Mosconi Cup: Did the Referee make and error ?

[Bob Jewett]

They are NOT stupid. It is their refusal to follow/obey the Laws.

Well, no. Many of them don't know the rules. They have never read the rules. There is not enough time in any players' meeting to go through all the rules. I know the rules pretty well, and I know enough top players to be able to say that many, and maybe most US players need some study.

Of course one problem is the goofy promoters and TDs who just make up a bunch of new rules every tournament. That keeps the players guessing and confused.

 

[Hungarian]

Agree but the problem is that the words "enough speed to possibly scratch" are subjective to opinion. Since the MC is all about the show and the drama they should have called the foul. It would have made for more buzz. But the powers that be need the Euros to win to feed the appetite of the drunk British baboons who this whole spectacle is for.

I agree it's a BS call while playing among friends, etc.

Well stated, but the problem is that the needed level of specificity might be hard to get at when rewriting the rules.

For example, if a player that has just made the nine picks up a cue ball when it still has enough speed to possibly scratch into a pocket, a foul is surely in order .... but how much further a rolling cue ball might travel is a matter of opinion and a possible area of dispute in an un-refereed match. To avoid a grey area, the rule needs to be what it is today.

... but my feeling remains that occasional, discretionary, bending of the rule in the name of good sportsmanship is in the best interests of the game.

 

[SakuJack]

But the powers that be need the Euros to win to feed the appetite of the drunk British baboons who this whole spectacle is for.

lol, sure. The European team this year was way weaker than it could have been, man for man, while the US was given free reign to pick what it saw as its best side. They also scrapped the three point rule on the breaks that the US struggled with so much (resulting in the US team actually outbreak the Euro team). Definitely "the powers that be" making it easier on the Europeans.

 

[Hungarian]

You know no one can win with 1200 drunk baboons sharking them every time at the table. The Euros have figured a way to claim and then disgrace the Mosconi name for their drunken pleasure.

Bring your best Team Euro to neutral ground and gamble for a week with our best Team USA. Play an all around and you will go home broke.

MC is a farce. Race to 5 is a joke. It's not a measure of greatness, only shows that a team can win when the odds are stacked in their favor.

lol, sure. The European team this year was way weaker than it could have been, man for man, while the US was given free reign to pick what it saw as its best side. They also scrapped the three point rule on the breaks that the US struggled with so much (resulting in the US team actually outbreak the Euro team). Definitely "the powers that be" making it easier on the Europeans.

 

[SakuJack]

You know no one can win with 1200 drunk baboons sharking them every time at the table. The Euros have figured a way to claim and then disgrace the Mosconi name for their drunken pleasure.

Bring your best Team Euro to neutral ground and gamble for a week with our best Team USA. Play an all around and you will go home broke.

MC is a farce. Race to 5 is a joke. It's not a measure of greatness, only shows that a team can win when the odds are stacked in their favor.

lol again. Your argument about the crowd may have a little (but just a little) more merit had Europe not also won three of the last four cups held on US soil, too.

And the gambling challenges are getting really, really old, and indicative of one of the many reasons pool in the US is of such a poor standard these days.

Complain about the match length all you like, but it's a series of races to five, first to 11 point, FIVE years in a row. The only joke to be found there is one about the domination of a country at what is supposed to be their own game.

 

[Grantstew]

You know no one can win with 1200 drunk baboons sharking them every time at the table. The Euros have figured a way to claim and then disgrace the Mosconi name for their drunken pleasure.

Bring your best Team Euro to neutral ground and gamble for a week with our best Team USA. Play an all around and you will go home broke.

MC is a farce. Race to 5 is a joke. It's not a measure of greatness, only shows that a team can win when the odds are stacked in their favor.

I was present in the Tower Ballroom all 4 nights, and apart from say about 5 idiots in the audience, the crowd were very well behaved. Also, the tiny minority of hecklers, were quickly told to keep it down or they were out.

I only remember 3 occasions in the entire event when the ref had to properly tell the crowd to keep it down while the players were shooting. That is hardly 1200 drunk baboons. The vast majority of the crowd also applauded good play by the US team.

Maybe if the US "team" acted more like a team, with a captain providing proper support and advice ala Johan, then you may have stood a chance. But again, you looked like a bunch of lost lonely individuals. When Shane was playing on the final night the only contact he had with his support team was when he was midway through being embarrassed by Nick the Greek, and they broke for adverts. He turned round to the rest of the US "Team" and shrugged his shoulders. Even your navy seal Amir basically turned himself into a carnival side show, wearing a USA bandana and doing Hulk Hogan impressions when the crowd were singing "Hogan Hogan give us a wave"

Also maybe learn how to lag, in a race to 5, losing 14 of the 16 lags is not going to work.

On a side note, I felt sorry for Cory Deuell, he had to play with his break cue as he couldn't get his player re-tipped. Cannot believe you lot would travel without a cue engineer, or at least having made an arrangement prior with some local to carry out any work required.

You need a re-think folks!

Your suggestion about gambling for a week is laughable at best. Maybe the Ryder cup guys should do the same??

 

[Blue Jam]

..... Niels is an imbecile and the ref is a bigger imbecile....

Imbecile ;
A person of moderate to severe mental retardation having a mental age of from three to seven years and generally being capable of some degree of communication and performance of simple tasks under supervision. The term belongs to a classification system no longer in use and is now considered offensive.

"Simple tasks" must include being the world champion (aka the best player in the world) and being named the Mosconi MVP in another European domination of the US team. :thumbup:

 

[Jaden]

you make a couple of valid points here...

I was present in the Tower Ballroom all 4 nights, and apart from say about 5 idiots in the audience, the crowd were very well behaved. Also, the tiny minority of hecklers, were quickly told to keep it down or they were out.

I only remember 3 occasions in the entire event when the ref had to properly tell the crowd to keep it down while the players were shooting. That is hardly 1200 drunk baboons. The vast majority of the crowd also applauded good play by the US team.

Maybe if the US "team" acted more like a team, with a captain providing proper support and advice ala Johan, then you may have stood a chance. But again, you looked like a bunch of lost lonely individuals. When Shane was playing on the final night the only contact he had with his support team was when he was midway through being embarrassed by Nick the Greek, and they broke for adverts. He turned round to the rest of the US "Team" and shrugged his shoulders. Even your navy seal Amir basically turned himself into a carnival side show, wearing a USA bandana and doing Hulk Hogan impressions when the crowd were singing "Hogan Hogan give us a wave"

Also maybe learn how to lag, in a race to 5, losing 14 of the 16 lags is not going to work.

On a side note, I felt sorry for Cory Deuell, he had to play with his break cue as he couldn't get his player re-tipped. Cannot believe you lot would travel without a cue engineer, or at least having made an arrangement prior with some local to carry out any work required.

You need a re-think folks!

Your suggestion about gambling for a week is laughable at best. Maybe the Ryder cup guys should do the same??

however, you are either being disingenuous, have a selective memory, or your memory is sorely lacking.

There were countless times that the ref said nothing to the crowd's crazy antics as they were getting down to shoot and countless other times that he had to constantly ask for them to quiet down.

Funny that Ken Shuman was asking them to quiet down FAR more often than the other ref...

Jaden

 

[Grantstew]

however, you are either being disingenuous, have a selective memory, or your memory is sorely lacking.

There were countless times that the ref said nothing to the crowd's crazy antics as they were getting down to shoot and countless other times that he had to constantly ask for them to quiet down.

Funny that Ken Shuman was asking them to quiet down FAR more often than the other ref...

Jaden

I am talking about when they actually stopped and made a statement to the audience about keeping quiet while players were shooting. There were a lot of simple "quiet please" moments. The crowd were far from raucous though, I reckon they were better behaved than at the York Hall 2 years ago.

Last year in Vegas, the home crowd didn't have much to cheer about, maybe next time eh

I hardly see a noisy crowd upsetting the European team though, these guys thrive under pressure.

 

[Hungarian]

Oh Lord you dork. What is it with you Euros and your need to feel power over America? USA pool don't care about the MC for the most part. What you don't understand is that in America there are no career opportunities or sponsorship opportunities that can be realized from the visibility one receives from playing in the MC. The only Americans who care about the MC are the 5 players who get paid and the coach that particular year. That should be evident after seeing the (3) unpicked hopefuls decide to stay home. In America pool is an underground game now. Nothing more, nothing less. We don't even have darts or Snuuuker on TV either. It's a league sport with a small cult following. So the majority of the fans who show up once a year in Vegas likely have little or no dedicated interest in pool. It was just something to do while on vacation in Vegas. Just like seeing a Celine Dion show. So these vacationers aren't going to ever act the way the Brit fans do. Hell, there are probably more Euro fans who attend in Vegas.

Honestly, I'm not sure why I'm butting heads with you trying to explains things that you will never consider. Only thing you will cling onto is how prestigious and righteous a Euro victory is over America.

Carry on Sir...

lol again. Your argument about the crowd may have a little (but just a little) more merit had Europe not also won three of the last four cups held on US soil, too.

And the gambling challenges are getting really, really old, and indicative of one of the many reasons pool in the US is of such a poor standard these days.

Complain about the match length all you like, but it's a series of races to five, first to 11 point, FIVE years in a row. The only joke to be found there is one about the domination of a country at what is supposed to be their own game.

 

[Hungarian]

Bullshit!!

I watched and saw how the fans froze in their tracks and hushed up while Europe was shooting and how those same baboons would move around in the line of sight of the shooter and walk up and down the aisles and make noise while the Americans were playing. Please see my previous post if you would like to understand why America doesn't care about the Mosconi Cup.

I was present in the Tower Ballroom all 4 nights, and apart from say about 5 idiots in the audience, the crowd were very well behaved. Also, the tiny minority of hecklers, were quickly told to keep it down or they were out.

I only remember 3 occasions in the entire event when the ref had to properly tell the crowd to keep it down while the players were shooting. That is hardly 1200 drunk baboons. The vast majority of the crowd also applauded good play by the US team.

Maybe if the US "team" acted more like a team, with a captain providing proper support and advice ala Johan, then you may have stood a chance. But again, you looked like a bunch of lost lonely individuals. When Shane was playing on the final night the only contact he had with his support team was when he was midway through being embarrassed by Nick the Greek, and they broke for adverts. He turned round to the rest of the US "Team" and shrugged his shoulders. Even your navy seal Amir basically turned himself into a carnival side show, wearing a USA bandana and doing Hulk Hogan impressions when the crowd were singing "Hogan Hogan give us a wave"

Also maybe learn how to lag, in a race to 5, losing 14 of the 16 lags is not going to work.

On a side note, I felt sorry for Cory Deuell, he had to play with his break cue as he couldn't get his player re-tipped. Cannot believe you lot would travel without a cue engineer, or at least having made an arrangement prior with some local to carry out any work required.

You need a re-think folks!

Your suggestion about gambling for a week is laughable at best. Maybe the Ryder cup guys should do the same??

 

[Jaden]

I don't understand the Euros pride...

Oh Lord you dork. What is it with you Euros and your need to feel power over America? USA pool don't care about the MC for the most part. What you don't understand is that in America there are no career opportunities or sponsorship opportunities that can be realized from the visibility one receives from playing in the MC. The only Americans who care about the MC are the 5 players who get paid and the coach that particular year. That should be evident after seeing the (3) unpicked hopefuls decide to stay home. In America pool is an underground game now. Nothing more, nothing less. We don't even have darts or Snuuuker on TV either. It's a league sport with a small cult following. So the majority of the fans who show up once a year in Vegas likely have little or no dedicated interest in pool. It was just something to do while on vacation in Vegas. Just like seeing a Celine Dion show. So these vacationers aren't going to ever act the way the Brit fans do. Hell, there are probably more Euro fans who attend in Vegas.

Honestly, I'm not sure why I'm butting heads with you trying to explains things that you will never consider. Only thing you will cling onto is how prestigious and righteous a Euro victory is over America.

Carry on Sir...

I don't understand the Euros pride...

Their best players are living and competing against Americans so that they can compete...lol...

Jaden

 

[Hungarian]

Well kiss my ass then. And screw Europe. No more Natural Gas for you. You've depleted all your natural resources and now you damn sure rely on the USA and the rest of the world for that. We will only sell you coal from here on out.

I am talking about when they actually stopped and made a statement to the audience about keeping quiet while players were shooting. There were a lot of simple "quiet please" moments. The crowd were far from raucous though, I reckon they were better behaved than at the York Hall 2 years ago.

Last year in Vegas, the home crowd didn't have much to cheer about, maybe next time eh

I hardly see a noisy crowd upsetting the European team though, these guys thrive under pressure.

 

[Bigdogbret]

This thread about which rules should be enforced and which we should let go in the name of "sportsmanship" is a large part in what holds this sport back. I hear people all the time say, "I wish pool was more like golf." Well, if it was, most pro players would never make it to the end as many cannot fill out a score sheet correctly. Also, many "agree" to bend the rules like not pocketing the game ball and call it sportsmanship. Good sportsmanship is following the rules, whether you agree with them or not. Tiger, Phil, and Rory cannot concede 2 foot putts in tournament play on the PGA. For pool to really grow it needs to appeal to the masses, not just other pool players. The little old lady sitting in her living room isn't going to understand why Player A did not pocket the 9 ball, but still won the game.
Let's stop making excuses for players who break the rules and let it go in the interest of sportsmanship. When gambling, it is fine. During tournaments, follow the rules!

 

[Hungarian]

For the Euros tossing the cue on the table in joy of winning is just another way for them to ham it up and shine for the camera. It's cheeky European showboating!! It's acting.

But look when JHall or Bergman won, they just did a routine fist pump, shook hands and moved on. Jumping on the table is disrespectful. It would have been hilarious if the table came crashing down when they all jumped up there.

This thread about which rules should be enforced and which we should let go in the name of "sportsmanship" is a large part in what holds this sport back. I hear people all the time say, "I wish pool was more like golf." Well, if it was, most pro players would never make it to the end as many cannot fill out a score sheet correctly. Also, many "agree" to bend the rules like not pocketing the game ball and call it sportsmanship. Good sportsmanship is following the rules, whether you agree with them or not. Tiger, Phil, and Rory cannot concede 2 foot putts in tournament play on the PGA. For pool to really grow it needs to appeal to the masses, not just other pool players. The little old lady sitting in her living room isn't going to understand why Player A did not pocket the 9 ball, but still won the game.
Let's stop making excuses for players who break the rules and let it go in the interest of sportsmanship. When gambling, it is fine. During tournaments, follow the rules!

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

I don't think so. I think it's better for the player to know and play by the rules. Sadly the players are mostly as stupid as stumps when it comes to the rules.

I agree. As awkward as it might have been for the ref to let that CB hit Feijen's stick and then call a foul on it, it would be in the best interest of the sport to adhere to the letter of the law in these cases. What other professional sport allows "occasional, discretionary, bending of the rule"?

There is no doubt in my mind that Niel's knew that CB would never threaten a pocket even before he took his stroke. All he knew was that he might miss the pocket with the 9. He didn't miss, and in his excitement dropped his stick on the table, forgetting for a moment that the game ain't over until the last ball stops rolling.

Such lapses in judgment are certainly unfortunate, but the player must always be held accountable for them, at least at this level of play. I can't fault Niels for being absent-minded, but I certainly do blame the ref for interfering with a certain foul.

 

[itsfroze]

=============

 

[BRussell]

I agree. As awkward as it might have been for the ref to let that CB hit Feijen's stick and then call a foul on it, it would be in the best interest of the sport to adhere to the letter of the law in these cases. What other professional sport allows "occasional, discretionary, bending of the rule"?

To me it seems analogous to the winning team throwing the basketball in the air right before the buzzer goes off, and the fans running onto the court. Technically they may have lost the ball, and the crowd shouldn't be there, but since there's no way the other team could have gotten the ball and scored in 0.5 sec., they let it go.

 

[sjm]

I agree. As awkward as it might have been for the ref to let that CB hit Feijen's stick and then call a foul on it, it would be in the best interest of the sport to adhere to the letter of the law in these cases. What other professional sport allows "occasional, discretionary, bending of the rule"?
.

Baseball.

In the case of a game winning homer, the player hitting the home run is invariably mobbed by his teammates before he reaches home plate. I recall an interview in which a player admitted to not having touched the plate after a game winning home run. Would you put such a game under protest after seeing a replay? I hope not, because moments like these are what sells baseball to the fans.

Football.

On a few occasions, I have seen the field mobbed after a game winning touchdown, and a few times, I've seen the referees deicide that the extra point try should be forgone, bending the rule in the name of allowing a celebration that most viewers love.

 

[Kid Dynomite]

On a side note, I felt sorry for Cory Deuell, he had to play with his break cue as he couldn't get his player re-tipped. Cannot believe you lot would travel without a cue engineer, or at least having made an arrangement prior with some local to carry out any work required.

this is Corey's mistake in my opinion. You do not travel with out a back up cue or shaft you are comfortable with. Period!

Playing 2 balls worse with a break cue is unacceptable. More unacceptable is the fact that none of the team member bothered to loan Corey their cue to shot with or one in their case!

With 10k extra on the line, I would reach in my case and get him squared away immediately. 5 man team and they could not figure something out better than a break cue??? LOL

KD