Miscue == foul?

[SpiderWebComm]

Question (because I'm a R'Tard):

If, when drawing the CB, the tip miscues and scoops under the CB (which results in the CB riding up on the ferrule and shaft.... repeat... touching the ferrule and/or wood)...... how could an educated pool player think that's an OK shot. For me, if any part of the cue outside of the leather tip touches the CB--- I would think that's an auto-foul.

I mean, to me.... there are two types of miscues: 1) When the tip loses grip with the CB and the ferrule/shaft do not hit and 2) When the tip loses grip with the CB and the ferrule/shaft DO hit.

If you hear a "CLANK" - ferrule/wood smashed into the CB.

I mean, if the ferrule/shaft can make a legal hit on the CB---why can't you just scoop legally? Right? Stupid.

I think there are big debates with this item because the HUGE mass of pool players are lower-end players who would get into a fist fight over a foul being called on them for a miscue--- so the rule guys throw in words like "intentional" and such to keep it friendly among the commoners.

augh

The rule above says "unless obviously visible" yet the sound of a CLANK isn't proof enough? What made the CLANK sound? Did someone step on a f'ing duck??? sheesh

hahaha this is the only rule in all of pool that honestly makes zero sense to me. They need to remove words like INTENTIONAL. Words like that have no place in rule books. Everything is black/white - screw feelings.

 

[Maniac]

What made the CLANK sound? Did someone step on a f'ing duck??? sheesh

Let me answer that after I've eaten a bowlful of fried cabbage and drank a few brewskies :grin-square::grin-square::grin-square:!!!

Maniac

 

[scratchs]

I just looked at bcapool.com rules and again under rule 1.32 says that a miscue is not a foul. Can't even find a 3.26/3.27

Under rule 1.34 a "scoop" jump shot is a foul but I think that does not apply here because the OP stated that the shooter was trying to shoot a combination with draw, miscued and "unintentionally" jumped the ball.

The ref was obviously sure in his mind that a scoop jump was not intended and even if not sure, ties go to the shooter.

In the heat of the moment, I may have done the same thing, but I think it was a bad call.

Sorry..my mistake..the rule 3.26/3.27 are out of the small hand book that bca put out for 2003-2005..like I said my hand book is old,will be getting a new one..an at that time bca was not bcapl..my mistake..I just assumed the orignial post was bca league night my bad..

 

[scratchs]

Skor

I haven't played bcapl for 4/5 years..so are the wpa rules an the new hand book in reguards to bcapl the same...just wondering? I have never read the wpa hand book.

 

[GADawg]

No problem. just want to be clear with those (not you) who never read the rules but depend on what someone who is an "expert" tells them.

I am too old to play very well, but I help a lot of younger players. I tell them to be sure they know and understand the rules. The rules can be your friend if you understand them better than the other guy.

When I played in leagues, the rules changed a little every year. Before the start of the season, we would get the team together and review all of the rules for 1-2 hours to be sure everyone understood what they could or could not do. It won a couple matches for us and our folks felt really smart because they knew and the others didn't.

I remember when one of our ladies was playing a much better man in 8 ball. She called a safety and pocketed a ball, leaving him an impossible hit and out. She ended up winning and was so excited she cried. He was upset because he did not know she could do that and thought he had left her hard. He did not know the rules.

 

[Jaden]

actually, that depends on the rules...

I do agree that Unintentional Miscue is not a foul as long as it Unintentionally hit the Cue Ball. But if you miscue and the cue (e.g. Ferrule, Tip, Shaft) hits an Object Ball other than the CB, then it is a foul.

Texas express rules is that if you hit an OB and move it with your person or your cue, if the moved OB does not interfere with the path of other struck balls, it is NOT a foul and the opponent gets the option of replacing it to its original position or leaving it there...

Jaden

P.S. also, when it refers to the ferule or shaft striking the CB while it's in play being a foul, it's referring to secondary contact that is obvious, this happens a lot during miscues as the CB doesn't always get out of the way of a proper follow through and it is obvious...

 

[dr_dave]

FYI, I have some videos and info covering this topic here:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/fouls.html#miscue​

It is also a feature in my December '09 BD article.

Enjoy,
Dave

One of our club players and another guy from another club had to play a league match yesterday at my pool hall. The two hate each other's guts, and jump at every opportunity to call foul to piss the other off. Last time they played, one of them called foul on a piece of clothing touching a ball, the other denied it, and the situation almost ended up in a fight. This time, the boss didn't want any trouble, so he asked me to referee the match.

At some point, the guy from the other club miscued, but the ball went in. I called foul, because the "clunk" noise clearly indicated to me that his cue's shaft or ferrule had hit the cueball. He started yielling that it's always the same in our f...ing club, we're all a bunch of bastard, we'll get you when you come play in ours, the federation will hear about you guys, and yada-yada, then unscrewed, packed up and left rather noisily. The boss said to me "great job, that went really smoothly, thanks a lot..."

I feel bad about this. Was I technically right to call a foul? Or should I have overlooked it, considering the guy was already quite agitated and getting his ass whooped anyway, in the interest of maintaining a semblance of peace in the joint (and my club buddy probably wouldn't have said anything)?

 

[GADawg]

Dr. Dave

We really don't need information and facts from anyone who really knows anything.

Thanks for your effort, but facts will only be refuted by our strongly held personal opinions.

Really, I have learned a lot from your selfless sharing through the years. Thanks sincerely.

 

[dr_dave]

Dr. Dave

We really don't need information and facts from anyone who really knows anything.

Thanks for your effort, but facts will only be refuted by our strongly held personal opinions.

Silly me. :sorry:

Really, I have learned a lot from your selfless sharing through the years. Thanks sincerely.

Thanks ... and you're welcome.

Dave

 

[scratchs]

GADawg
Yes you are right,haveing the right rule book,an being on the same page as everyone esle really helps..imop it never hurts to have a rule book on hand when play..no arguments..just say hey..let's look it up..To old to play aye....lol..heard that before.
You an yours have a good day..or evening..

 

[grindz]

One of our club players and another guy from another club had to play a league match yesterday at my pool hall. The two hate each other's guts, and jump at every opportunity to call foul to piss the other off. Last time they played, one of them called foul on a piece of clothing touching a ball, the other denied it, and the situation almost ended up in a fight. This time, the boss didn't want any trouble, so he asked me to referee the match.

At some point, the guy from the other club miscued, but the ball went in. I called foul, because the "clunk" noise clearly indicated to me that his cue's shaft or ferrule had hit the cueball. He started yielling that it's always the same in our f...ing club, we're all a bunch of bastard, we'll get you when you come play in ours, the federation will hear about you guys, and yada-yada, then unscrewed, packed up and left rather noisily. The boss said to me "great job, that went really smoothly, thanks a lot..."

I feel bad about this. Was I technically right to call a foul? Or should I have overlooked it, considering the guy was already quite agitated and getting his ass whooped anyway, in the interest of maintaining a semblance of peace in the joint (and my club buddy probably wouldn't have said anything)?

You Definitely should have overlooked it, if you were unsure of the set of rules you were going by, and if the ball didn't visibly jump up and land on the shaft and/or ferrule IMO.

If I were "the boss", the fact that you single handedly perpetuated a large group of players bad will toward my business with a 'nitty' call, would have
me just tickled pink. :wink:

Question; Why would you allow yourself to be placed as a ref. if you don't know the rules? If you are in that position, either have a set of known rules to go by or establish your own set beforehand.

Resolution; Never be the ref., unless you just like to be in charge.....it's a
sure way to lose some hair.

Just kidding you a little..... good luck next time.

td

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Dr. Dave sums it up well. Gotta love words like "intention" --- and other crap that no one can discern other than the shooter.

Just like when Rodman used to go up for a rebound and throw his elbow into someone's throat who was also going for the ball. Rodman would say it was totally unintentional--- he was only focusing on the ball itself and never saw the other guy. The other guy, while gasping for air and trying to regain his swallowing mechanism would say that's horsesh1t. Fortunately for the NBA and basketball (whose rule writers are WAY smarter than the pool rule-writers) say things in black & white and in terms that can't be debated. Bury your elbow into someone's throat and you're getting the whistle.

In football, when you're running with the ball and try to stiff arm someone off your azz, it's EASY to say, "Gee, I wasn't trying to stiff arm him square in the face mask and send him down to the turf with a sore neck--- I was looking straight ahead at the goal line." However, you're getting the flag because unlike pool--- it's black & white. Either you grabbed someone's face mask or you didn't. Leave your "intent" in your other pants and move the ball back.

What about golf? How many golfers DIDN'T try to ground their club in a bunker, but did accidentally. Or worse yet, merely address the golf ball only to have the ground depress a little which causes the ball to roll back slightly? Did they try it? Of course not. Did they get socked with a stroke penalty? Believe it. You'll never find the word "INTENT" in a golf rulebook when it comes to stroke penalties.

Yet, pool as a sport has intent all throughout its rulebook. Intentional this, unintentional that. I say it's all crap bs written so bar leagues don't have to peel people off one another over a foul call. I say, let them beat each other up and maintain the integrity of the game.

Here's a simple idea: If anything other than the tip hits the CB....FOUL. Erase the other paragraphs about intent and sportsmanship. All that gray area crap can get erased. Leave it black & white: either the tip made good contact or it didn't.

Let's look to the SUCCESSFUL sports to see how they officiate and copy them.

 

[GADawg]

GADawg
Yes you are right,haveing the right rule book,an being on the same page as everyone esle really helps..imop it never hurts to have a rule book on hand when play..no arguments..just say hey..let's look it up..To old to play aye....lol..heard that before.
You an yours have a good day..or evening..

Thanks. It's evening here now (11:37pm) and us old folks are going to bed soon. Need our rest. tomorrow schedule hectic. Get up, put in teeth, eat breakfast, rock on porch, eat lunch, rock on porch and tell lies, drink wine, eat dinner, take out teeth, go to bed. Makes me tired just thinking about it!

I always love to be a page ahead on the rules and show someone something they don't know. Just for laughs of course.

 

[skor]

Dr. Dave sums it up well. Gotta love words like "intention" --- and other crap that no one can discern other than the shooter.

Just like when Rodman used to go up for a rebound and throw his elbow into someone's throat who was also going for the ball. Rodman would say it was totally unintentional--- he was only focusing on the ball itself and never saw the other guy. The other guy, while gasping for air and trying to regain his swallowing mechanism would say that's horsesh1t. Fortunately for the NBA and basketball (whose rule writers are WAY smarter than the pool rule-writers) say things in black & white and in terms that can't be debated. Bury your elbow into someone's throat and you're getting the whistle.

In football, when you're running with the ball and try to stiff arm someone off your azz, it's EASY to say, "Gee, I wasn't trying to stiff arm him square in the face mask and send him down to the turf with a sore neck--- I was looking straight ahead at the goal line." However, you're getting the flag because unlike pool--- it's black & white. Either you grabbed someone's face mask or you didn't. Leave your "intent" in your other pants and move the ball back.

What about golf? How many golfers DIDN'T try to ground their club in a bunker, but did accidentally. Or worse yet, merely address the golf ball only to have the ground depress a little which causes the ball to roll back slightly? Did they try it? Of course not. Did they get socked with a stroke penalty? Believe it. You'll never find the word "INTENT" in a golf rulebook when it comes to stroke penalties.

Yet, pool as a sport has intent all throughout its rulebook. Intentional this, unintentional that. I say it's all crap bs written so bar leagues don't have to peel people off one another over a foul call. I say, let them beat each other up and maintain the integrity of the game.

Here's a simple idea: If anything other than the tip hits the CB....FOUL. Erase the other paragraphs about intent and sportsmanship. All that gray area crap can get erased. Leave it black & white: either the tip made good contact or it didn't.

Let's look to the SUCCESSFUL sports to see how they officiate and copy them.

Again, the biggest problem is to know for sure that such contact happen... you can get similar sound when using hard tips without hitting the ferrule/wood.....

There are many things that should be fixed with pool before dealing with miscues... if you bring up intent then stat with "cue ball fouls only" WTF is that all about....

 

[GADawg]

Again,
There are many things that should be fixed with pool before dealing with miscues... if you bring up intent then stat with "cue ball fouls only" WTF is that all about....

You got that right. One thing I like about playing in Asia is that no one here ever heard of "CB fouls only." A foul is a foul and all players are honorable enough to call fouls on themselves even if no one sees it.


I think there are very few instances of "intentional" miscue shots and they are pretty obvious to everyone. In the case here, I believe the OP said that the shooter was lining up an obvious combination with draw, miscued, jumped over th OB and pocketed the other ball.

Under today's rules, as I read them, that is not a foul. You and I may not agree with the rules but that is what we have to play by.

I say to those who do not like the rules to propose better rules, in exact language, to the rules committees of the governing bodies. Maybe something will change. *****ing about it on AZB will not accomplish much.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Again, the biggest problem is to know for sure that such contact happen... you can get similar sound when using hard tips without hitting the ferrule/wood.....

There are many things that should be fixed with pool before dealing with miscues... if you bring up intent then stat with "cue ball fouls only" WTF is that all about....

Good point. That's another stupid rule. Either you move balls and have it be a foul or you don't. Black / white. If you move a ball accidentally - FOUL. If you don't like it...well, make sure you don't touch it next time so you won't have to worry about it.

I can't tell you how many times I've played someone who had two balls locked-up in 9ball and when they leaned into their shot--- one of the balls got "UNINTENTIONALLY" bumped forward during the shot (now an open table). Now, since I have the option of putting it back--- I LOCK them back up and a fight ensues. "It WASN'T THERE!!, cry, cry cry!!!" All I know is they didn't go before and I'm making sure they're def not going now. All of this "THATS NOT HOW THEY WERE SITTING" fights would be eliminated by having it be BIH for the incoming player--- just like on TV.

 

[Fastolfe]

A question came to me. If the player from your team had done the same, would you have called the foul? If so, would he have agreed?

Yes and yes. We may be playing in the same club, but I had every intention of doing my little referee job as honestly as I could.

Did the shot look something like this: www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgBfkjkpZcc

Yes, in much less spectacular (the ball jumped 5 inches or something).

What rule did you use to call this a foul???

There's a rule in my book that says it's a foul to touch the cueball with anything other than the tip in the course a shot. I don't have it in front of me, but I'll dig it out of the car tomorrow.

 

[Junior1228]

Good point. That's another stupid rule. Either you move balls and have it be a foul or you don't. Black / white. If you move a ball accidentally - FOUL. If you don't like it...well, make sure you don't touch it next time so you won't have to worry about it.

I couldn't agree more. I think that's how it should be played. PERIOD

Just my .02 though.

 

[dr_dave]

Spidey,

I'm with you on this one. The rules should be simplified as much as possible, and judgment of "intent" should be eliminated wherever possible.

The problem with miscues is that they don't always involve multiple hits; although, I believe most of them do based on my videos.

I personally think every miscue should be a foul, because it usually involves secondary contact from the tip, ferrule, or shaft; and a miscue is a mistake! (unless it is "intentional," in which case it already is considered a foul)

Concerning football, there are judgment calls. For example, to decide whether a personal foul is 15 yards or not, the referee must judge the "intent" of the offending player. Any interesting sport is always going to have interesting rules that will always cause disagreements, IMO. But I still think we can do better with pool rules.

Regards,
Dave

Dr. Dave sums it up well. Gotta love words like "intention" --- and other crap that no one can discern other than the shooter.

Just like when Rodman used to go up for a rebound and throw his elbow into someone's throat who was also going for the ball. Rodman would say it was totally unintentional--- he was only focusing on the ball itself and never saw the other guy. The other guy, while gasping for air and trying to regain his swallowing mechanism would say that's horsesh1t. Fortunately for the NBA and basketball (whose rule writers are WAY smarter than the pool rule-writers) say things in black & white and in terms that can't be debated. Bury your elbow into someone's throat and you're getting the whistle.

In football, when you're running with the ball and try to stiff arm someone off your azz, it's EASY to say, "Gee, I wasn't trying to stiff arm him square in the face mask and send him down to the turf with a sore neck--- I was looking straight ahead at the goal line." However, you're getting the flag because unlike pool--- it's black & white. Either you grabbed someone's face mask or you didn't. Leave your "intent" in your other pants and move the ball back.

What about golf? How many golfers DIDN'T try to ground their club in a bunker, but did accidentally. Or worse yet, merely address the golf ball only to have the ground depress a little which causes the ball to roll back slightly? Did they try it? Of course not. Did they get socked with a stroke penalty? Believe it. You'll never find the word "INTENT" in a golf rulebook when it comes to stroke penalties.

Yet, pool as a sport has intent all throughout its rulebook. Intentional this, unintentional that. I say it's all crap bs written so bar leagues don't have to peel people off one another over a foul call. I say, let them beat each other up and maintain the integrity of the game.

Here's a simple idea: If anything other than the tip hits the CB....FOUL. Erase the other paragraphs about intent and sportsmanship. All that gray area crap can get erased. Leave it black & white: either the tip made good contact or it didn't.

Let's look to the SUCCESSFUL sports to see how they officiate and copy them.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Ya know, if they made ALL miscues a FOUL (which I think they should be as well) -- the problem would go away... right? Don't like it? Chalk more... it's free.

After all, most of you guys have your chalk hanging from a chain or a clip on your belt loop. No excuses, imo. hahahaha