Mosconni Cup needs a major change to stay relevant.

skogstokig said:
thanks for the input. i agree on that in general it should be based on merit. and 3 of 5 spots are directly from the rankings. but then it becomes trickier, because JJ (and alex) is also supposed to field the team with the highest potential to win, rather than rewarding high attendance. for the euros that means in my opinion picking gorst over szolnoki or zielinski.

going strictly by rankings, as it stands right now, that means shane wolford and greg hogue for the US side. not very strong fargorates and both would be mosconi rookies.
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Gorst is a category unto himself. He was banned from WPA events, so he didn't have the opportunity to compete on Matchroom's Tour. He's clearly one of the best two players in the world right now and if he's not selected, I will interpret it as evidencing a strong anti-Russian sentiment, and haven't we had enough of that in pro pool this year? In the one chance Gorst had to compete with all the elite pros in 2022, he won Master of the Table at Derby City. Further, he leads the money list in 2022. Frankly, I'd favor him against anyone not named Filler.

I don't agree with the statement that JJ and Alex are expected to field the team that is most likely to win. No doubt, the wild cards offer the coaches some wriggle room, but Shane Wolford, who I think is just 21, would be a great choice, despite the fact that he may or may not be ready for such a big moment. Yes, coaches have to look at winning now, but they also have to set the stage for possible success in the future. That's how Johan justified the unexpected Tyler Styer pick in 2018, and Tyler made Johan look very smart by playing well as Team USA ended its Mosconi drought.
 
sjm said:
Nonetheless, JV, I'm very much with you on the point that filling the team entirely on merit makes sense. If you'd said, fill Team USA based on Matchroom rankings, I'd have been on board with that, but on this occasion, the use of Fargo doesn't make sense.
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Well I'm not so sure honestly. Is it meant to be USA vs Euro for supremacy, or a Matchroom extravaganza...?

If the point is to determine who's the best on a giving year. Then be damned the Matchroom rankings that have been existence for how long...? Get your best on the ice and see what shakes out.

If the point is to showcase stars of the Matchroom rankings grouped by what side of the pond they happen to live on. Then sure let the MR rankings be the means for selection.

Again, it really boils down to what the Mosconi Cup is and what it's meant to be.
 
The_JV said:
Well I'm not so sure honestly. Is it meant to be USA vs Euro for supremacy, or a Matchroom extravaganza...?

If the point is to determine who's the best on a giving year. Then be damned the Matchroom rankings that have been existence for how long...? Get your best on the ice and see what shakes out.

If the point is to showcase stars of the Matchroom rankings grouped by what side of the pond they happen to live on. Then sure let the MR rankings be the means for selection.

Again, it really boils down to what the Mosconi Cup is and what it's meant to be.
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Gotcha. I think the same can be said of all he Matchroom invitationals. They are all, for practical purposes, exhibition events with good prize money. The other three (Premier League Pool, World Pool Masters, and World Cup of Pool) are filled chiefly based on rankings, and I like that, because it encourages, and ultimately rewards, maximum participation and superior play in Matchroom events.

I do think the point at the Mosconi is to showcase those that have had a good year at nine-ball grouped by which side of the pond they live on, but as you suggest, maybe not. If it's for entertainment only and not a means of rewarding the worthiest players in a given year, I'd have five wild cards on each side at the Mosconi.

PS Matchroom rankings began in the middle of 2021.
 
Europe has hundreds of players to choose from that could be eligible for the Mosconi Cup. USA? Less than 10.

Seems like the promotion of American pool by our brethren promoters overseas is not a money maker, and so more effort is placed to showcase events and pro pool players elsewhere. I guess I can't blame anyone for this, though. Everybody that invests money in pool should profit. That's a given. But I'm just making the observation or, shall I say, sharing my opinion. Bye, bye, American pool pie. I wish professional pool much success in Europe and elsewhere It's better than nothing.

Meanwhile, we have quite a few events here in USA that are thriving and offer great opportunities to players of all caliber, e.g., pros, social shooters, weekend warriors, league players, and recreational players. That makes the BCA industry members happy. After all, when you have less than 10 pro players eligible for Mosconi Cup in USA, why put any efforts into promoting professional pool? It's a dead end. It's all about the money, much more so than growing the sport.
 
West Point 1987 said:
Full disclosure, I'm an American retired Army officer...I never played on the Eurotour, but I knew several who did (having spent about 12 years in Europe--Germany, Italy, UK, Greece and Cyprus). I played amateur leagues that fed into the Eurotour at some point through qualifiers, so I ran into players and coaches all the time...the coaches I knew went through a very expensive, extensive training and qualification/certification system that took quite a while to complete. They have levels they work their way through until they reach the top. The BCA system and others here in the U.S. aren't even close.

But as good as they are, the real difference is the willingness of top players to use them throughout their career...I recently saw an interview with Albin Ouschan where he talked about spending several months with a new coach to work on his mechanics to get over a slump. I've personally watched Eurotour players spend hours on one monotonous drill...kind of like Shane doing 10 ball breaks for 6 hours straight. It pays off, but not many American players do it to that level--and despite what we all think, it shows.
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I never hear of someone claiming they are a retired enlisted person on a billiard forum.
 
tableroll said:
Really, what is the point of mentioning one's military (enlisted or officer) on a billiard forum?
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Seemed pretty obvious to me. He was explaining the qualifications and limitations behind his experience/knowledge/opinions so people would know how much weight to give them. Basically he was saying that as a result of being in the service he lived in various places in Europe in for many years which gave him some pretty good exposure to the pool scene but probably not as intimate a knowledge as natives would have. I suppose he could have just said "I was an American who lived all over Europe for a long time..." but people would probably wonder why anyway, plus it just seems more natural to say "I was in the service so I lived all over Europe for a lot of years", plus it does a significantly better job of conveying to people the extent to which he was exposed to/immersed in the culture (a lot, but not quite fully) which is exactly what he was trying to do. You anti military or something? It's almost as if the mention of it caused a knee jerk reaction in you.
 
Maybe the Mosconi Cup
Is like Golf Masters, just a tridition that will continue because it is a tridition.

Bragging rights of being on winning team.
 
I believe significant interest in the sport of billiards to populations beyond our shores results from the fact that so many -- even most -- European and Asian countries freely televise the sport to the homes of all their populations abundantly, and year-round . . . in the forms of live matches and replays of past matches. And unlike the US (for a multitude of reasons) other developed countries everywhere have been increasingly doing this for more than two decades.

This undeniably has influenced a substantial portion of their viewers to take up the game -- thus constantly emerging talented amateurs in these nations. And not least, for savvy business people among the viewers, a sense of profit opportunities in creating pool venues and regional events.

It would be highly useful to read comments/confirmation from Asia- and Europe-based AZBers about this not-frequently-discussed background aspect of so many talented non-US players regularly emerging on the scene and generally dominating pool events.

Arnaldo ~ And of course we all readily acknowledge the follow-up importance of structured coaching regimens to spot and teach talented players.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
 
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The US suffers from a low population density, which makes owning a niche business (I.e. a pool hall) unprofitable. Walk around Europe and you’ll find stores that do nothing but dedicate 500m2 to selling bicycle locks. Those stores can stay in business, because well, you can do that if 500,000 people can walk or ride a bicycle there.

The “Average” American lives in a town or suburb of 25,000 people. In that environment your best bet at playing pool is Sally’s Corner Tavern, which has a bar box stuffed in the corner. Even then, to justify the space the table has to be set for max income per square foot - so you get small tables with large pockets.

The best realistic bet for American pool I think is that continued if reliance on internet retail craters commercial rents on existing strip malls, making a pool halls commercially viable again.
 
Justaneng said:
The US suffers from a low population density, which makes owning a niche business (I.e. a pool hall) unprofitable. Walk around Europe and you’ll find stores that do nothing but dedicate 500m2 to selling bicycle locks. Those stores can stay in business, because well, you can do that if 500,000 people can walk or ride a bicycle there.

The “Average” American lives in a town or suburb of 25,000 people. In that environment your best bet at playing pool is Sally’s Corner Tavern, which has a bar box stuffed in the corner. Even then, to justify the space the table has to be set for max income per square foot - so you get small tables with large pockets.

The best realistic bet for American pool I think is that continued if reliance on internet retail craters commercial rents on existing strip malls, making a pool halls commercially viable again.
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Some good points here, but the US also suffers from enormous minimum wage growth that has made it a lot harder for small businesses in America to be self-sustaining. I'm not arguing for or against the current level of minimum wage, only taking note that growth in that level has made it difficult for small businesses.
 
sjm said:
Some good points here, but the US also suffers from enormous minimum wage growth that has made it a lot harder for small businesses in America to be self-sustaining. I'm not arguing for or against the current level of minimum wage, only taking note that growth in that level has made it difficult for small businesses.
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The high minimum wage has increased prices on everything. So those people who got the minimum wage are back to where they started. Increasing minimum wages is an election ploy only. No benefit to the economy.
 
Any American with a pool table at home can access free high quality instruction from the top pro players or DrDave.

Pool in America will be controlled by the few families that own and operate sustainable pool rooms.

Just because Europe is winning does not mean America is not competing. Euros have the advantage of govt support. America can make it if wealthy people participate in larger numbers.

Cue sports don't attract a large crowd and of that crowd most are not financially able to invest the time or money. The future belongs to the wealthy. Its a produce or perish culture. The perishing of pool rooms and pool players is worse each year in US.
 
sjm said:
Thanks for that. If the loser of the lag doesn't get to shoot in the double hill rack 36% of the time, it's a pretty big deal.
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Losing the lag is a monster in that format

The lag is more important than the break-it could be argued.

Best
Fatboy
 
tableroll said:
Really, what is the point of mentioning one's military (enlisted or officer) on a billiard forum?
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Poolplaya9 said:
Seemed pretty obvious to me. He was explaining the qualifications and limitations behind his experience/knowledge/opinions so people would know how much weight to give them. Basically he was saying that as a result of being in the service he lived in various places in Europe in for many years which gave him some pretty good exposure to the pool scene but probably not as intimate a knowledge as natives would have. I suppose he could have just said "I was an American who lived all over Europe for a long time..." but people would probably wonder why anyway, plus it just seems more natural to say "I was in the service so I lived all over Europe for a lot of years", plus it does a significantly better job of conveying to people the extent to which he was exposed to/immersed in the culture (a lot, but not quite fully) which is exactly what he was trying to do. You anti military or something? It's almost as if the mention of it caused a knee jerk reaction in you.
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You said it. No need for me to say it again.
 
It’s not just pool….

Look up the results for the WSOP Main Event.

I think it’s something like 12 of the last 16 years have been won by a non-American player. I could be off on that number, but we ain’t holding up too good at the poker table either. Why? Lack of online poker?

So goes the Mcup, so goes America…..Sad state of affairs. Our infrastructure is rotting away, kids aren’t being educated, we don’t know what gender we are and wonder why we are losing?

I travel a lot, many countries every year and what I see happening here is just sad. I mean we got it sooooooo good and are wrecking it ourselves with no help from anyone. Sad sad sad.

Fatboy🥲😟
 
justnum said:
Any American with a pool table at home can access free high quality instruction from the top pro players or DrDave.

Pool in America will be controlled by the few families that own and operate sustainable pool rooms.

Just because Europe is winning does not mean America is not competing. Euros have the advantage of govt support. America can make it if wealthy people participate in larger numbers.

Cue sports don't attract a large crowd and of that crowd most are not financially able to invest the time or money. The future belongs to the wealthy. Its a produce or perish culture. The perishing of pool rooms and pool players is worse each year in US.
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What European countries have this govt support?
I'm from the UK where there is nothing to support pool. The amount of pool halls open to people has really gone down hill. There aren't meany left
Look at the Philippines. Guys come from nothing, to make a life. I know price of everything has gone up for everybody.
I didn't realize, it was that bad. Its a shame for the younger generation!!
Surely it will turn around at some point.
 
Cue Alchemist said:
What European countries have this govt support?
I'm from the UK where there is nothing to support pool. The amount of pool halls open to people has really gone down hill. There aren't meany left
Look at the Philippines. Guys come from nothing, to make a life. I know price of everything has gone up for everybody.
I didn't realize, it was that bad. Its a shame for the younger generation!!
Surely it will turn around at some point.
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Thanks for posting this I have to verify my sources more.
 
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