More wrist action...less accuracy?

T

tim913

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This has been my problem for years, and it's probably in my head, but still a problem. If I change my grip to just let the cue rest on my middle two fingers my accuracy, ball pocketing skills, are excellent...through the roof, BUT I can't move the CB around the table that easy...not much wrist action. If I cradle my cue with forefinger and thumb I move the CB around the table with hardly any effort at all, BUT I lose accuracy, so I'm always playing a combination of both.

I read an article by trick shot artist Andy Segal once, and I think he was referring to the problem I was having, but discussing it in an entirely different context. He said that he wasn't getting the action, or deflection, he was expecting from the CB and realized he had tightened his grip.

This may sound stupid but I think when I loosen my grip I get plenty of wrist action, and therefore I'm able to move the CB effortlessly around the table, but I'm introducing more CB deflection which reduces accuracy. With the firmer grip I have less CB deflection thus accuracy improves, but I lose wrist action, and some CB control

Any thoughts??
 
tim913 said:
This has been my problem for years, and it's probably in my head, but still a problem. If I change my grip to just let the cue rest on my middle two fingers my accuracy, ball pocketing skills, are excellent...through the roof, BUT I can't move the CB around the table that easy...not much wrist action. If I cradle my cue with forefinger and thumb I move the CB around the table with hardly any effort at all, BUT I lose accuracy, so I'm always playing a combination of both.

I read an article by trick shot artist Andy Segal once, and I think he was referring to the problem I was having, but discussing it in an entirely different context. He said that he wasn't getting the action, or deflection, he was expecting from the CB and realized he had tightened his grip.

This may sound stupid but I think when I loosen my grip I get plenty of wrist action, and therefore I'm able to move the CB effortlessly around the table, but I'm introducing more CB deflection which reduces accuracy. With the firmer grip I have less CB deflection thus accuracy improves, but I lose wrist action, and some CB control

Any thoughts??
Click to expand...

Yes. The human hand is 1.) an asymmetric design, and 2.) consists of basically two (2) components: the pincer (thumb and forefinger) and the cradle (the middle/ring/pinkie fingers).

When you cradle the cue (and that's the key operative word) with your middle two fingers -- the middle and ring finger -- you're using the cradle part of your hand. When you move your grip to the pincer (thumb and forefinger), you're placing the cue in a position where something I like to call the "grabby grabbies" can take over. That is, the opening/closing of the hand -- of the cradle fingers coming off and coming back onto the cue as the hand opens and closes during the back stroke and forward stroke -- can interfere with the side-to-side accuracy of your cue delivery. Remember, the hand is an asymmetric design, and most of the "meat" of your hand is found on one side of the cue -- on the outside of the cue away from your body -- and the fingers are coming off and going back onto the cue from that same side. It's very easy -- even if you're doing it very lightly -- for those same fingers to induce a bit of a sideways "bump" and implement yaw in your cue delivery.

In order to diagnose this, you're going to have to have someone watch (or better yet, record!) your delivery stroke in action. You can also try to self-diagnose this by viewing your cue delivery in a mirror propped-up at the table facing you, but be forewarned -- subconsciously, you're going to try to correct any stroke deficiencies "live" right there, based on what you see in the mirror. It's better that you not see this with your own eyes "live" -- rather, that your stroke is recorded and you can view it later.

Hope this is helpful,
-Sean
 
tim913 said:
This has been my problem for years, and it's probably in my head, but still a problem. If I change my grip to just let the cue rest on my middle two fingers my accuracy, ball pocketing skills, are excellent...through the roof, BUT I can't move the CB around the table that easy...not much wrist action. If I cradle my cue with forefinger and thumb I move the CB around the table with hardly any effort at all, BUT I lose accuracy, so I'm always playing a combination of both.

I read an article by trick shot artist Andy Segal once, and I think he was referring to the problem I was having, but discussing it in an entirely different context. He said that he wasn't getting the action, or deflection, he was expecting from the CB and realized he had tightened his grip.

This may sound stupid but I think when I loosen my grip I get plenty of wrist action, and therefore I'm able to move the CB effortlessly around the table, but I'm introducing more CB deflection which reduces accuracy. With the firmer grip I have less CB deflection thus accuracy improves, but I lose wrist action, and some CB control

Any thoughts??
Click to expand...

yeah its very similar for me....i use less wrist action on long shots or shots that require a lot of accuracy. If i need a ton of spin i loosen up my wrist, knowing i will get action but a little less accuracy. I just have to weigh the likelihood of making the shot to get my ideal shapes, or maybe i need to just worry about making the shot and have less than ideal shapes but still a makeable shot and im still at the table. But my wrist and grip may change several times over the course of a table.
 
More wrist action does reduce accuracy...
at least, Mark Wilson strongly believes it,
he mentioned it several times in his book.

However your cradle grip doesn't necessarily
have anything to do with your wrist action.
The wrist can swing freely whether you're letting the cue rest on your middle two fingers,
or whether your cradling it.

Neither one of them will directly affect deflection. Not exactly anyway.
What happens is, if you curl your wrist inward even a little to cradle the cue,
the butt of the cue is moved closer to your hip. This causes the tip to pivot outward.
So now the tip's in a new location when you swing, and that new location
might mean more or less offset (and deflection) depending on which side of the ball you hit.

For me personally, it's tough to do a forceful follow or draw shot without tightening
my grip a little. But the books say it's truly unnecessary.
And I think they're right.

It's long gone now, but there used to be a video of
SpiderWebComm doing a power draw shot where he literally let the cue go entirely
in the middle of the stroke, allowing it to plow through the bottom of the cue ball on a draw shot,
and I seem to recall he drew the length of the table pretty easily this way.

So I don't think cradling, tightening, or wristing is needed to get movement on the cue ball.
Just the weight of the cue moving in the right direction and hitting the right spot.
 
It's actually easier to draw when you let the weight of the cue do the work...

CreeDo said:
More wrist action does reduce accuracy...
at least, Mark Wilson strongly believes it,
he mentioned it several times in his book.

However your cradle grip doesn't necessarily
have anything to do with your wrist action.
The wrist can swing freely whether you're letting the cue rest on your middle two fingers,
or whether your cradling it.

Neither one of them will directly affect deflection. Not exactly anyway.
What happens is, if you curl your wrist inward even a little to cradle the cue,
the butt of the cue is moved closer to your hip. This causes the tip to pivot outward.
So now the tip's in a new location when you swing, and that new location
might mean more or less offset (and deflection) depending on which side of the ball you hit.

For me personally, it's tough to do a forceful follow or draw shot without tightening
my grip a little. But the books say it's truly unnecessary.
And I think they're right.

It's long gone now, but there used to be a video of
SpiderWebComm doing a power draw shot where he literally let the cue go entirely
in the middle of the stroke, allowing it to plow through the bottom of the cue ball on a draw shot,
and I seem to recall he drew the length of the table pretty easily this way.

So I don't think cradling, tightening, or wristing is needed to get movement on the cue ball.
Just the weight of the cue moving in the right direction and hitting the right spot.
Click to expand...

It's always better to let the weight of the cue do the work. The moment you start forcing the cue through the CB, you start introducing things to your stroke that are not likely to help you much and can easily hurt you.

to the op, Introducing wrist action may mean that you are shifting how far off center you're hitting the cueball, which will increase the amount of spin but decrease accuracy.

I think you'll find that if you forget about trying to "twist" (with your wrist) more action out of the CB, and just aim farther from center, you'll get more action and improve your consistency as well.

Jaden
 
Maybe loose and firm are not the right adjectives to use. It would probably be better to describe it as 'whipping action' vs 'no whipping action' in the wrist if this makes sense.
 
Oh I understand exactly what you mean...

tim913 said:
Maybe loose and firm are not the right adjectives to use. It would probably be better to describe it as 'whipping action' vs 'no whipping action' in the wrist if this makes sense.
Click to expand...

It plagued me for a long time until I worked myself out of doing so.

Jaden

p.s. also of note, this is easier to get away with, with non-ld equipment. Sweeping the wrist can be gotten away with much of the time with standard deflection equipment, because your bridge is near the pivot point and BHE keeps the shot close to being on line.
 
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I've found what we do naturally concerning grip pressure is always the best

The fact is we play the game of pool with our tip, not our cue. The cue is a "delivery system (tool)" for your tip to contact and make the cue ball react in a certain, predictable (hopefully) way.

We MUST receive feedback from the tip to maximize our touch and feel for the game (which is essential to play at your highest levels).

I'm not in favor of "letting the cue do the work," because the trade off is less feel (in some cases, not all, but you do have to play more to perform well with a "loose grip".

If you want to establish YOUR best grip I suggest you notice how you hold a spoon, fork, knife, hammer, pen, or toothbrush.......simply experience what pressure is best to feel what you're influencing, then take this information and apply it to your pool grip. I've found what we do naturally concerning grip pressure is always the best for that individual.....no one can tell you what's best for you, but your own personal experience. 'The Personal Game is the Teacher'


tim913 said:
This has been my problem for years, and it's probably in my head, but still a problem. If I change my grip to just let the cue rest on my middle two fingers my accuracy, ball pocketing skills, are excellent...through the roof, BUT I can't move the CB around the table that easy...not much wrist action. If I cradle my cue with forefinger and thumb I move the CB around the table with hardly any effort at all, BUT I lose accuracy, so I'm always playing a combination of both.

I read an article by trick shot artist Andy Segal once, and I think he was referring to the problem I was having, but discussing it in an entirely different context. He said that he wasn't getting the action, or deflection, he was expecting from the CB and realized he had tightened his grip.

This may sound stupid but I think when I loosen my grip I get plenty of wrist action, and therefore I'm able to move the CB effortlessly around the table, but I'm introducing more CB deflection which reduces accuracy. With the firmer grip I have less CB deflection thus accuracy improves, but I lose wrist action, and some CB control

Any thoughts??
Click to expand...
 
CJ Wiley said:
The fact is we play the game of pool with our tip, not our cue. The cue is a "delivery system (tool)" for your tip to contact and make the cue ball react in a certain, predictable (hopefully) way.

We MUST receive feedback from the tip to maximize our touch and feel for the game (which is essential to play at your highest levels).

I'm not in favor of "letting the cue do the work," because the trade off is less feel (in some cases, not all, but you do have to play more to perform well with a "loose grip".

If you want to establish YOUR best grip I suggest you notice how you hold a spoon, fork, knife, hammer, pen, or toothbrush.......simply experience what pressure is best to feel what you're influencing, then take this information and apply it to your pool grip. I've found what we do naturally concerning grip pressure is always the best for that individual.....no one can tell you what's best for you, but your own personal experience. 'The Personal Game is the Teacher'
Click to expand...

I agree 100%. If you can't "feel" how you are playing, you aren't playing at the highest level that the game can be played at.

.
 
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