every training aid or kick bank system that will help my game.

Peace



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