Moving Cue Ball Around the Table finally think I get it

S

Snorks

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think I've realized something (only took me 2 years). Do you use spin to move the cueball around the table... or do you use cue ball speed/pace.

I have been watching quite a few of the better players and they never seem to hit the ball very hard, but they are still able to move the ball around like crazy. Then all of a sudden a light went off and I realize they were letting the cue ball do the work by applying spin (a lot of running/inside). The cue ball hits a rail and whammo, it takes off like lighting, or checks like crazy, or does some funky dance that I had no idea it could do.

So, up to last night, I was mostly using cue ball pace to move it around.. sure I would hit some spin, but never really tried to use it with Cue Ball positioning.

Anyway, am I on to something here? Do you move the cue ball around primarily utilizing spin, or were you like how I've always played and moved it around with mostly pace?
 
I

personally use quite a bit of spin, and here's why. Not using spin, notice how the cue ball reacts when it hits the 2nd and 3rd rails, then notice it when you use spin. When you get use to spin, I think predicting where the cue ball will end up, or die on the cloth, is more predictable, primarily because of the reaction of the cue ball on the 2nd and 3rd rails is more consistency than the reaction without spin. Sometimes without spin, the cue ball might deflect a little funny off the 2nd rail and 3rd rail (like a stun on one and take off from the other).

Given each situation, I guess what I am trying to say, is the standard variance between the 2nd and 3rd rail reactions seems to be more than with spin. Many times the spin gives the speed to the cue ball, and when used to it, it becomes predictable how to speed up or slow down the cue for position on the next shot.
 
Snorks...That's because now that you have built a repeatable, sustainable stroke, you can strike the CB exactly where you want to, letting the weight of the cue and timing create the speed of the shot. Now sidespin has a lot more value, and you can more accurately stroke the CB in different places, to get the action you're looking for. I worked with an expert player last night, who, when he takes his time, has a beautiful smooth stroke, with a repeatable result. But on several shots he hurried, when using a lot of sidespin, and didn't get as much action as he expected. Once I pointed that out, he started hitting every shot the same way, using the same kind of set up process that I showed you. The pause at the CB is the key! :D

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
 
Scott Lee said:
The pause at the CB is the key! :D

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...

Boy, truer words were never spoken. I would like to add that to maintain the accuracy you obtain by pausing at the cue ball, allow your final and actual stroke to emulate your last practice stroke and pause.

In other words, don't take those carefully measured practice strokes, the pause at the cue ball, and then change to some big sweeping backstroke with a semi wail at the shot. Rather, deliver the actual hit with the same level smooth stroke and follow through you envisioned with the pause.

I have noticed this is a very common mistake with lots of players. All the effort to precisely aim goes up in smoke when their actual hit differs from what they aimed at the pause.
 
Snorks said:
I think I've realized something (only took me 2 years). Do you use spin to move the cueball around the table... or do you use cue ball speed/pace.

I have been watching quite a few of the better players and they never seem to hit the ball very hard, but they are still able to move the ball around like crazy. Then all of a sudden a light went off and I realize they were letting the cue ball do the work by applying spin (a lot of running/inside). The cue ball hits a rail and whammo, it takes off like lighting, or checks like crazy, or does some funky dance that I had no idea it could do.

So, up to last night, I was mostly using cue ball pace to move it around.. sure I would hit some spin, but never really tried to use it with Cue Ball positioning.

Anyway, am I on to something here? Do you move the cue ball around primarily utilizing spin, or were you like how I've always played and moved it around with mostly pace?
Click to expand...

The good players know how to do both, but it certainly seems from watching the best in the world that they rely heavily on running english to keep the CB moving around the table instead of using extra initial speed to get the job done. Efren Reyes is a perfect example. I think because of his 3-cushion experience, he's really comfortable spinning the ball around the rails where some other players might be more comfortable using less english and forcing the CB more.

It's also important to note that although the end position may be the same hitting the ball harder vs. spinning it around the rails, the path will usually be somewhat different, especially if the shot uses draw or follow. Hitting the ball hard means it stays close to the tangent line for more distance after contact the OB. Also, using more english changes the exit angles off the rails, meaning if you use different amounts of english on two shots, and the CB hits the 3rd rail in about the same place, it probably hit the first and second rails in different places for the different amounts of english used. This is crucial for avoiding running into balls when moving the CB around the table for position.

-Andrew
 
Natural angles -stroke speed

All these are great observations, but the most important has yet to be mentioned. It was mentioned earlier that it appears that great players usually hit the ball with a standard (stroke) speed - not too hard, not too soft.

This is a key to consistent solid play. Great players achieve this not nearly as much by spin but rather by playing position for natural (or nearly natural) angles. If 3 the ball naturally goes three rails without powering the ball, a player will give some helping english and stroke normal speed. If not they are much more likely to hit the ball a little more full, come right out, and shoot a slightly longer shot on the next ball.

The key to playing great is consistency in making shots and leaving shots that can be made consistently.
 
Using any kind of spin, top/bottom/inside/outside will change how the cb comes off the ob and at least the first cushion. Top or bottom will change the tangent line.

First objective should be to learn the natural tangent line and the angles off the cushions. Then a player finds out that he needs to change the tangent or the angle off the cushion in order for the cb to possibly avoid collisions with other balls or to simply get the place on the table where it is needed for the next shot.

Getting position should be done with pace/speed whenever possible and english used when necessary. Good players may use excessive english. Top players use natural angles and english where they have to.

Be aware that side english will change the direction the ob goes. You've just discovered something that you'll have a lot of fun with and which will screw up your game royally until you learn to not use it. :D Or at least not use it unless really needed.
 
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JimS said:
Getting position should be done with pace/speed whenever possible and english used when necessary. Good players may use excessive english. Top players use natural angles and english where they have to.
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If you watch the top players play, and watch closely, I think you'll find that what you just wrote is a frequently-repeated myth. Watching the CB react off the cushions, it's clear that Efren, Bustamante, Earl, Deuel, and many others use side english on nearly every shot where they're playing position off at least one rail.

It's true that side english complicates the shot, but the original poster's question was about the increased CB control english might offer even when it's possible to achieve position without it, and the answer is yes; once you achieve the ability level to use english with extreme accuracy, then position play becomes easier with english, even on shots where it's not absolutely necessary.

For instance, consider the two shots diagrammed below. The first doesn't use side spin, the second one does. Both get good position on the 9. Which one is Efren going to shoot? Before you answer with certainty, you may want to get on youtube and watch a little video of him playing.

CueTable Help



-Andrew
 
JimS said:
First objective should be to learn the natural tangent line and the angles off the cushions. Then a player finds out that he needs to change the tangent or the angle off the cushion in order for the cb to possibly avoid collisions with other balls or to simply get the place on the table where it is needed for the next shot.

.
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You sure nailed that one! Knowing what the cue ball wants to do naturally is critical. The natural path of the cue ball is the base line or "Centergistic" where you start. Once you know that, then you know what needs to be done to adjust the natural roll to meet the needs of a particular shot. If you don't know where the cue ball wants to go, how can you possibly know how to make it go where YOU want it to go?
Reps for that one!
Steve
 
pooltchr said:
You sure nailed that one! Knowing what the cue ball wants to do naturally is critical. The natural path of the cue ball is the base line or "Centergistic" where you start. Once you know that, then you know what needs to be done to adjust the natural roll to meet the needs of a particular shot. If you don't know where the cue ball wants to go, how can you possibly know how to make it go where YOU want it to go?
Reps for that one!
Steve
Click to expand...

Thanks Steve! Great compliment for which I'm truly grateful. I'm learning stuff right and left. Many thanks to Little Joe Villalpando and his DVD's. I gotta leave a plug for him wherever possible. Great guy and extremely helpful stuff.
 
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