Most common positional shots in rotation games, that require extreme side?

Oikawa

Oikawa

Well-known member
I'm having a hard time figuring out which are some of the most common types of situations in rotation games where you need more than 1 tip of side to play position to the next ball. I can come up with some rarer occurances where a blocker causes you to need even more angle off a rail than is possible with 0-1 tips, or some cluster breakout/masse/swerve/kick stuff, but are there some more common shots where pros use more than 1 tip of side for positional purposes?

Looking for inspiration for my practice routines, at the moment when practicing extreme side I don't really feel like the types of shots I play ever come up in matches.
 
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extreme side is necessary when the cue ball object ball angle and where the cue ball has to go requires extreme english to get there
in other words
if you need to get THERE
sometimes the only way is extreme side
i am not an instructor
 
bbb said:
extreme side is necessary when the cue ball object ball angle and where the cue ball has to go requires extreme english to get there
in other words
if you need to get THERE
sometimes the only way is extreme side
i am not an instructor
Click to expand...
Can you give me some example? I understand the concept but am having a hard time coming up with examples that are common and not the kind of shots that come up once in few months. In my experience, almost every time when I think I might need extreme side to force an angle, I end up being able to create that same angle with 0-1 tips of english and maximum high or low.
 
Extreme side question is a little vague.
Can you be more specific? Like...

Is it 1-2-3-4-5 o'clock Extreme right side or?
 
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Oikawa said:
Can you give me some example? I understand the concept but am having a hard time coming up with examples that are common and not the kind of shots that come up once in few months. In my experience, almost every time when I think I might need extreme side to force an angle, I end up being able to create that same angle with 0-1 tips of english and maximum high or low.
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its late for me and i am about to go to bed
but here is a shot which may not be diagrammed perfect
but to get to the the 1st diamond above the corner you need extreme english since the other routes are blocked (as best as i could place them being tired (you could get to the other side if the 2 but i was too tired to block that route (
i can give some other examples tomorrow
ok shot.png
 
Island Drive said:
Extreme side question is a little vague.
Can you more specific? Like...

Is it 1-2-3-4-5 o'clock Extreme right side or?
Click to expand...
Anything that can't be done with 0-1 tips of side. So whether its up or down or middle if its horizontally more than 1 full tips width away from center I'd start to call that extreme, since 99%+ of shots I play in the 0-1 tip range.
 
bbb said:
its late for me and i am about to go to bed
but here is a shot which may not be diagrammed perfect
but to get to the the 1st diamond above the corner you need extreme english since the other routes are blocked (as best as i could place them being tired (you could get to the other side if the 2 but i was too tired to block that route (
i can give some other examples tomorrow
View attachment 728986
Click to expand...
This is a good example, thanks. I just set that layout up and tried it, and I could still make it with 1tip of left and maximum high, but moving the cueball slightly more to the left makes it behave as you wanted probably, where just using 1tip of left + max high just doesnt change your angle enough off the first rail, especially if you move the 7 ball a bit to the right to block it even more.
 
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I saw an old Mike Sigel match recently in which he was hitting a rail shot where the ob was maybe an inch off the rail. He used extreme low outside for the shot which really surprised me. I hit some shots like that and you can pretty much aim straight at the ob and it will go in... not sure I'd make that my go-to shot but it's good to know how to execute shots like that.
 
Shot lines during your walk up to the shot and placing your bridge hand ''on table''.... are always in ''change'' as you increase/decrease cue ball speed, if it's new cloth, if the balls are clean and Many other factors. That's the simple explanation.

bm
 
Oikawa said:
Anything that can't be done with 0-1 tips of side. So whether its up or down or middle if its horizontally more than 1 full tips width away from center I'd start to call that extreme, since 99%+ of shots I play in the 0-1 tip range.
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This cueing has NO cue ball squirt, its a totally different shot than ''all of the other'' outside 1 tip only cueing's. ie 12345 & 78910.
Hands on table by a good instruction is needed here.
I don't think there's a simple, easy explanation for you on a keyboard.
You need to be at table with a Good instructor.

bm
 
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Oikawa said:
I'm having a hard time figuring out which are some of the most common types of situations in rotation games where you need more than 1 tip of side to play position to the next ball. I can come up with some rarer occurances where a blocker causes you to need even more angle off a rail than is possible with 0-1 tips, or some cluster breakout/masse/swerve/kick stuff, but are there some more common shots where pros use more than 1 tip of side for positional purposes?

Looking for inspiration for my practice routines, at the moment when practicing extreme side I don't really feel like the types of shots I play ever come up in matches.
Click to expand...
If looking for practice stuff go look at Darren Appleton's practice drills and also Fedor Gorst's early stuff which i think is under 'Billiard Brothers' https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLm-NYu03DbMtqs8myB8MYKgRx0iJgQlB4 I wouldn't worry about how often extreme spin shots come up.
 
There are lots. The most common ones are where the ob is pretty close to a rail and you can't manipulate the cb along the tangent line with either speed or top or backspin in order to change the angle to the cushion, because it's getting to the cushion too fast. Then you most likely have to use more than one tip of sidespin to change the rebound angle off of the cushion.

When you can manipulate the path to the rail, like in instances where the ob isn't too close to the rail, you can then use less side spin if you need to continue to change the rebound angle a bit more. But in those cases, most of your work takes effect before the cb hits the cushion.
 
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Anything along the Verticle line of the cue ball, 12 o'clock high, or 6 o'clock low.

Example...

If you look at a wall clock and someone says, ''it's six o'clock straight up.

The minute hands on 12 and the hour hands on 6.
That line from top to bottom, has NO cue ball squirt.

bm
 
The main uses of maximum side I can think of are on kicks, extreme cuts (with outside to help), and some position shots. An example of the last is going a standard 3-cushion position path when going from the side rail to the end rail can't be done without a lot of side. Another case is when much of the speed of the cue ball is generated by the side spin -- a nearly straight shot into the side pocket, go fairly slowly straight to the end rail and then spin two cushions to get to the other end of the table.
 
OP I've got your
Oikawa said:
I'm having a hard time figuring out which are some of the most common types of situations in rotation games where you need more than 1 tip of side to play position to the next ball. I can come up with some rarer occurances where a blocker causes you to need even more angle off a rail than is possible with 0-1 tips, or some cluster breakout/masse/swerve/kick stuff, but are there some more common shots where pros use more than 1 tip of side for positional purposes?

Looking for inspiration for my practice routines, at the moment when practicing extreme side I don't really feel like the types of shots I play ever come up in matches.
Click to expand...
Here's your answer to this part of your OP.

When the object ball is very close to the pocket and the cue ball is also Very close.
Control of extreme outside cueing is Very Controllable, and often misses are from ''letting up'' on ones concentration/focus. I saw Ghorst miss a shot just like this, not because of it being difficult, but all parts of execution/feel/speed cue ball spin coming off, dirt build up on object balls and on and on are in play.

bm
 
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garczar said:
If looking for practice stuff go look at Darren Appleton's practice drills and also Fedor Gorst's early stuff which i think is under 'Billiard Brothers' https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLm-NYu03DbMtqs8myB8MYKgRx0iJgQlB4 I wouldn't worry about how often extreme spin shots come up.
Click to expand...
Thanks, the reason I asked this was that it's extremely rare that I use more than 1 tip of side in games for normal shots (e.g. shots where you pot an OB normally and play position, so not counting kicks, swerves etc.), so I was curious if its more a matter of me not being aware of some of the more common use cases, or if they simply aren't that common, and I should treat them more like a speciality shot when practicing. The answer to that question determines the proportion of practice time I should spend on learning to judge extreme side in positional shots relative to other types of shots.
 
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FranCrimi said:
There are lots. The most common ones are where the ob is pretty close to a rail and you can't manipulate the cb along the tangent line with either speed or top or backspin in order to change the angle to the cushion, because it's getting to the cushion too fast. Then you most likely have to use more than one tip of sidespin to change the rebound angle off of the cushion.

When you can manipulate the path to the rail, like in instances where the ob isn't too close to the rail, you can then use less side spin if you need to continue to change the rebound angle a bit more. But in those cases, most of your work takes effect before the cb hits the cushion.
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Thanks! This makes sense and I guess I knew it on some level but just haven't generalized it like that in my mind.
 
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Bob Jewett said:
The main uses of maximum side I can think of are on kicks, extreme cuts (with outside to help), and some position shots. An example of the last is going a standard 3-cushion position path when going from the side rail to the end rail can't be done without a lot of side. Another case is when much of the speed of the cue ball is generated by the side spin -- a nearly straight shot into the side pocket, go fairly slowly straight to the end rail and then spin two cushions to get to the other end of the table.
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Good ideas, thanks.

Can you elaborate on the usefulness/practicality of using outside to help make extreme cuts? I mean, I understand the theory of using spin-induced throw so you don't have to aim so thin, which I guess in theory makes it easier, but for super thin cuts you typically shoot with a lot of pace, so isn't the little help outweighted by the added difficulty in aiming the shot, having to compensate for the side in aiming while also using lots of power, which can make the side tougher to judge, especially if its extreme side?

I personally find it easier to aim those with no side, very carefully standing on the right line and extending that line to a spot on the wall target to aim at, but maybe I just need to practice doing them with side more.

I guess this is a matter of preference, and depends on how well you judge compensation for various types of side shots. Do pros use this method often?
 
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