Mud Ball be damned!

Kickin' Chicken

Kickin' Chicken

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I found out about a local, weekly 8-ball tourney that draws approximately 25 players, literally less than five minutes from my house. Perfect!

Well, maybe not completely perfect.

I have played in this tourney 8 times, have been fortunate to win it 4 times and took 2nd place, twice. And yes, even with that I'm still about to whine... :o

This is a true local tourney with maybe only 5 or 6 guys who come from out of town that can be considered threats to win it. It's a 2 Valley barbox bar and both tables feature odd rolls and cushions, that when hit medium or faster, will cause the cue ball go airborne.

And oh yeah, the cue balls are mud balls. The two times that I didn't place, and one of the times I took 2nd, I can honestly attribute it to my trying to do something whith whitey (muddy) that wasn't adviseable, given its weight and girth, compared to the other 'normal' balls.

We all played with the same handicap (mudball, bad table rolls, cushions that launch) so why complain? I think that on a barbox, the gap shrinks considerably between skill levels; a SL4 or 5 has a considerable chance to beat a 6 or even a 7 in this scenario. On a 9 foot table with a good set of balls, the vast majority of lower SLs would be much less of a threat.

So, here's my question: I know there are replacements for mudballs, a more normal size & weight magnetic type, one style is "plugged" and the other is "shelled", the shelled version, I believe, is marked with a small green "s".

Does anyone have any experience using either of these? Is one considered better than the other? Any preferred seller for these?

While I'm asking, also, does anyone know where I might get a wall hanging size double-elimination bracket board, specifically a reuseable one (like dry erasure)?

If I'm gonna continue going there I might as well try to improve on it some. :thumbup:

TIA

Best,
Brian kc
 
Kickin' Chicken said:
This is a true local tourney with maybe only 5 or 6 guys who come from out of town that can be considered threats to win it. It's a 2 Valley barbox bar and both tables feature odd rolls and cushions, that when hit medium or faster, will cause the cue ball go airborne.
Click to expand...

This sounds like a tournament I play in every tuesday except our tables sound worse lol

Kickin' Chicken said:
While I'm asking, also, does anyone know where I might get a wall hanging size double-elimination bracket board, specifically a reuseable one (like dry erasure)?
Click to expand...

That would be easy to make with a big white dry-erase board from wal-mart and some little strips of electrical tape
 
My 8-ball league captain has one of those aramith magnetic cueballs for barboxes. we use it when we play at home. usually we have those red-dot (solid burgundy, not red circle) cue balls. there's a slight difference between the two, and i do like aramith because it acts sorta like a red circles younger cousin; as opposed to the red dot - the evil step-mother.
 
"Shelled" cue ball manufacturing process less error-prone

Kickin' Chicken said:
I found out about a local, weekly 8-ball tourney that draws approximately 25 players, literally less than five minutes from my house. Perfect!

Well, maybe not completely perfect.

I have played in this tourney 8 times, have been fortunate to win it 4 times and took 2nd place, twice. And yes, even with that I'm still about to whine... :o

This is a true local tourney with maybe only 5 or 6 guys who come from out of town that can be considered threats to win it. It's a 2 Valley barbox bar and both tables feature odd rolls and cushions, that when hit medium or faster, will cause the cue ball go airborne.

And oh yeah, the cue balls are mud balls. The two times that I didn't place, and one of the times I took 2nd, I can honestly attribute it to my trying to do something whith whitey (muddy) that wasn't adviseable, given its weight and girth, compared to the other 'normal' balls.

We all played with the same handicap (mudball, bad table rolls, cushions that launch) so why complain? I think that on a barbox, the gap shrinks considerably between skill levels; a SL4 or 5 has a considerable chance to beat a 6 or even a 7 in this scenario. On a 9 foot table with a good set of balls, the vast majority of lower SLs would be much less of a threat.

So, here's my question: I know there are replacements for mudballs, a more normal size & weight magnetic type, one style is "plugged" and the other is "shelled", the shelled version, I believe, is marked with a small green "s".

Does anyone have any experience using either of these? Is one considered better than the other? Any preferred seller for these?

While I'm asking, also, does anyone know where I might get a wall hanging size double-elimination bracket board, specifically a reuseable one (like dry erasure)?

If I'm gonna continue going there I might as well try to improve on it some. :thumbup:

TIA

Best,
Brian kc
Click to expand...

Brian:

Concerning your first question, the "shelled" version is better from a "less chance of off-center placement of plug and therefore off-balance" perspective. Even though many cueball manufacturers tend to state that their "plugged" ball is tested, quality assured, yada yada yada, the fact is that off-center placement (or even off-balance inconsistencies in the plug itself) are likely.

"Shelled" cue balls -- which is the terminology used to describe cueballs that are essentially an under-sized cueball covered with a magnetic foil (usually nickel or other ferrous material drawn out to thin sheets like aluminum foil), and then covered again with that ball's material to bring it up to standard diameter. The great thing about this process is that you're starting out with a real, round cue ball as its dead-center, covering it with thin ferrous foil, and then spin-covering it again with cue ball material to bring it up to standard diameter. The resulting cue ball always has a true center, with the foil equidistant from the center at all points -- minimizing off-center/off-balance problems.

A plugged ball that is either cored (or cut in half) with a metal plug installed, has the chance for that plug to be off-center. To give you an idea of how flawed this process is, you know that "trick" cue ball that wobbles and "S"-curves around the table when hit? There's merely a plugged ball with the core so far off-center, that it's like a tire on your car in bad need of being balanced.

I use the Aramith "green-'S'-logoed" ball (the logo isn't really an "S" of course, but rather an "a" with clockwise swirls around it making it look sort of like an "S"). It hasn't failed me with its consistency on any table I walk up to. You can get one in the AZBilliards Marketplace, here:

http://azbmarketplace.com/products/Green_Logo_Aramith_Cue_Ball-402-217.html
ar1009.jpg

Hope this is helpful!
-Sean
 
chicken
As is plain by your domination of this tournament , you are apparently one of the 'higher skilled' players you spoke of.
you show an understanding that the bar box is an equalizer , lessening the gap between higher and lower skilled players.
Guess what ? The mudball is an even bigger equalizer . The lower skilled 'bar players' are used to shooting with it . They learned with it , and it's what they're used to.
Somehow , higher skilled players , who drill & practice with red circle and/or
measle balls , seem to think it's their right to always play with these balls.
Amazing how you lose your 'wizard-like' control , ain't it ?
You came to their house . Play their rules , their equipment.
 
hate to rain on Brian's parade

The better bar table cue balls are designed to work with magnetic tables. The "true" mudball, that oversized heavy basset, has to be replaced with a heavy ball for the table to work properly. I don't know if a heavy ball the same size as the other balls would work or if the size matters too.

Best thing, buy you a mud ball to practice with. Once you get used to that 800 pound gorilla it is actually a wonderful thing. It rolls a lot truer than the plugged cue ball for example, you just have to learn how it rolls and interacts with it's little buddies the numbered balls.

If they open the tables for the tournament, bring any cue ball you can talk them into playing with. Closed tables I think you are stuck with the big muddy.

Hu
 
If you keep winning others will stop coming.

Kickin' Chicken said:
I found out about a local, weekly 8-ball tourney that draws approximately 25 players, literally less than five minutes from my house. Perfect!

Well, maybe not completely perfect.

I have played in this tourney 8 times, have been fortunate to win it 4 times and took 2nd place, twice. And yes, even with that I'm still about to whine... :o

This is a true local tourney with maybe only 5 or 6 guys who come from out of town that can be considered threats to win it. It's a 2 Valley barbox bar and both tables feature odd rolls and cushions, that when hit medium or faster, will cause the cue ball go airborne.

And oh yeah, the cue balls are mud balls. The two times that I didn't place, and one of the times I took 2nd, I can honestly attribute it to my trying to do something whith whitey (muddy) that wasn't adviseable, given its weight and girth, compared to the other 'normal' balls.

We all played with the same handicap (mudball, bad table rolls, cushions that launch) so why complain? I think that on a barbox, the gap shrinks considerably between skill levels; a SL4 or 5 has a considerable chance to beat a 6 or even a 7 in this scenario. On a 9 foot table with a good set of balls, the vast majority of lower SLs would be much less of a threat.

So, here's my question: I know there are replacements for mudballs, a more normal size & weight magnetic type, one style is "plugged" and the other is "shelled", the shelled version, I believe, is marked with a small green "s".

Does anyone have any experience using either of these? Is one considered better than the other? Any preferred seller for these?

While I'm asking, also, does anyone know where I might get a wall hanging size double-elimination bracket board, specifically a reuseable one (like dry erasure)?

If I'm gonna continue going there I might as well try to improve on it some. :thumbup:

TIA

Best,
Brian kc
Click to expand...
First off are the tables open for the tournament or do you need to drop quarters?
If they are open the Red Circle or Measle cue ball could be used.
If not the green logoed foil/shell ball is the best choice. If the table is set up for a magnetic which most Valleys are.
But they are rather costly, $15-$18.

You might want to think about a Laptop for your brackets.
There are a number of tournament manager programs that work great.

One other thing you need a rule that states something like, if someone wins two in a row they are out for a week.:rolleyes:

Another good way of keeping people coming back is having the better players in the top bracket and the lesser players in the bottom bracket.
Then the don't meet till the hill.

What kind of rules do you play?
A good tournament can not be played with just plain bar rules.
 
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Aramith magnetic ball

If you get the Aramith ball, be aware is still may not work. I bought one for my league team to use at home, only to find out our "wonderful" Dynamo table requires a heavy ball. The magnetic aspect made no difference.
 
ridinda9 said:
chicken
As is plain by your domination of this tournament , you are apparently one of the 'higher skilled' players you spoke of.
you show an understanding that the bar box is an equalizer , lessening the gap between higher and lower skilled players.
Guess what ? The mudball is an even bigger equalizer . The lower skilled 'bar players' are used to shooting with it . They learned with it , and it's what they're used to.
Somehow , higher skilled players , who drill & practice with red circle and/or
measle balls , seem to think it's their right to always play with these balls.
Amazing how you lose your 'wizard-like' control , ain't it ?
You came to their house . Play their rules , their equipment.
Click to expand...

Is being dumbed down by the equipment necessarily a good thing?

I have played on DiamondSmart barboxes and enjoyed it very much. I also have the ability to adapt to table rolls and wierd cushions. But me and mudballs just aren't good friends. You can barely jump one, draw shots over a foot are near impossible, and the interaction between balls that are different sizes poses its own set of challenges.

I'm not proposing a different ball for myself, I was intending to purchase a couple of these balls as well as a proper DE bracket board for the bar for all to use and enjoy.

Maybe it is selfish to intoduce the newer style cueballs. I'll have to give it some more thought. Initially, I figured these new cueballs represented progress.

Best,
Brian kc
 
ascreech said:
If you get the Aramith ball, be aware is still may not work. I bought one for my league team to use at home, only to find out our "wonderful" Dynamo table requires a heavy ball. The magnetic aspect made no difference.
Click to expand...

That is *so* true! One has to be very careful in this regard; although the Dynamo tables are not nearly as common as magnetic-return Valleys, they *are* out there. The best cue ball to get for the Dynamo table, is probably the heavyweight of all cue balls, the Aramith Red Dot Dynamo, weighing in at 6.875 (6 7/8) ounces -- a full ounce heavier than the rest of the object balls:

http://poolndarts.com/p-3599-Red-Dot-Dynamo-Belgian-Aramith-Ball/

By the way, the "Red Dot" ball offered in the AZBilliards Marketplace is *NOT* the Red Dot Dynamo. Instead, it's a Red Circle copy that won't return on a Dynamo table. The true Red Dot Dynamo is only available from either Muellers, or other outlet where it's plainly labeled/offered with the word "Dynamo" in its name.

Hope this is additionally helpful,
-Sean
 
ShootingArts said:
The better bar table cue balls are designed to work with magnetic tables. The "true" mudball, that oversized heavy basset, has to be replaced with a heavy ball for the table to work properly. I don't know if a heavy ball the same size as the other balls would work or if the size matters too.

Best thing, buy you a mud ball to practice with. Once you get used to that 800 pound gorilla it is actually a wonderful thing. It rolls a lot truer than the plugged cue ball for example, you just have to learn how it rolls and interacts with it's little buddies the numbered balls.

If they open the tables for the tournament, bring any cue ball you can talk them into playing with. Closed tables I think you are stuck with the big muddy.

Hu
Click to expand...

Hi Hu;

We drop quarters so the tables stay closed.

A fellow brought an Aramith "shelled" cueball to the tourney two weeks ago and he and I played a few games with it after the tourney was over and it worked fine. No return issues at all.

And it played real nice. :cool:

Best,
Brian kc
 
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Most places that stick with the big ball when the don't really have to do so because they are cheaper and less likely to be stolen. :angry::mad:

One place I play has some super old valleys that the foil ball works on.
I believe they might have been updated to be magnetic tables.
Maybe one of our table mechanics can help us with that one.
 
sfleinen said:
Brian:

Concerning your first question, the "shelled" version is better from a "less chance of off-center placement of plug and therefore off-balance" perspective. Even though many cueball manufacturers tend to state that their "plugged" ball is tested, quality assured, yada yada yada, the fact is that off-center placement (or even off-balance inconsistencies in the plug itself) are likely.

"Shelled" cue balls -- which is the terminology used to describe cueballs that are essentially an under-sized cueball covered with a magnetic foil (usually nickel or other ferrous material drawn out to thin sheets like aluminum foil), and then covered again with that ball's material to bring it up to standard diameter. The great thing about this process is that you're starting out with a real, round cue ball as its dead-center, covering it with thin ferrous foil, and then spin-covering it again with cue ball material to bring it up to standard diameter. The resulting cue ball always has a true center, with the foil equidistant from the center at all points -- minimizing off-center/off-balance problems.

A plugged ball that is either cored (or cut in half) with a metal plug installed, has the chance for that plug to be off-center. To give you an idea of how flawed this process is, you know that "trick" cue ball that wobbles and "S"-curves around the table when hit? There's merely a plugged ball with the core so far off-center, that it's like a tire on your car in bad need of being balanced.

I use the Aramith "green-'S'-logoed" ball (the logo isn't really an "S" of course, but rather an "a" with clockwise swirls around it making it look sort of like an "S"). It hasn't failed me with its consistency on any table I walk up to. You can get one in the AZBilliards Marketplace, here:


Hope this is helpful!
-Sean
Click to expand...

Sean;

Thank you for your in-depth response.

Yes, it was extremely helpful.

Best,
Brian kc
 
Brian;

People that grew up playing with these balls like them. And I'm sure your idea of "progress" is their idea of screwing up their game.

Its a different game. You have to move different and shoot different to take advantage of the larger CB. You have to learn to get the right angle and use follow on the CB. The equalizer, as you put it, is your, inexperience on this kind of table/CB.

And BTW, there a many things you can do with that heavy CB, that cannot be easily done with the smaller/regular ball.

Expand your skills, learn to play with the large CB.
 
Deadon said:
Brian;

People that grew up playing with these balls like them. And I'm sure your idea of "progress" is their idea of screwing up their game.

Its a different game. You have to move different and shoot different to take advantage of the larger CB. You have to learn to get the right angle and use follow on the CB. The equalizer, as you put it, is your, inexperience on this kind of table/CB.

And BTW, there a many things you can do with that heavy CB, that cannot be easily done with the smaller/regular ball.

Expand your skills, learn to play with the large CB.
Click to expand...

I have been playing with these old-school barbox cueballs almost exclusively the first twenty five years of my forty years playing pool. I manage to do okay with them but can do better with a new style cueball that can be finessed. Simply a matter of preference. I'll bet if you polled a hundred serious barbox players, the majority would prefer not to use a mudball if they had a choice. And for the record, I'm sure many of the people playing in bars with mudballs aren't even aware that there is a choice.

In regard to your statement that I highlighted above in red, immobilizing a drunken, unruly patron comes to my mind. :grin::p

Best,
Brian kc
 
Brian,

I think what a few of the posters are tactfully trying to imply here is that you are winning your share of the tournaments yet still are looking to "better the odds" so to speak. If you make an even BETTER showing than you already have, you are certainly going to run off many of the lesser skilled players until the tourney dwindles down and eventually withers away. Trust me, I've seen this happen in more than one bar. If it were me, I'd just use the equipment the bar offers and be damn happy to win basically every other tournament.

Maniac
 
Maniac said:
Brian,

I think what a few of the posters are tactfully trying to imply here is that you are winning your share of the tournaments yet still are looking to "better the odds" so to speak. If you make an even BETTER showing than you already have, you are certainly going to run off many of the lesser skilled players until the tourney dwindles down and eventually withers away. Trust me, I've seen this happen in more than one bar. If it were me, I'd just use the equipment the bar offers and be damn happy to win basically every other tournament.

Maniac
Click to expand...

Actually, the tourneys are ending in a couple of weeks in favor of a new league which they're starting in September.

And please believe me that my intent is for all who play there to do better with better equipment. I have heard lots of complaints from the more skilled players about the mudball, and I agree. That said, I know that my opinion is mine only and is certainly not the last word.

I enjoy competing and have been spoiled playing on some nice equipment.

Also, I sure don't want anyone to think I'm shaking down a small town tourney. When I'm lucky enough to win I leave more than half in tips for the bar staff to be a good sport. :thumbup:

Best,
Brian kc
 
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the mud ball is a nice fence too

Maniac said:
Brian,

I think what a few of the posters are tactfully trying to imply here is that you are winning your share of the tournaments yet still are looking to "better the odds" so to speak. If you make an even BETTER showing than you already have, you are certainly going to run off many of the lesser skilled players until the tourney dwindles down and eventually withers away. Trust me, I've seen this happen in more than one bar. If it were me, I'd just use the equipment the bar offers and be damn happy to win basically every other tournament.

Maniac
Click to expand...

The mud ball can serve as a nice fence too. Bar room bangers don't care but if another pool player comes along, particularly a young one, they are likely to be frustrated by the mud ball. The mud ball can be finessed as much as any cue ball, you just have to accept where it wants to go and modify that path instead of insisting that it should play like a conventional red circle or measle ball.

Accept the mud ball as part of the playing conditions and it becomes your friend. Don't accept it and you will struggle from now on trying to make it play like a standard cue ball.

Hu
 
Does anyone know if mudballs are being used in any top amateur or pro barbox tourneys? And if not, why?

Best,
Brian kc
 
Deadon said:
And BTW, there a many things you can do with that heavy CB, that cannot be easily done with the smaller/regular ball.

Expand your skills, learn to play with the large CB.
Click to expand...

Grab a copy of the Eight Ball Bible and you will be amazed at some of the things you can do with the mud ball. After reading that book I had a desire to play with a mud ball to see if I could do some of the shots in the book.
 
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