My take on action...

Gerry

Gerry

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I was reading another thread about matching up, and someone said they gamble a little but the price of diapers and working a lot makes it tough. That got me thinking about some of the older guys saying there's not as much action around lately, and nobody has any heart to gamble. Maybe a lot of it has to do with the cost of living in 2006 and both people working in the house hold just to make the bills. Yesterday my dad talked about building his first house for $16,000 in 1954, and that he can't see how young couples make it today when his last car cost more than his first house:D

Maybe he's right? There's just not as much play money around like there was back in the day. I'm sure this was touched on before, but I had to throw it out there.

Gerry
 
Good opinion there Gerry, i tend to agree.

if you want money, work for it...can't make it playing pool. pool is now a hobby, not an income, unless you happen to be on the ipt, and i believe that may not be all rosey as some believe. keep in kevin's pockets as long as you can guys and gals...it can't last forever.
 
Gerry said:
I was reading another thread about matching up, and someone said they gamble a little but the price of diapers and working a lot makes it tough. That got me thinking about some of the older guys saying there's not as much action around lately, and nobody has any heart to gamble. Maybe a lot of it has to do with the cost of living in 2006 and both people working in the house hold just to make the bills. Yesterday my dad talked about building his first house for $16,000 in 1954, and that he can't see how young couples make it today when his last car cost more than his first house:D

Maybe he's right? There's just not as much play money around like there was back in the day. I'm sure this was touched on before, but I had to throw it out there.

Gerry
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IMHO, the cost of living has nothing to do with it. Your dad probably didn't mention that the average working class income when he built that house was well under 4 or 5000 a year. I can remember a neighbor of mine in the late 50's bragging about his dad making 100 bucks a week as a union carpenter when he had work. There is as much disposable income around as there ever was or more. Assuming the old-timers are right and not just mis-remembering the reason I would guess is that ... 1. fewer people play pool and 2. those that like to gamble have other avenues to gamble (i.e. casinos everywhere).
 
Gerry said:
Maybe he's right? There's just not as much play money around like there was back in the day. I'm sure this was touched on before, but I had to throw it out there.
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Not to mention the fact that the pool payouts in 2006 are EXACTLY the same as they were in 1986. Yet, the cost of living has increased dramatically.

For some, pool is a recreational hobby, and for others, it is their livelihood. The MAJORITY of Americans who actually do play pool have no desire to become a professional. Yet, the income revenue in the pool culture as it exists today comes from the MAJORITY of Americans who play on weekly leagues and are social bangers. Professional pool players are a small lot in the scheme of things, and to date, professional pool remains in quicksand as the cost of living gets higher and higher. :p

Most of the high-stakes action games I witness or hear about are usually backed by those who have a large amount of disposable income. Working stiffs can't cut the mustard when it comes to staking themselves, the risk being just too doggone high. Many action players are now transforming themselves to be tournament soldiers because, truth be told, the action dried up with the advent of high technology. JMHO, FWIW.

JAM
 
catscradle said:
IMHO, the cost of living has nothing to do with it. Your dad probably didn't mention that the average working class income when he built that house was well under 4 or 5000 a year. I can remember a neighbor of mine in the late 50's bragging about his dad making 100 bucks a week as a union carpenter when he had work. There is as much disposable income around as there ever was or more. Assuming the old-timers are right and not just mis-remembering the reason I would guess is that ... 1. fewer people play pool and 2. those that like to gamble have other avenues to gamble (i.e. casinos everywhere).
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I think things are different then the old days. Years ago, if your house cost 16000 and you made 5000, you made 33% of what the house cost.
Nowadays, if you have a 300000 house, you have to make 100000 to be in the same ballpark.

Brian
 
Years ago very few people had televisions and hardly anyone owned a pool table. It was common and part of the week to go to a neighborhood bar for entertainment and socializing. Many workers cashed their checks in the bars on Friday which lead to card and pool games. Games would start out friendly and the local player would see a easy mark, got greedy and ended up getting hustled.

Now people go to the casino. People want to get a big payoff now and not grind it out for a few dollars. Plus there is no skill involved in feeding a slot machine.

Today with television there is so much information that if anyone gets hustled they deserve to lose their money.
 
APA7 said:
I think things are different then the old days. Years ago, if your house cost 16000 and you made 5000, you made 33% of what the house cost.
Nowadays, if you have a 300000 house, you have to make 100000 to be in the same ballpark.

Brian
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Years ago when you applied for a mortgage the most you could get was 1 1/2 times your base income, no overtime, and you could not combine your wife's income, you needed at least 10% down plus the escrow for the first year. Very few women worked as it was necessary for them to stay home and maintain the household. They did not have all the so called conviences that we have today. Very few people owned a house and many times they lived with other family members or had 2 story flats or duplexes incomes to help pay the mortgage.

I remember people being turned down because they needed to make 2 cents and hour more. The house that I qualified for 37 years and am still living in most people wouldn't even consider it as a starter home today. It is a basic 1000 sq ft ranch and people told me that I would never be able to afford it and I was nuts when I bought it. I had a darn good paying job as a millwright but we did struggle for a few years.


reason for edit. I made a mistake it was 2 1/2 not 1 1/2 thimes your wage
 
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money or lack of money has little to do with poor action

I think that what has killed pool action is that people are better educated about pool with it actually on TV a good bit now and they have other avenues to gamble. They see amateurs making a big score at the poker tables and at the casino. They also know that pool is a skill game where ability will almost always tell the story at the end of the day.

So who killed pools action? We did, with the movies and television exposure. You make one or two tough shots or even come close and the action dries up fast. Strangers have a tough time getting a fair game too because everyone "knows" that people are on the road now, although damned few are.

I think that the tournaments and the action to be found around them is the best avenue for making a few dollars, and I think that is a good thing. I used to think that an angry mob escorting me to the door was the normal thing to happen a few times a week when I was much younger. It doesn't seem nearly as funny now.

Hu
 
I will add my two cents. When I was around 24-25 (im 32 now)i played at my local pool room in Victoria Va. A place called Rack and Roll small pool room with 8 bar tables...but during that time there was no place in southside Va. That more pool was played..from 12pm till 11pm there was non stop pool. Games ranged from ring games of 4 people $2 on the 5 $2 on the 9 or some 5 to 10 dollor on the nine games. Back then you had to fight to get into a game due to so many people wanting to play...As the skill level of the top players went up the desire of the lesser players decresed to the point that they walked away from the game. I used to make 100.00 extra a week in pool compared to the 275 dollars i made at the local resturant that i worked at. To me that was pretty damn good money..but as i look today so many people seem to want to jump on the band wagon of playing for big money that they forget the key lesson i learned from an old hustler...get the money..no matter how small it all adds up. I love playing in five dollar ring games. I make good money..but the cost of living and the fact of being married really prevents you from playing for big money.. I talked to guy last night who kinda ragged on a favorite local player of mine because he says "He doest play for big money" I told him if you can take the money a person is willing to lose then do it, dont degrade his game because his money isnt long.
 
the real story

You hear about all of the big money games but the truth is that I have shot with road players for two or three dollars a game and they were damned happy to try to win that. I have shot with them in small bars with one or two tables and nothing but drunks to play against also. The drunks sometimes came out ahead playing on their tables that they shot on six nights a week too.

Things always look better from the outside looking in.

Hu


quitecoolguy said:
I will add my two cents. When I was around 24-25 (im 32 now)i played at my local pool room in Victoria Va. A place called Rack and Roll small pool room with 8 bar tables...but during that time there was no place in southside Va. That more pool was played..from 12pm till 11pm there was non stop pool. Games ranged from ring games of 4 people $2 on the 5 $2 on the 9 or some 5 to 10 dollor on the nine games. Back then you had to fight to get into a game due to so many people wanting to play...As the skill level of the top players went up the desire of the lesser players decresed to the point that they walked away from the game. I used to make 100.00 extra a week in pool compared to the 275 dollars i made at the local resturant that i worked at. To me that was pretty damn good money..but as i look today so many people seem to want to jump on the band wagon of playing for big money that they forget the key lesson i learned from an old hustler...get the money..no matter how small it all adds up. I love playing in five dollar ring games. I make good money..but the cost of living and the fact of being married really prevents you from playing for big money.. I talked to guy last night who kinda ragged on a favorite local player of mine because he says "He doest play for big money" I told him if you can take the money a person is willing to lose then do it, dont degrade his game because his money isnt long.
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Cards and On line gambling, casino's, smoking laws..All have taken a bite out of gambling...All it takes in 1 guy willing to bet it up in a room to create action...In my 20's I either was that guy or knew those guys and where to find them...Now I can't find those guys and if I could I don't have the cash flow....I'm talking C and B players too willing to gamble, there used to be a feeder system make a few bucks and play better players off OPM, Now action is so bad you are always playing from your pocket....

The Color of Money fad brought lots of new players and $$$$$ into the game, but that is dead now...Another great movie could jump start things
 
Action

I believe it is a combination of things, as well as some things already mentioned:

1) A lot of players made a living through anonymity and a lack of knowledge by their opponents. Today though, their is much more communication of all types. Through league players and especially through the internet. Hustlers like Gary Abood could sneak into a new town, and work the player chain for awhile, all the time making more and more money.

Now, someone may have seen his face on the net, or knows about him
because of the internet, and warns local players about him.

Also, many of the suckers are no longer suckers because of communication. Back in the old days, any commucnicaton was done in a whisper between friends, today it is talked about openly. In the old days, players would not volunteer information of any kind, and they especially did not 'teach' anyone anything because they could end up playing them down the road.

Big Local tournaments that road players show up now to play in also shows up their playing speed, and lessor players learn they can not play someone with a spot, plus a lot of lessor players whine to get an 'out of order' spot on a player to try to get them on a hook, knowing that the better player makes his living playing while they have a job with money coming in.

It is like Jam said, a lot of these players are becoming tournament players now, where before players could strictly survive off money games, and
never play a tournament.

2) The Economy somewhat because a lot of people have been laid off,
because of cut backs or outsourcing of jobs. Companies are getting
rid of workers over 40 with lots of seniority in favor of college kids at
1/3 of the salary as the older worker made. That takes a lot of
disposable income away, and the players that around 40 or so used
to be the ones that had lots of money to gamble with.

Coupled with the fact that the cost of living has risen.

3) Most people have the 'false' notion that even though they are not
a skiled poker player that they can win lots of money by getting lucky.
I could go through a probability model of Texas Holdem against 6-30
Holdem players vs. 1 Pool player to prove my point, but it would be too
lengthy. Lets just say, with the game your are in, and evaluating your
skill vs. all of your opponents, if you can't do the numbers as far as
your chances of winning, you should not be playing that game.
There are other reasons for sure, but these are some that I believe
have affected Pool action and gambling.
 
The Kiss said:
All it takes in 1 guy willing to bet it up in a room to create action...In my 20's I either was that guy or knew those guys and where to find them...Now I can't find those guys and if I could I don't have the cash flow....I'm talking C and B players too willing to gamble, there used to be a feeder system make a few bucks and play better players off OPM, Now action is so bad you are always playing from your pocket....
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The trickle down theory, or "rain makers" Great point!...the room where I came up the owner played everyone, he had money and lost it sometimes :D. Also one of the local bookies liked to play and lost some. That money deffinately trickled down to us little fish, or we lost trying to get some of it.

Gerry
 
catscradle said:
IMHO, the cost of living has nothing to do with it. Your dad probably didn't mention that the average working class income when he built that house was well under 4 or 5000 a year. I can remember a neighbor of mine in the late 50's bragging about his dad making 100 bucks a week as a union carpenter when he had work. There is as much disposable income around as there ever was or more. Assuming the old-timers are right and not just mis-remembering the reason I would guess is that ... 1. fewer people play pool and 2. those that like to gamble have other avenues to gamble (i.e. casinos everywhere).
Click to expand...

I disagree, I think Gerry is right on the money. As a person with a good job, no kids, and no student loans (thanks, grandparents) who can't even close to afford a house right now, I feel cost of living has everything to do with it. Around where I live, to get hold of some property and have a very modest house built would cost you easily half a million dollars. Just buying a free-standing 3-bedroom house in my neck of the woods, even a pretty shoddy one on a truly miniscule plot, costs $375K or more. Compare that to having a house built for only 2 or 3 years of a working class salary. Unless "working class salary" is well over 6 figures, the cost-of-living:salary ratio has gone way up.

To use myself as an example: I have a bachelor's of engineering in software engineering, and a job developing software for a large defense contracting company, and the rent on my apartment is enough to prevent me from being able to save house-buying money on my own. To buy a house within the next few years, I will need to find somebody to split the costs with. The only other way would be to move back in with my parents and save 100% of my take-home salary. I don't think they'd enjoy that.

In the 50's, as a 25-year-old unmarried engineer working for a successful firm for the last 3 years, I'd have a house, a new car, and until I started supporting a family of 5 on my income alone (dual-income wasn't exactly common back then), PLENTY of pool stake-money. Just a thought.

-Andrew
 
catscradle said:
There is as much disposable income around as there ever was or more.
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Not true. Prices have soared at a significantly higher rate than wages except for certain consumer goods and very fortunate brackets of the service economy. And that is why the American population is working more than it has for at least half a century.

What takes place today is, that people can get loans/credit much more easily and that creates the ILLUSION that they are better off. Hell, this whole economy functions on debt to an overwhelming degree.

In many cities accross the country folks are spending 50%-60% (in NYC it's 80%) of their income on rent or mortgage. That has never been the case for more than half a century.

In the 60s people would PAY OFF the house they lived in, and the car they drived. Plus, they were more likely to have health insurance and benefits due to greater unionization. I talked to MANY people who said in the 60s lots of jobs which are considered menial today would afford you a living.

The number crunchers and apologists will come up with all sorts of sophist arguments to deny the reality that people had plainly more financial security in the 50s and 60s (with the exception of the African American population, of course) than today.
 
Everything used to cost less and people made less, but there has been a real change in disposable income - gambling money, that is. Real wages, adjusted for inflation, have lost ground over the last thirty years, at least for the middle and lower classes. (For those making over $512,000 a year it's been the other way around.)
The last half of the 1990s saw a lot of extra money flying around (and a lot of optimism, which made people unafraid to risk money or part with it), but in the last five or six years things have gotten very tight for the middle and lower classes in real dollars.
The cost of being on the road is, in real dollars, higher now than twenty-five or fifty years ago. The change in available excess cash and general economic miasma has also influenced the amount of betting and the amounts bet.
Current stats on home prices are that people spend 5x annual income, whereas a few short years ago it was 4x. More dollars tied up in the homestead.
Combined with the things that Scott mentioned in his post about the internet and the population in general being educated about hustles it's created a situation with a less easy action. The bookies and other cash rich people still want to be players and put their money to work, but everyday action has shifted to poker.
 
you were suppose to spend only 25% of your wages for buying a house. my parents house i grew up in cost 97.00 a month, or 21,000.00. in the good neiborhood???????????????/
 
Times They Are Changing

I too heard the "My first house cost less than a new car" from my dad too. I'm on my 3rd house and I lost significant money on the first 2.....(bad decesion making on my part). I moved away from Nova to Delaware to give myself a geographic pay raise........This house I'm in is a right place right time situation .....It actually appreciated in value and I was able to use that to make improvements/renovations to the house. Consequently the value has gone up and I'm getting screwed with higher taxes.

There are pockets of the country where it is impossible to afford a house....and places in Kansas where they're literally giving them away to get people to move back ....

I don't think it's the cost of the house I think it's the gotta have it now, keep up with the Jones mentality. My 21 yr old son has a decent job, and is constantly buying new this or that gadget or stereo whatever.....He works hard for his money, but he hasn't a clue how to save. He grew up into our instant gratification world......
Maybe it's my fault......I sacrificed and did without so my kids could have the things I didn't have growing up.....Maybe this was the wrong approach......We suffered financially in the early years, but the kids never saw it...

Why don't I gamble???? Well I don't have enough game right now.... and I'm more focused on getting my kids out of the house and autonomous so I can get a pool table and a game......Then you'll see me out there......soon very soon......

McCue Banger McCue
 
Many people still have a lot of disposable income, but it is spent differently than it used to be. Think about how many more bills most people have now than they used to have. Before it was the house payment, car, utilities, gas, food, necessities, and entertainment.

Now people have all those things plus the cell phone bill, cable, internet, credit cards, kids day care, two cars instead of one and many other bills that were not around before. Look how many new goods and gadgets there are to buy now. CD player, CDs, DVD player, DVDs, computers, ipods, cameras, video games, I could go on for a long time but I think you probably get the picture. The thing is most people are now considering these things as necessities instead of luxuries. This is where our disposable income has gone. Most of it on junk that we are going to replace with the "new and improved" model that comes out six months or a year later.

Try walking around your house and add up the costs of everything in it that was not around 20 , 30, 40, 50 years ago. That is a lot of your disposable income. Can I get along without my cell phone, yes, but do I want to? Hell no! But I could probably survive just fine without the Playstation 2 or the ipod. LOL

So it is up to you. Spend your money on the computer you are using right now, the CD you are listening to and the cable TV you are watching or lay it down on the green cloth and take the risk of going home and staring at the empty entertainment center. And don't forget, you have to find the sucker that is willing to risk the same thing. lol

Just my 2 cents

Nathan
 
Yeah i have disposable income..i really do..but here is a good example of how it gets spent...i had every intention of going to vally forge to play in the tournment and to gamble..i had planned to take about 600 buck with me ....but ohh nooo...my wife was like.."lets go see the Dolphins swim down in Va. Beach".. she didnt know about Valley Forge..i didnt let her know in time..so did i end up there meeting some of you guys in real life...nooooo my ass was in va beach..cold as hell ...in a resort..walking down a empty beach strip.."did i say cold as hell yet" ..didnt even get to see the 8$%@ing Dolphins swim..they left last week..how the hell did they know they left ? I went to some resturant and my wife orders a steak..(market price mind you) a sirloin...25.00..for a tough ass burnt Sirloin..i mean come on..did they know the cow personally..the only thing that i gained from the trip was that it made my wife happy..I did get some cool pool shirts airbrushed on the beach strip...got a flaming skull with nineballs for eyes and had it say.."Dont Fear the Man ...Fear the Game" my own design..haha..but we spent 650 buck in three days..damn.. the was a really cool highlight..We went for 2 hour cruise on the Virginia Jewel..it was wonderful..bar on the upper deck Dinning area on the lower..
 
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