Like Shane? Yes get rid of them all
Mosconi Cup 2025, Dec. 3-6, Alexandra Palace, London
- Thread starter Bob Jewett
- Start date
storm did come over in the 80's but gambling only from what i've heard. there were a bunch of good swedes, especially ulf hjälmvall and björn jonsson. jonsson won a lot in europe but died in a car crash fairly young
Shane has won W9C. He doesn't have anything to prove. He's a lock for MC every year due to his resume. But I do agree that if he doesn't make it in points he shouldn't be on the team. Gotta keep the same energy. I highly doubt he will not earn enough points to qualify, cause I mean...look at his competition.
There's no other American that even threatens the field at a WNT Major, or any other tournament for that matter if we're gonna keep it real.
Even when it's the weakest field possible, it's still hard for them to rise to the top.
And I'm not talking about Billy Bob's Big Boy Open 9 Ball World Heyball Ultimate Championship Tournament (Fargo handicapped)
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The fact is, he's a losing player in MC and therefore no help to the team
Everybody on the team is a losing player, and nobody covered themselves in glory the past few years. SVB is the least of the team's problems.
He's been a problem this entire time unfortunately. The MC is definitely his kryptonite
dendweller
Well-known member
Maybe past performance in MC should figure more heavily in the qualification process.
maybe.It's hard to explain to people that a losing player cannot help you win, they just don't understand math
sudocrushms
Well-known member
It's actually really easy to understand: SVB has a better chance of beating the Euros than anyone else in the US. Let's be real: there's only 2 world class players in the US and as soon as you get past the top 8-10 they get shut out. Shane may not be winning, it may not be a good event for him, but there's literally no one else that can do better.
It's hard to explain to people that a losing player cannot help you win, they just don't understand math
Trying to build a new team from established players outside the current group is just going to result in a shutout. It's a fundamental lack of talent. Getting rid of the talent you do have solves nothing.
There is no "next year" fix for Team USA. If anyone with money and connections actually cares, they'll grab a bunch of young talent and start working towards winning 5 years from now. But you need depth of talent before you can start splitting the historical performance and environment hairs.
Two points.
#1. Correct me if I’m wrong. (I have no concerns you will follow through on that.) I believe Dennis Hatch is undefeated in his MC matches. This says something about the kind of personality you need to have in order to perform at your top speed at Alexandra Palace. Do you think Jack Breit or Johnny Ervolino would have missed those nine balls?
#2. Matchroom wants to make pool more popular. As I studied the videos of the gray felt against the gray frame of the table, both in the grim, joyless Brutalist/Industrial style so popular now in design, I had an image in my mind but could not pin it down. Some object that was as far from billiards and mass appeal as it could be. After two days of trying to identify that image it came to me. A catafalque.
#1. Correct me if I’m wrong. (I have no concerns you will follow through on that.) I believe Dennis Hatch is undefeated in his MC matches. This says something about the kind of personality you need to have in order to perform at your top speed at Alexandra Palace. Do you think Jack Breit or Johnny Ervolino would have missed those nine balls?
#2. Matchroom wants to make pool more popular. As I studied the videos of the gray felt against the gray frame of the table, both in the grim, joyless Brutalist/Industrial style so popular now in design, I had an image in my mind but could not pin it down. Some object that was as far from billiards and mass appeal as it could be. After two days of trying to identify that image it came to me. A catafalque.
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Badpenguin
Well-known member
I disagree, to a degree... It appeared to me to be decision making (taking the wrong shots at the wrong time) and plain old choking that primarily defeated the US. In particular, Tyler choking on three 9-balls early on, and Sky taking on shots that he should not have, over and over and over. We lost so badly because of Tyler and Sky.
It is not a skill gap, it is an issue with their thinking. I think it is possible that a sports psychologist and/or proper coaching could make a difference.
sudocrushms
Well-known member
Let's look at it outside the Mosconi scope: For any major tournament on the planet are you picking Styer, Woodward, Thorpe, Bergman, Oscar, etc, etc to even beat top Euros consistently, let alone make a run at a tournament win? Of course not. Fedor and SVB are the only two that can.
Badpenguin
Well-known member
No, but I don't expect it to be so lopsided either. These short races it really should be closer.
Edit: We _did_ win 2018 and 2019...
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I think our team wasn't all that bad. In critical racks we either missed easy shots or missed position costing us games. Those lost games resulted in two match swings in the final score. I'm not saying we should have won but rather we could have been more competitive. Perhaps only a loss by 2-4 matches by my count. I also believe the coach should have the position for a longer period. I attribute our lopsided loss more to mental mistakes than skill or lack of skill. My recommendation would be:
- keep at least 4 players for next years team
- get a coach who can help with the mental component (no easy task)
- begin building a succession plan for the next 2 to 4 years
- develop a program to identify potential players for future participation
- begin the team building process at least 6 mos ahead of the event
- keep at least 4 players for next years team
- get a coach who can help with the mental component (no easy task)
- begin building a succession plan for the next 2 to 4 years
- develop a program to identify potential players for future participation
- begin the team building process at least 6 mos ahead of the event
sudocrushms
Well-known member
Should be closer based on what? There's really no sound logic that this should have been competitive. Even before the rosters were announced i wouldn't have bet on USA getting to 6 like they did last year.
Badpenguin
Well-known member
I'm thinking based purely on Fargo, they shouldn't be winning 11-3. But I could be wrong.
sudocrushms
Well-known member
I don't have the statistical knowledge to apply to an event with 10 players and doubles, but i wouldn't be shocked if 11-3 is in the margin of error when you take racks into account. Best I can do is by average: 12.8 FR delta between the teams, p = .522 in favor of Europe, they won .583 of the racks (63-45). That's a .061 deviation from expected, which i would say is reasonable. (Mike would probably cringe at my lack of sigfigs, and other errors, but there's a reason i don't do that for a living...)
At face value though:
- Pijus is the LOWEST rated player for Europe and he's #44ish (there's a lot of shared FRs in the 810s) in the world.
- There are 2 Americans that aren't even in the Top 100.
ALL these guys can run open racks, but when you start talking fringes is when you see the biggest difference between players.
- These tables are tight and fast. You need to be able to adjust and not miss balls.
- Eye test: USA isn't in the same universe tactically as the Europeans. That will - and has - cost a ton of racks.
So conclusively:
- You need to miss less
- You need to break better
- You need to play safe at the right time, and succeed
- You need to avoid fouls and selling out racks
Better players do those things better and more consistently.
Lots of little things add up in a hurry and not in a good way for the US.
Mr Machine
Well-known member
Maybe winner takes all would be a bigger motivation than a guaranteed half just for showing up?
I'd like to see the names of the players who would sign up to be huge underdogs in a tournament.
They could play locally for a great chance to win SOMETHING, or go to the cup for a very slim chance to win quite a bit. Who knows...
To what others have said 11-3 blah blah. The truth is, the main reason the US got clobbered was the Euros out breaking them and a few dogged balls.
If the breaks were even in day 1, the US would have come away with a couple points.
The score can affect play. Maybe you go for something you would normally not. Maybe something else.
Other than the breaks not being to the Euro's level and the dogged balls, it was competitive enough and you might say they performed better than expected or the Euros under-performed. On paper the score should have been about 11-5 or 11-6 with the breaks being even and no dogged balls.
With all that went wrong, I'm surprised they got to 3.
SlateMan
Registered
Perhaps what is needed on the American side is an open-style tournament open only to US players who are citizens qualified to represent the US in the Mosconi Cup. Five separate tournaments held across the US over the year to determine the US Mosconi Cup team. If you win a qualifier, you are not eligible for additional tournaments.
New York
Phoenix
Houston
Chicago
Los Angeles
The excitement might build and bring more awareness to the Mosconi Cup and Matchroom, and open up the field to the best players in the country and not just the ones who can afford to be on tour.
New York
Phoenix
Houston
Chicago
Los Angeles
The excitement might build and bring more awareness to the Mosconi Cup and Matchroom, and open up the field to the best players in the country and not just the ones who can afford to be on tour.