Mosconi on aiming .

Well John, I have had enough...We now have an APA player, at best probably a 4 or 5, who is now making crucial shots, (for $3000 no less)...who thinks he does it all, with an infalable "aiming system"...I'm sorry John, but I have played, probably 100 times more high $$$ matches than you, and I readily admit to having dogged a few balls, in various situations. (just using stupid "feel" of course)

Your experience, as near as I can tell, has been against other APA 3's, who just happen to have disposable cash...Whereas, mine have been against the likes of, (in their primes)... Ronnie Allen,(with 9/8)... Richie Florence, U.J. Puckett, Ed Kelly, Cliff Joyner, Jack Cooney, Buddy Hall, Grady Matthews, Billy Stroud, Weenie Beanie, (all of them even)..and a host of other very formidable opponents.... all of this easily verifiable, many of them in various books they have written about pool's greatest era.

I don't need, or seek, the accolades, As I am secure in my own skin, and have my memories, of those great times....I just don't need your very small and bitter resentment. (or is it envy ?)

For you to come on here and say, that you made ANY tough shot , for $3000 dollars, against ANYBODY...Is hard to believe, for anyone with half a brain...So I guess I may be calling you a 'fibber'..;)

Were your opponents, you so vanquished and destroyed,... Myron Gordfump, a drunk Xiang Flash, Joe Leagueplayer, or Orphan Annie ? There is a difference you know, when your opponent can retaliate, with more than a miscue..:rolleyes:

Until such time, as you can come to realize, that you have reached the pinnacle of your [sic] carreer...Please do not try to belittle my accomplishments, while grandiizing yours...At your best, I could probably have given you almost any spot you asked for...(aiming systems and all) and won all the cash you would hold still for.

With that parting gesture, I shall bid you adieu,...And hope I don' have to endure any more of your fanatical, overblown, ultra egotistical, and inane Bulls**t...It just ain't no fun any more..:(

I shall leave you with this parting reminder, which I hope will sear into your brain, forever...I know you will not heed the words of this wise man...but you should try, for your own salvation.

"A fool may go unnoticed, until he opens his mouth and removes all doubt,"...Mark Twain

Sincerely,

Dick Mc Morran

PS..I should have made this an 'open letter', and started a new thread, but I can always link to it, unless it is too hard for you to take,...and you have it removed when you get uncomfortable..:ignore:...Thankfully, at One Pocket. org, we have a complete archive of past posts and threads...I can't think of a post ever being stricken. It may be moved to the 'Member's Only' forum, but it remains there for all to reflect on...It's called a 'paper trail' wherein all the stupidity, name calling, and vulgarity, can come back to bite you...It tends to slow the 'diarhera of the mouth' syndrome, which seems to be very prevalent here, at times...Works great...(been caught a few times myself, while spouting off drunk..:p)
 
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JB Cases said:
......

Now if you can find a quote by any great thinker that advocates a narrow minded, don't-try-anything-new, approach to life I would like to see it.
Click to expand...

Here are two great thinkers:

Guiding Life Principle No. 5 (most often used when faced with a nagging wife and an unfamiliar household repair):
Never do anything for the first time.
-- Rich Klein

Guiding Life Principle No. 1:
A man's GOT to know his limitations!
-- Clint Eastwood (as Dirty Harry Callahan)
 
SJDinPHX said:
Well John, I have had enough...We now have an APA player, at best probably a 4 or 5, who is now making crucial shots, (for $3000 no less)...who thinks he does it with an infalable "aiming system"...I'm sorry John, but I have played, probably 100 times more high $$$ matches than you, and I readily admit to having dogged a few balls, in various situations. (just using stupid "feel" of course)

Your experience, as near as I can tell, has been against other APA 3's, who just happen to have disposable cash...Whereas, mine have been against the likes of, (in their primes)... Ronnie Allen,(with 9/8)... Richie Florence, U,J Puckett, Ed Kelly, Cliff Joyner, Jack Cooney, Buddy Hall, Billy Stroud, Weenie Beanie, (all of them even)..and a host of other very formidable opponents.... all easily verifiable. I don't need the accolades, I just don't need your bitter resentment. (or is it envy ?)

For you to come on here and say, that you made ANY tough shot , for $3000 dollars, against ANYBODY...Is hard to believe, for anyone with half a brain...So I guess I may be calling you a 'fibber'..;)

Were your opponents, you so vanquished and destroyed,... Myron Gordfump, a drunk Xiang Flash, Joe Leagueplayer, or Orphan Annie ? There is a difference you know, when your opponent can retaliate, with more than a miscue..:rolleyes:

Until such time, as you can come to realize, that you have reached the pinnacle of your [sic] carreer...Please do not try to belittle my accomplishments, while grandiizing yours...At your best, I could probably have given you almost any spot you asked for...(aiming systems and all) and won all the cash you would hold still for.

With that parting gesture, I shall bid you adieu,...And hope I don' have to endure any more of your fanatical, overblown, ultra egotistical, and inane Bulls**t...It just ain't no fun any more..:(

I shall leave you with this parting reminder, which I hope will sear into your brain, forever...I know you will not heed the words of this wise man...but you should try, for your own salvation.

"A fool may go unnoticed, until he opens his mouth and removes all doubt,"...Mark Twain

Sincerely,

Dick Mc Morran

PS..I should have made this an 'open letter', and started a new thread, but I can always link to it, unless it is too hard for you to take,...and you have it removed when you get uncomfortable..:ignore:
Click to expand...

Well good riddance then. Btw I talked about the very match on here earlier this year. I won 18,000 RMB which was about $2800. So I took a little literary license with the amount...... And the aiming system did help me to come with crucial shots, especially in the last game where I had to cinch the 8 from a tough position and take a reverse cross-side bank on the nine.

FWIW I was ranked a 7 in 8-ball and a 9 in 9 Ball in the APA which is as high as it goes.

At your best you could not have given me the spot an APA 3 should get and expect to go home in anything but your underwear.

The thing is that I don't doubt you were a top player. Good for you and SO WHAT?

Do I care what you think about how to play pool? According to you people like me will never be great so why bother. I mean you just told us that you would advise someone to quit pool and take up another hobby if they weren't champion material. So why should I care what you think since my goal is not to become a champion pool player.

Do you HONESTLY think that any "aiming system" is going to PREVENT someone from becoming a champion if they have all the other ingredients to become one?

But beside that the thing is that you have no clue about me and how I play and how I have gambled in my life. For my skill level I have bet enough to raise my blood pressure many times and there are many people on this forum who know that. Nor do you know who I know and who has been influential on my game.

So run along and drown yourself in boozy memories of how great (without titles) you used to be. Console yourself that you hung up your cue and chose to get a job. That was your choice, maybe because you were not good enough to make enough money to survive, I don't know. We all know how tough it is for a pro pool player. I can't belittle your accomplishments because you have none on record. What? You beat a few people in money games? Big deal. People beat each other all the time. IIRC Surfer Rod didn't remember getting beat the way you have told it. Maybe your memory isn't quite as good as you think it is. If you have some trophies to show us how you bested the best in tournaments then I'd be glad to see them. As far as I know you never took down any national title and stories of you matching up against top players are very sparse. Even Don Willis gets more ink than you do and he reported only entered a few tournaments in his life.

All I care about is that you keep your nonsense to yourself. You aren't saving the bangers of the world with your "advice". You aren't doing current professionals any favors by calling them liars on public forums.

Your one little tidbit of advice to work on basics is right on and coincidentally exactly the same thing that every instructor says no matter what their level is. So thanks for stating the obvious.

So goodbye. Hopefully you can stick to your word and stay out of these threads. I am sure you can't since you went out of your way to try and make sure I responded to your taunts.

And don't forget my offer to play any living player one pocket with the spot that an APA 3 should get. You can get yourself a surrogate player and come up with a spot and I will play and bet high enough to make it worthwhile. If you coach them and we have an agreement that the MUST shoot the shots you tell them to I will give up a ball off the spot an APA 3 should get.
 
PoolSharkAllen said:
This thread is yet another example of JB hijacking every single thread on aiming and turning it into a train wreck.
Click to expand...

Sorry, I was invited. Talk to SJD on that one. He went out of his way to get me here. Practically sent me a limo to pick me up. Only it didn't work out for him as he got busted as he usually does.
 
JB Cases said:
Sorry, I was invited. Talk to SJD on that one. He went out of his way to get me here. Practically sent me a limo to pick me up. Only it didn't work out for him as he got busted as he usually does.
Click to expand...

John, You may have missed a few pertinent edits on my last post. I am sure a 150 wpm typist like you (you hafta be) can uderstand how a 5 WPM guy like me can get distracted...I do admire your sentence structure, and your spelling is exemplory...Its the idiotic and repetative words you put together that REALLY, REALLY, REALLY, REALLY, REALLY need major repair.

I know you've heard, that an ape, given enough time, could hammer out a Shakesperian play...I am laying 8 to 5, he could hammer out one of your verbose, extremely boring posts in...oh say, 30 mnutes..:thumbup:

G'nite John...You'll be smarter in the morning..;) (7 billion to one, on that)
 
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PoolSharkAllen said:
Funny how I interpreted Bob's Jewett's response differently than you did. :rolleyes:

Bob did hit the nail on the head that one should try to do their own research and not depend on the opinions of so-called "experts" who are often wrong. So people like JB who have openly admitted to being biased and to not being an expert on aiming systems, are probably the least qualified people to be advising other people on aiming systems.

On the other hand, people like Dr. Dave are extremely knowledgeable about various aiming systems and should be considered experts on the subject. These are the people who's opinions I respect and value. So if Dr. Dave has researched a particular aiming system and has doubts about it, then I will tend to give that a lot of weight.
Click to expand...

I never claimed to be an expert on any aiming system, not even Ghost Ball.

All I have ever done is tell people that the ones I learned work for me.

Why are you so concerned about which expert is the most credible anyway?

No one teaches pool using advanced geometry and trigonometry.

When pool is taught it's look here, do this, try that......and so on. Why do you care so much about whether Dr. Dave or Randy Goetlicher is right about what's worth exploring?

You claim to want to learn so get to it.

Here are your choices:

1. Trial and Error
2. Ghost Ball
3. Hal Houle's methods
4. Ron Vitello's 90/90
5. Light Reflections
6. SEE System
7. Covering Methods (Joe Davis Way)
8. Back of the Ball (Contact Point)
9. Joe Tucker's By the Numbers
10. S.A.M (modified Hal Houle systems)
11. ProOne (Modified Hal Houle system)

So all this time on these forums you have read through all the threads and by now you should have been able to figure out what you want to use as your basis for learning how to aim presuming you don't already know how to aim.

So when you say I am hijacking then I have to ask what hell you are doing?

Seems to ME that you are spending your time trying to DISCREDIT people. For what purpose?

You would think that you would have already figured out that it's not going to work. There is no right and wrong or black and white on this issue. There is only try or don't try. I am in the try camp and you are in the don't try camp. Unlike you I have tried just about every system up there and distilled my approach into what works for me and don't use the rest. What have you tried?

So maybe you should look at your own "leading questions" and own the fact that you are the hijacker.
 
SJDinPHX said:
John, You may have missed a few pertinent edits on my last post. I am sure a 150 wpm typist like you (you hafta be) can uderstand how a 5 WPM guy like me can get distracted...I do admire your sentence structure, and your spelling is exemplory...Its the idiotic and repetative words you put together that REALLY, REALLY, REALLY, REALLY, REALLY need major repair.

I know you've heard, that an ape, given enough time, could hammer out a Shakesperian play...I am laying 8 to 5, he could hammer out one of your verbose, extremely boring posts in...oh say, 30 mnutes..:thumbup:

G'nite John...You'll be smarter in the morning..;) (7 billion to one, on that)
Click to expand...

You're still here. Yes I understand how you can be easily distracted. At 77 with a living-in-the-past attitude I can see how you would not be sharp enough to embrace all the new things the modern world has to offer. Would that we were in a simpler time where you could go to the pool room and have all the bangers hanging on every word about the glory days when you trapped Weenie Beenie........and they couldn't run to the internet and find out that you actually were not the great player you say you were.

Where are all the stories about you did against Beenie and Lassiter and Buddy and all the players you claim you played? Are they at one pocket.org? I didn't see them there. I don't see them here. No one else is telling them. For some reason you seem like the lost Beatle no one ever heard about.
 
JB Cases said:
You're still here. Yes I understand how you can be easily distracted. At 77 with a living-in-the-past attitude I can see how you would not be sharp enough to embrace all the new things the modern world has to offer. Would that we were in a simpler time where you could go to the pool room and have all the bangers hanging on every word about the glory days when you trapped Weenie Beenie........and they couldn't run to the internet and find out that you actually were not the great player you say you were.

Where are all the stories about you did against Beenie and Lassiter and Buddy and all the players you claim you played? Are they at one pocket.org? I didn't see them there. I don't see them here. No one else is telling them. For some reason you seem like the lost Beatle no one ever heard about.
Click to expand...

I shall generously give you, one last chance to eat your words (you must just love the taste of them, by now)...If you had actually read any of my posts (other than the part that pertained to you) You would have known most of this, and,.. I would not be obliged to brag, and cram it down your throat.

I have been mentioned (favorably, I might add) in almost every pool book ever written..From Grady's "Bet High and Kiss Low" to Buddy's "Rags to Rifleman" to Eddie Robbins one pocket bible, "Shots, Moves and Strategies". The latter, I happen to have more picture's and pages, devoted to me, than any other player in the book. Under one of those stories, is the neatest compliments on my game, I have ever recieved, from my good friend "Jersey Red" (Jack Breit)..You may have heard of him ?... I don't say this to promote myself to you, and yes I AM an old man, with only memories. But they are of a time that YOU, with all your passion for pool, can only dream about.

In '98 at one of Grady's Legends tournaments, In my one and only AccuStat appearance, I managed a come from behind win (down 3 to 1, in a race to 4) against Cliff Joyner, who was then in his prime. I was 64...No biggie, just a tournament race. But I sure wasn't used to all those lights, cameras, and spectator's... He probably, at the time, could have given me a few balls for the cash, but it did wonders for my morale for a few years.

So maybe your reason for not knowing me that well, could be from spending all your time reading "Aiming Systems for Dummie's"...;)

Tounaments and Trophies, which seems to be your criteria, were never my bag, I played in about 3 or 4 majors, in my entire life. Two of them after I retired..In my day, there was not enough money to make it worth my while..I did attend a few, just for the back room action only..Didn't even play

I did quit pool, and walked the straight and narrow, for 20 years. This turned out to be the most active time ever, for action, and tournaments. ('73 to '93) There was no way I could have known that was coming, but I made that decision for someone very special to me, and I have never regretted it, to this day... I lost one family to that lifestyle..And I was not going to make the same mistake again.

Concidently, the 1988 $20,000 match between Ronnie Allen and Danny Deliberto, took place at the Golden Eight Ball, less than a mile from the UPS terminal I worked at...I was completely oblivious to it, did not even know that huge, fairly new pool room was there. It used to be an appliance store... I'm sure had I known, I would have had to stop in and say hi, to RA, Beanie, Puckett, and all the old crowd...Thats how far I was removed from pool in those years. Never even stepped in a joint, in the whole town.

When I retired from UPS, I was 60 years old, and I scraped the rust off and became competetive at one pocket again, Not quite up to par, but where I was very able to hang with the best of my generation, and a whole slew, much younger. I was very happy with my game, but never hit the road again, and became the Phoenix home guard, for the next 12-14 years. My health, and other issues, caused me to hang it up a few years ago, and yes, I do miss it. As Lou said, I was nominated, for the one pocket HOF, the last few years, and was at, or near the top of the polls, both years, when I recused myself, in order to let the guys who had stayed in the " trenches" all the years I was on hiatus, and also had done much more than me, to promote the Game, have their dues. So much for modesty, but thats the way I really felt. I voted for Allen Hopkins, (last years inductee), and Parika the year before.

So anyway, after the best 36 years of my life, I lost that "very special person" last year.So you are correct, (for once)..All I have is the past, an old dog that I dearly love, and this computer to try and relive a time when I could still draw my ball.

I am NOT baring my soul to you John, all my old crony's at 1P.org knows what has transpired these last few years, in my life...I would just like to also share it with some of the good folks here at AZB...And I know there are a lot of good ones...Smorgy (Doug) and I, became fast friends as he drifted away, and I still miss him...I think JoeyA would attest to that.

Thats enough of my bio, granted, with a LOT of blank spaces...I'm about ready to call it a night (for sure this time)...Just know I don't hate you John, but I do have to defend myself from all the insults you fire at me. Maybe that doesn't excuse the ones I fire at you..but it sure makes me feel better for it. Its a chicken and egg thing, whether you want to admit it or not...If we had "archives" we could find out who cast the first stone. But then, I don't bruise as easily as you..:p

Sincerely

Dick Mc Morran
 
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SJDinPHX said:
I shall generously give you, one last chance to eat your words (you must just love the taste of them, by now)...If you had actually read any of my posts (other than the part that pertained to you) You would have known most of this, and,.. I would not be obliged to brag, and cram it down your throat.

I have been mentioned (favorably, I might add) in almost every pool book ever written..From Grady's "Bet High and Kiss Low" to Buddy's "Rags to Rifleman" to Eddie Robbins one pocket bible, "Shots, Moves and Strategies". The latter, I happen to have more picture's and pages, devoted to me, than any other player in the book. Under one of those stories, is the neatest compliments on my game, I have ever recieved, from my good friend "Jersey Red" (Jack Breit)..You may have heard of him ?... I don't say this to promote myself to you, and yes I AM an old man, with only memories. But they are of a time that YOU, with all your passion for pool, can only dream about.

In '98 at one of Grady's Legends tournaments, In my one and only AccuStat appearance, I managed a come from behind win (down 3 to 1, in a race to 4) against Cliff Joyner, who was then in his prime. I was 64...No biggie, just a tournament race. But I sure wasn't used to all those lights, cameras, and spectator's... He probably, at the time, could have given me a few balls for the cash, but it did wonders for my morale for a few years.

So maybe your reason for not knowing me that well, could be from spending all your time reading "Aiming Systems for Dummie's"...;)

Tounaments and Trophies, which seems to be your criteria, were never my bag, I played in about 3 or 4 majors, in my entire life. Two of them after I retired..In my day, there was not enough money to make it worth my while..I did attend a few, just for the back room action only..Didn't even play

I did quit pool, and walked the straight and narrow, for 20 years. This turned out to be the most active time ever, for action, and tournaments. ('73 to '93) There was no way I could have known that was coming, but I made that decision for someone very special to me, and I have never regretted it, to this day... I lost one family to that lifestyle..And I was not going to make the same mistake again

When I retired from UPS, I was 60 years old, and I scraped the rust off and became competetive at one pocket again, Not quite up to par, but where I was very able to hang with the best of my generation, and a whole slew, much younger. I was very happy with my game, but never hit the road again, and became the Phoenix home guard, for the next 12-14 years. My health, and other issues, caused me to hang it up a few years ago, and yes, I do miss it. As Lou said, I was nominated, for the one pocket HOF, the last few years, and was at, or near the top of the polls, both years, when I recused myself, in order to let the guys who had stayed in the " trenches" all the years I was on hiatus, and also had done much more than me, to promote the Game, have their dues. So much for modesty, but thats the way I really felt. I voted for Allen Hopkins, (last years inductee), and Parika the year before.

So anyway, after the best 36 years of my life, I lost that "very special person" last year.So you are correct, (for once)..All I have is the past, an old dog that I dearly love, and this computer to try and relive a time when I could still draw my ball.

I am NOT baring my soul to you John, all my old crony's at 1P.org knows what has transpired these last few years, in my life...I would just like to also share it with some of the good folks here at AZB...And I know there are a lot of good ones...Smorgy (Doug) and I, became fast friends as he drifted away, and I still miss him...I think JoeyA would attest to that.

Thats enough of my bio, granted, with a LOT of blank spaces...I'm about ready to call it a night (for sure this time)...Just know I don't hate you John, but I do have to defend myself from all the insults you fire at me. Maybe that doesn't excuse the ones I fire at you..but it sure makes them feel better.

Sincerely

Dick Mc Morran
Click to expand...

What is funny is that you really think I don't know all this. I am one of the bangers who consumes all the books where you are mentioned. Without bangers like me there wouldn't be any need to write the books.

And that's the part you FAIL to understand. Without players who are my speed there is no billiard industry. There is no place to sell books which mentions you favorably.

So again without players like me there are no players like you. We are the ones who keep pool rooms open, we are the ones who keep cue makers in business, we are the ones who pay for lessons from players like you, who buy DVDs by people like Scott Frost and aiming system DVDs endorsed by people like Darren Appleton.

So you were a great player. It certainly does not give you the right to come on an open forum and start belittling the bangers like me who keep the lights on. That's right Dick, without all the "bangers" this forum would not exist.

Let people have their "aiming for dummies" books and leave them alone. Tell your stories and get lots of praise. I am one of the people who would even pay to hear your stories if you ever got off your ass and wrote them down. Or better yet why don't you let Lenny interview you and edit a DVD with SJD's road stories. I am a buyer even though I think you are being a real jerk to me for no good reason.

Now, maybe, just maybe you can see it from the banger's perspective.
 
lfigueroa said:
dr_dave said:
Backhand English (BHE) is a technique for compensating for squirt when using English. It assumes the center-ball aim has already been determined. In typical "aiming system" threads, the phrase "aiming system" usually refers to a method or procedure that can be used to aim basic center-ball cut shots. Many example "aiming systems" can be found here:

However, there are many "systems" that help people aim kick and bank shots, determine CB direction for position control, compensate for squirt, swerve, and throw, etc. All of these "systems" can help people determine required lines of aim for different types of shots, but they are not the types of "aiming systems" usually debated in these threads.
Click to expand...

So... if someone says Efren is using a "system," vice technique, maybe that is not so accurate?
Click to expand...
Based on my definition of "system," I don't think Efren uses any systems whatsoever. His intuition and feel are so strong from so many years of countless hours of practice and successful experience (plus a little natural talent), he can judge everything he needs to judge without relying on an explicit system. He can just "see" the necessary line for the shot that takes everything (squirt, swerve, throw, rebound angles, speed, conditions, etc.) into account without really thinking about it too much. Now, most mere "mortals" cannot do this. For these people, "systems" can help on some (if not many) shots.

Regards,
Dave
 
JB Cases said:
And this is a travesty.

I think that the BCA Instructors, at least the Master Instructors, as a body should get together and approve methods of instruction. If the majority agree that a certain method is useful, easy to teach, geometrically viable on some level, etc..... then it gets the BCA seal of approval. This doesn't mean that BCA instructors can't teach methods that are not in the BCA Approved list. But it does mean that prospective buyers of DVDs and lessons can look at the methods being offered and see whether they are approved or not. With approval being defined as "found to be useful by the majority of Master instructors".

After all, if an aiming system is being packaged and sold like a product then it ought to be treated like a product. A jump cue has to conform to the BCA and WPA rules if it is to be used in those tournaments so there is not any reason why there can't be accepted teaching methods and physical principles that are also BCA Instructor Approved.

And this does not mean that what's not on the approved list has no merit either. It merely serves as a way to inform the public that the things ON the approved list have at least been talked about. That said I wouldn't even be opposed to having a list of methods that applied for BCA approval and failed to get it as long as the reasons were given so that the applicant could work on the method and reapply.

I don't believe that these methods are snake oil. But as long as they live outside the realm of official examination by the highest order of professional instruction we have then they will always be considered as such by a percentage of the pool playing public.

To me nothing could be better than have the country's top instructors trying diligently to understand your aiming system and find out it's strengths and weaknesses. If it passes their examination then you have a super strong accreditation. Then if you get professionals who endorse it with honest use all the better.
Click to expand...

Well said John.

This is why I asked Bob the question. I had a feeling this was going to be the answer and I think I have a good idea why they don't do as you propose. I'm guessing this would cause quite a bit of dissention and it could lead to a split - the likes of which we haven't seen since the Reformation:shocked2:
 
JB Cases said:
And yet Willie Hoppe signed off on it?
Click to expand...


Can you imagine? A classy multi-world champion kind of guy -- like the immortal Willie Hoppe, the greatest 3C player of his era -- *endorsing a system he didn't develop or use?*

Heres the pertinent passage:

#####
“In Hoppe’s book on how to play billiards is a long section on the diamond system, charts showing how to count the spots on the rails and figure out where to aim by using arithmetic. Now that is a joke, because he was not a system player. I went out to Navy Pier one morning during the 1950 tournament to practice and there was Hoppe all alone in the hall. He had the book open and was shooting shots from the diagrams... trying out the system. He looked up at me and said, “You know, Dan, it works. But you need a perfect stroke.’

Those charts were put in the book by Bryon Schoeman and a lot of them are haywire. Sometimes one of my students will show me the book and say, ‘Look at this McGoorty. Hoppe says you can hit the rail here and end up there.’

‘My boy,’ I say, ‘it can’t be done. Those charts are just pretty pictures.’

Not only did Hoppe not use the diamond system, he had nothing to do with developing it. That was done by Copulus, Layton, and Clarence Jackson.

Guys like Hoppe, Cochran, and Schaefer, they knew the table so well, all the angles, all the returns, they didn’t need to use any system. They could get four out of two by elevating the cue alittle and putting a touch of masse on the ball. The system? What system? f*ck the system.’”
#####

Lou Figueroa
 
lfigueroa said:
Can you imagine? A classy multi-world champion kind of guy -- like the immortal Willie Hoppe, the greatest 3C player of his era -- *endorsing a system he didn't develop or use?*

Heres the pertinent passage:

#####
“In Hoppe’s book on how to play billiards is a long section on the diamond system, charts showing how to count the spots on the rails and figure out where to aim by using arithmetic. Now that is a joke, because he was not a system player. I went out to Navy Pier one morning during the 1950 tournament to practice and there was Hoppe all alone in the hall. He had the book open and was shooting shots from the diagrams... trying out the system. He looked up at me and said, “You know, Dan, it works. But you need a perfect stroke.’

Those charts were put in the book by Bryon Schoeman and a lot of them are haywire. Sometimes one of my students will show me the book and say, ‘Look at this McGoorty. Hoppe says you can hit the rail here and end up there.’

‘My boy,’ I say, ‘it can’t be done. Those charts are just pretty pictures.’

Not only did Hoppe not use the diamond system, he had nothing to do with developing it. That was done by Copulus, Layton, and Clarence Jackson.

Guys like Hoppe, Cochran, and Schaefer, they knew the table so well, all the angles, all the returns, they didn’t need to use any system. They could get four out of two by elevating the cue alittle and putting a touch of masse on the ball. The system? What system? f*ck the system.’”
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Lou Figueroa
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I can imagine it. Can you understand that the passage you quote is hearsay from a guy who was a bum for a lot of his own "career"? And in any case you can't exactly ask Hoppe can you? McGoorty said a lot of things......you of all people should not be seeking to to pick and choose what you "believe" from pool player's mouths.

BUT, as luck would have it you can ask Darren Appleton if he uses he system he endorses. And you can ask Stevie Moore the same question.

Darren and Stevie have both answered in the affirmative in public. But they are alive and willing to take your questions. Both have websites and are on Facebook and Darren is an active member of this forum.
 
lfigueroa said:
Dooming them to failure.

Lou Figueroa
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I wonder how doomed Stan, Landon, Stevie, C.J. or Darren, would be if they played you? They all rely on their aiming systems quite heavily.

Let me know and I'll set it up.
 
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JB Cases said:
I can imagine it. Can you understand that the passage you quote is hearsay from a guy who was a bum for a lot of his own "career"? And in any case you can't exactly ask Hoppe can you? McGoorty said a lot of things......you of all people should not be seeking to to pick and choose what you "believe" from pool player's mouths.

BUT, as luck would have it you can ask Darren Appleton if he uses he system he endorses. And you can ask Stevie Moore the same question.

Darren and Stevie have both answered in the affirmative in public. But they are alive and willing to take your questions. Both have websites and are on Facebook and Darren is an active member of this forum.
Click to expand...

Fast forward to 2015...

Darren Appleton signs a lucrative endorsement contract with Coca-Cola (hey when I dream, I dream big). Unfortunately, the contract is quickly voided when constant pestering on an internet forum causes Mr. Appleton to publicly admit that he does indeed drink a Pepsi from time to time.
 
JB Cases said:
I can imagine it. Can you understand that the passage you quote is hearsay from a guy who was a bum for a lot of his own "career"? And in any case you can't exactly ask Hoppe can you? McGoorty said a lot of things......you of all people should not be seeking to to pick and choose what you "believe" from pool player's mouths.

BUT, as luck would have it you can ask Darren Appleton if he uses he system he endorses. And you can ask Stevie Moore the same question.

Darren and Stevie have both answered in the affirmative in public. But they are alive and willing to take your questions. Both have websites and are on Facebook and Darren is an active member of this forum.
Click to expand...


If absolutely nothing else jumps off the pages of that book it is how brutally honest McGoorty was about his life, other players, and himself. Who knows how Hoppe might have answered if a perspective buyer of his book went up to him and asked, "Mr. Hoppe, do you use the systems in your book?"

Certainly we've all heard the stories of a world champion player bad mouthing the cue they've endorsed for years, to a bleacher full of fans. And if you believe that every celebrity who endorses a product actually uses it, you are living in la-la land, to put it politely.

Anyways, I'm good with it :-)

Lou Figueroa
 
BasementDweller said:
Fast forward to 2015...

Darren Appleton signs a lucrative endorsement contract with Coca-Cola (hey when I dream, I dream big). Unfortunately, the contract is quickly voided when constant pestering on an internet forum causes Mr. Appleton to publicly admit that he does indeed drink a Pepsi from time to time.
Click to expand...

Or: Alternative Scene - Darren gets a huge contract with Coke and the pool fans around the world rejoice and swear to buy only Coke. Darren is asked repeatedly if he really drinks Coke and he says yes without hesitation.

But then someone comes out and says "I know Darren and he doesn't drink Coke" - Darren loses his contract, no more Coke money..... :-( sad Darren.
 
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