My Last APA Post

NewStroke

NewStroke

Screamin Monkey
Silver Member
This weekend was our county 9-ball tournament and as an experiment me and two equivalent players got together and decided we would choose who would win the tournament. We watched the LO interact with the various teams and knowing his previous interaction with those teams we picked the winner of the tourney. This had nothing to do with team skill, just socialization measurement. We took it a step further and predicted how the win would occur. We predicted that the opposing teams would start being ripped apart by having their players moved up in skill level.

By the time 4 teams were left, 3 of them could not field a full team. Guess who the 4th was?

Now we understand that people can go up in skill level and that's not an issue. We all know the ranking calculation is a mysterious black box that only 3 people on Earth understand. But here are the reasons we compiled when we asked our LO:

1. "I FELT your player shot better than a 4." WTF does this mean? When averaging, you have highs and lows. Nowhere when calculating an average is there a "FEELING" variable. I asked a police officer that was on another team if he pulled me over for doing 80 in a 65 and I said I "FELT" I was doing 65, what would he do? He laughed and said enjoy the $300 fine.

I also did some research and learned our LO has about a 3 skill level. He is impressed with pretty shots.

2. "I didn't move player X up (winning team) because he got BIH and it made it easier to for him to run balls." He was referring to a 4 that beat our 4 in 5 games and 8 innings. Our 4 was forced to give him BIH because he could not hit a freakin ball because he was hooked everytime he shot.

3. "I had secret 9's and my son who's a good 6 evaluating players and they felt your player was much better than their skill level." Without a baseline, how can you make an evaluation? Also just because a person is a high skill level, it does not guarantee their analysis will be right, especially when those 9's are still in the tournament and have a high interest in winning as well.

Summary:

Here is what all this comes down to:

1. Skill levels don't mean anything. No matter what the black box calculates, the LO can do whatever they want.
2. The LO controls the outcome of the tournament. Skill means nothing.
3. APA is a great scam. They provide you a base set of rules but any LO can create bylaws to modify those rules to their advantage.

Conclusion:

This was my last APA match. Instead of paying $20 a week to play, I am going to put that money in a jar and buy new cues for my 2 and 3 y/o.

I also have spoken other individuals who are moving to other leagues. If you start taking the cash away from LO maybe he/she will start to think a little more clearly.

I just thought you may find this interesting.
 
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I bash the APA as much or more than anyone.

I will take the opposing side and make some positive points.

1. It is a SOCIAL league. If you are thinking anything else. Stop.

2. Sandbagging happens all the time. Options: a) Accept it and move on, b) join in on the sandbagging games., c) Complain, and whine.

3.) Introduces a bunch of people to pool. To me this is the most important thing it does. Alot of these folks would never, never go to a pool hall but do play in leagues. My sister watches NASCAR, and buys what is advertized, to get pool anywhere we need sponsors.

4.) If you cant just go and enjoy it, quit. It is what it is. Expecting sweeping changes is pretty lame.

5.) Have fun.

Ken
 
Unfortunately the LO has every right in the world to move a player up if he feel like that person is playing above their established handicap. They are probably given this power because without it a team could bring on a new player and have them get minimum number of matched played as a low skill level and then roll into cities playing as a SL2 when they are really a SL6.

This should only be done when an obvious case of sandbagging is taking place but it looks like you LO is taking advantage of this. Maybe you can contact the national office with the players that were raised and see what they say.
 
Wow, your league opperator sucks. They should just input the numbers in the computer and print out what it spits out. There is not supposed to be all this personel evaluation on the local level. You might want to just email the national office and see what they have to say.
 
NewStroke said:
This weekend was our county 9-ball tournament and as an experiment me and two equivalent players got together and decided we would choose who would win the tournament. We watched the LO interact with the various teams and knowing his previous interaction with those teams we picked the winner of the tourney. This had nothing to do with team skill, just socialization measurement. We took it a step further and predicted how the win would occur. We predicted that the opposing teams would start being ripped apart by having their players moved up in skill level.

By the time 4 teams were left, 3 of them could not field a full team. Guess who the 4th was?

Now we understand that people can go up in skill level and that's not an issue. We all know the ranking calculation is a mysterious black box that only 3 people on Earth understand. But here are the reasons we compiled when we asked our LO:

1. "I FELT your player shot better than a 4." WTF does this mean? When averaging, you have highs and lows. Nowhere when calculating an average is there a "FEELING" variable. I asked a police officer that was on another team if he pulled me over for doing 80 in a 65 and I said I "FELT" I was doing 65, what would he do? He laughed and said enjoy the $300 fine.

I also did some research and learned our LO has about a 3 skill level. He is impressed with pretty shots.

2. "I didn't move player X up (winning team) because he got BIH and it made it easier to for him to run balls." He was referring to a 4 that beat our 4 in 5 games and 8 innings. Our 4 was forced to give him BIH because he could not hit a freakin ball because he was hooked everytime he shot.

3. "I had secret 9's and my son who's a good 6 evaluating players and they felt your player was much better than their skill level." Without a baseline, how can you make an evaluation? Also just because a person is a high skill level, it does not guarantee their analysis will be right, especially when those 9's are still in the tournament and have a high interest in winning as well.

Summary:

Here is what all this comes down to:

1. Skill levels don't mean anything. No matter what the black box calculates, the LO can do whatever they want.
2. The LO controls the outcome of the tournament. Skill means nothing.
3. APA is a great scam. They provide you a base set of rules but any LO can create bylaws to modify those rules to their advantage.

Conclusion:

This was my last APA match. Instead of paying $20 a week to play, I am going to put that money in a jar and buy new cues for my 2 and 3 y/o.

I also have spoken other individuals who are moving to other leagues. If you start taking the case away from LO maybe he/she will start to think a little more clearly.

I just thought you may find this interesting.
Click to expand...


Thats too bad that you did not have a good experience at your county tournament . Just a couple of quick questions.

If you were playing in the tournament, why did you put so much effort into trying to figure out who else would win and not focus on your own team.

Is it really possible that you went into this weekend with an open mind to begin with as many of your other posts are bashing the APA.





I myself, played in our cities 8-ball 2 weeks ago and 9-ball last weekend and had a great time. We lost in the final in 9-ball and early on in 8-ball. A few peple got raised but only those that a) everyone thought might be and b) that shot well above their skill level on the weekends. By the final, we had 2 players raised and the other team had 1. I accept it as just part of the game. You know the longer you go if your players play above their head they will get raised.

If your LO sucks that bad then you do have my sincerest apologies. in our area, the LO and his wife do a great job and put alot into the league. I only wish that all the LO did as good a job as ours.

I, for one, really enjoy the APA and the Vegas experience (not going this year) and simply wish that people that have an agenda against it would simply stop bashing it.
 
I played in our Vegas qualifier this weekend, and saw none of the stuff you encountered. To be honest, I did not stay till the end, only through 2 rounds, when we were eliminated.

Everything seemed to run well at ours, and I didn't hear any complaints other than having to play on one of the two 8-footers in the room. (the other 16 tables were all 9 footers, and apparently one could refuse to play on the 8's if they so chose... i dunno.)

No one was raised or lowered that I heard of, tho i didn't talk to everyone. All i can do is assume, given the lack of grumbling about it. No one on our team was raised or lowered.

And ken_4-fun, I hate to disappoint you, but none of our opponents seemed to have sandbagged. All 9 matches that I watched involving our team seemed to be Skill-Level appropriate. As anyone can have a really good day, or a really bad day (like the poor SL6 that I found a way to get past) this can vary. But watching everyone shoot, they seemed to be handicapped fairly accurately. Maybe ken is right, and everyone does it, but apparently we didn't get the message out here in the wilderness. Again, I didn't get to see too much other than what my team participated in, but there were two other teams from our league there, as well as two teams from a nearby league, and all of them are reasonably handicapped as well, so it certainly can't be an epidemic in our part of the world. Certainly no one is more than one level off, and that could fluctuate organically, given how someone plays for a period of time.

I thought our tournament was well run. Yes, this is the first one that I've been involved in, so I have no perspective. Perhaps that is a good thing, as I'm able to come in and observe with no pre-conceived notions, other than what I've read here of course.

I'm sorry the OP had such an awful time. If it truly is that bad, I would think people would stop going in large enough numbers that would get his attention. Or at least national APA's attention. I dunno. Too bad.
 
It is what it is.

the sooner you become at peace with that, the sooner you will go back to enjoying it for exactly what it is. Entertainment.

like WWE, it should be called APE, American Poolplayers Entertainment... Maybe then some folks would see the spade... It's the big one in the center of the room thats says "HI! I'M A SPADE" on it.
 
We just finished up the cities tourney's for 8 ball and 9 ball over the last few weeks.

I never have to play another APA match again. Never EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER.

I did enjoy the APA for quite some time, but it is an amateur, social, league, and it is no longer fun for me to watch 2 hours long races to 3.

It was a lot of fun for a lot of years, but the 23 rule forces teams to break up and drives the upper level players out (particularly in 9 ball.)

See you all at the Weekly Strokers Tournament on Wednesdays :-D
 
Really people with bad experiences should contact the main office in st. louis. Our LO does a very good job and he has the biggest franchise, is he perfect no, but it would be to weed out some of the bad LO. Let your voice be heard.
 
LeagueGuy said:
.

If you were playing in the tournament, why did you put so much effort into trying to figure out who else would win and not focus on your own team.
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We did this before the tourny started. It was just fun to watch it play out. My team did great, we placed 2nd.

LeagueGuy said:
.
Is it really possible that you went into this weekend with an open mind to begin with as many of your other posts are bashing the APA.
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Totally, to me this was just another tournament. The previous posts didn't matter too much, but we know the track record of our LO.
 
One more piece I forgot to mention. I am the coCaptain and my son is the Captain. We were pulled aside before the final by the LO and told that if he didn't feel that we didn't play to our full potention that he would forfeit our match. So we asked what happens if we win each match 20-0, he said he would forfeit us.

No I don't know about you, but we were put between a rock and hard place before the final began. Our response was to just play. Given the environment we had no chance of winning.

A side note about us "sandbagging", we don't, for the last 3 sessions we have placed first. And we placed by a huge margin. They should have taken that into account.
 
Neil said:
.

The part I don't get- your handicap is supposed to be an average of your play all season, how on earth can they raise it after one or two games in the tournament??? How can that possibly be fair or unbiased??? Why didn't the LO raise it sooner, like well before the tournament??
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Exactly Neil, that's what my collegues and I were asking.
 
yeah, yeah, I've heard all of this from you before. "I'm going to quit the APA, blah, blah..." Oh wait, I keep saying that too. :mad:
 
Ken_4fun said:
I bash the APA as much or more than anyone.

I will take the opposing side and make some positive points.

1. It is a SOCIAL league. If you are thinking anything else. Stop.

2. Sandbagging happens all the time. Options: a) Accept it and move on, b) join in on the sandbagging games., c) Complain, and whine.

3.) Introduces a bunch of people to pool. To me this is the most important thing it does. Alot of these folks would never, never go to a pool hall but do play in leagues. My sister watches NASCAR, and buys what is advertized, to get pool anywhere we need sponsors.

4.) If you cant just go and enjoy it, quit. It is what it is. Expecting sweeping changes is pretty lame.

5.) Have fun.

Ken
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then why have rules...."it is what it is", when people like yourself let it get to that way, just another way of saying I'm not getting involved...jmho[/B]
 
2 hour race to 3

BryanBpool said:
We just finished up the cities tourney's for 8 ball and 9 ball over the last few weeks.

I never have to play another APA match again. Never EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER.

I did enjoy the APA for quite some time, but it is an amateur, social, league, and it is no longer fun for me to watch 2 hours long races to 3.

It was a lot of fun for a lot of years, but the 23 rule forces teams to break up and drives the upper level players out (particularly in 9 ball.)

See you all at the Weekly Strokers Tournament on Wednesdays :-D
Click to expand...

Imagine that,, 5 times??? Some bars would have to be open ALL night to complete one match. LUCKY TO LIVE IN THE LAND OF MISSOURI 8 BALL.
 
Neil said:
The part I don't get- your handicap is supposed to be an average of your play all season, how on earth can they raise it after one or two games in the tournament??? How can that possibly be fair or unbiased??? Why didn't the LO raise it sooner, like well before the tournament??
Click to expand...

The way I understand it is that 1 match played in a HLT (high level tourny) is counted as 2 matches to try to keep the people from sandbagging all season and then crushing people in the cities. That is what Ive been told and it makes sense but I cant say with 100% certainty because Ive learned through some other APA threads that the bylaws are different all over and Im not sure if that is a local or national rule.

I cant take part in the APA bashing though. Im part of a great team that I can honestly say has NEVER sandbagged and try 100% every matchup. We also have a great LO in the Charlotte area that keeps things running smoothly and fairly. Considering all the people she must put up with, that is quite a feat.
 
never liked league. but i just got the dough i an in-house league. my opinion is beginning to change. stick to gambling. it makes you bear down more.
 
Neil said:
The part I don't get- your handicap is supposed to be an average of your play all season, how on earth can they raise it after one or two games in the tournament??? How can that possibly be fair or unbiased??? Why didn't the LO raise it sooner, like well before the tournament??
Click to expand...

How can they possibly raise it after week five of a sixteen-week session? Wouldn't that be just as unfair or biased?

A player's handicap is recalculated after every match they play. It could go up or down at any time. Some players may be on the verge of going up, and shoot well enough in their first tournament match to push them over the edge.

This isn't the NBA or MLB. In those leagues, the good teams "coast" through the regular season, then "turn it up a notch" come playoff time. That shouldn't happen here. We're administering a handicap system that is supposed to measure how well a player can play. What we end up measuring is demonstrated ability. Unless everyone tries their best every time, the computer will measure some abilities too low.

Unfortunately, some players decide not to shoot well until it's tournament time.

When a player shoots above their skill level, we basically have three options: (1) do nothing, (2) raise the skill level, or (3) disqualify the team.

If we do nothing, then we have to hear it from the people they beat about how can we possibly allow an obvious sandbagger to continue cheating. Maybe we think it was an honest player who just had a great match, or we're not sure and want to give them the benefit of the doubt. But that won't matter to the team that lost - to them we're clearly screwing them by favoring the "sandbagging team".

If we raise the skill level, we get what we have here. "How can you do that after ONE match?" Either we raised the player because we don't like that team, or we raised the player because we do like their next opponent. Even if WE didn't raise the player (they went up on their own), in the minds of that player's teammates, we screwed their team.

Of course, the DQ is the ultimate "screwing" of the team. It RARELY happens locally, because when you DQ a team, you HAVE to be right. Disqualifying a team that didn't deserve it is the most egregious of errors. Unfortunately, to avoid this error you have to pass on some teams that probably do deserve it.

So there you have it - you try to do the right thing, but no matter what you do somebody "got screwed". In reality, it's almost always just sour grapes. Most LO's are smart enough to know that what's best for them is a league or tournament that's as fair as it can be.
 
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