My taste of humble pie
- Thread starter jay helfert
- Start date
Only way...
The only way to learn is by trying. When you try to do things you will inevitably make mistakes. The only guaranteed way to never make mistakes is to never try anything you have not done. That practice will result in stagnation and ultimately extinction. Glad you learned something and owned up to the errors. Way to go Jay
The only way to learn is by trying. When you try to do things you will inevitably make mistakes. The only guaranteed way to never make mistakes is to never try anything you have not done. That practice will result in stagnation and ultimately extinction. Glad you learned something and owned up to the errors. Way to go Jay
....Kudos.....
I admit I couldn't help think what event(s) caused Jay to post this humble pie post.
Did they corner him somewhere and threaten to sanction him in some way?
Or did Jay have a coffee or meal with someone from Raya or the WPA and came away with a genuine change of heart?
What gives Jay?
Can you elaborate on the event(s) or conversations that lead to this post?
Did they corner him somewhere and threaten to sanction him in some way?
Or did Jay have a coffee or meal with someone from Raya or the WPA and came away with a genuine change of heart?
What gives Jay?
Can you elaborate on the event(s) or conversations that lead to this post?
kano said:
We did have a face to face meeting. Ian Anderson, Thomas Overback, Yen Makabenta and me. Yes, I was a little uncomforatble being slightly outnumbered, but I had to back up my words in person. I am not one to hide behind a computer screen.
We brought all our differences out into the open, and spoke openly about whatever displeased us. I felt that, although it was not the most comfortable of settings, we achieved resolution in most respects. I learned things in this meeting that made me realize I may have been premature in some of my judgements about the WPA. In the future I may not always agree with their policies, but I will deal directly with the principals.
There was no "deal" of any kind made, just a chance to air our feelings with no barriers between us. And hopefully, be able to work together for the betterment of the sport. I think in this respect we have similar goals.
jay helfert said:
It would've been better if you brought someone "in-the-know" like Bandido or Sputnik with you Jay. These 2 people can confirm or rebut whatever Ian/Overback/Yen will try to say to you to entice to join the dark side of the force. You may know something Jay, but these 2 gentlemen knows everything when it comes to Philippine pool. It's just like you went to battle but you were low on ammo. Things would've been clearer if you heard both sides, that set-up was just one-sided, and you were set up.
Just my 2 centavos...
wow- I think jay is sleep typing, now,or cuffed
You went by yourself-what about back up?or ( I guess you were jacked up) Wouldn't (freezer, wiseman work off the 3900.) I'm sure they would'a come. (Your a short bald guy that talks sweet) you get everybody pumped up,travel to the phillippines, tell stories of this and that- At least tell us you said sure we'll meet down in LA, Compton- (or tell us they put those finger cuffs on ya and made you type crow. Just curious does (humble pie) taste anything like (blackbird pie)? because I've eaten crow before. Just like tyson I bit his ear off- thanks Guess I need another hero now. have a great tournement, showing- mark
You went by yourself-what about back up?or ( I guess you were jacked up) Wouldn't (freezer, wiseman work off the 3900.) I'm sure they would'a come. (Your a short bald guy that talks sweet) you get everybody pumped up,travel to the phillippines, tell stories of this and that- At least tell us you said sure we'll meet down in LA, Compton- (or tell us they put those finger cuffs on ya and made you type crow. Just curious does (humble pie) taste anything like (blackbird pie)? because I've eaten crow before. Just like tyson I bit his ear off- thanks Guess I need another hero now. have a great tournement, showing- mark
jay helfert said:
I agree that having a world wide sanctioning body is a good thing. Every sport need its organizations to run it.
The problem is not with these organizations or their vision, the problem usually is with the people who stand at the head of these organization. History always repeats it self.... people come with good intention and very fast they get greedy and corrupted. This is why there are elections every few years but for some reason it is always the same people remains there...
The founders of these organizations always make sure that they could not be removed.... and who gets to vote anyway????
When it comes to pool, pool players (especially men) are not so innocent... If Efren Reyes was told 20 years ago that the World pool championship (9ball and 10ball) will be held in Manila with $400,000 prize money he would have been the first in line to sign up....
jay helfert said:
Fine enough Jay,
In the end it's these kinds of face to face, put everythig out in the open conversations that the powers that be in the sport needs more of.
It's too bad Yen and BMPAP cannot have one of these and both make some concessions to come together. They are the only two parties that can resolve whatever issues they have. No one from the US or WPA can do it for them.
kano
Jay, who were you representing at this meeting? It seems to me that you ran into the propaganda machine - big style!
This tournament has not been a raging success.
OK, I have to tread carefully and pick my words. But I come from the UK which is where two of the reigning WPA Champions reside. I was responsible for creating the environment which in turn helped to create this situation.
So my credentials are sufficient for me to have an educated view on the scenario.
A tournament is not solely about prize money - if it does get paid then great. But the event has no charisma, no panache.
To Jay and to my good friends Jerry Forsyth and Peter Aprile who took me to task in another thread (World 10 Ball - Who Cares?),
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=115395
I say that you are all there and can see the action but what about the rest of the world?
One of my countrymen wins it and all that can be seen are unreliable internet feeds that failed when he took the winning rack. This is supposed to be the WPA's flagship event? Why are there no AZ-TV segments, interviews, colour commentary?
What happened to Jay (the scourge of the IPT)? Have they drawn your talons? I still have a lot of respect for you in many matters but as I read somewhere else on this thread I think that some of your public are looking for a new hero.
So who does care? Phoebe Choy made some great points straight from the heart and there are a few others like Martin (Sputnik) who can really see the wood from the trees? Nobody really wants conflict but if something is not right then these issues must be aired.
I don't purport to have all the answers but the WTBC is a flawed entity.
Finally Congratulations Darren. Now it is two Yorkie World Title Holders for the UK
This tournament has not been a raging success.
OK, I have to tread carefully and pick my words. But I come from the UK which is where two of the reigning WPA Champions reside. I was responsible for creating the environment which in turn helped to create this situation.
So my credentials are sufficient for me to have an educated view on the scenario.
A tournament is not solely about prize money - if it does get paid then great. But the event has no charisma, no panache.
To Jay and to my good friends Jerry Forsyth and Peter Aprile who took me to task in another thread (World 10 Ball - Who Cares?),
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=115395
I say that you are all there and can see the action but what about the rest of the world?
One of my countrymen wins it and all that can be seen are unreliable internet feeds that failed when he took the winning rack. This is supposed to be the WPA's flagship event? Why are there no AZ-TV segments, interviews, colour commentary?
What happened to Jay (the scourge of the IPT)? Have they drawn your talons? I still have a lot of respect for you in many matters but as I read somewhere else on this thread I think that some of your public are looking for a new hero.
So who does care? Phoebe Choy made some great points straight from the heart and there are a few others like Martin (Sputnik) who can really see the wood from the trees? Nobody really wants conflict but if something is not right then these issues must be aired.
I don't purport to have all the answers but the WTBC is a flawed entity.
Finally Congratulations Darren. Now it is two Yorkie World Title Holders for the UK
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skor said:
I am talking about my experience here. I have presided 3 different organizations; a community service org, an Employee Union, and the PR Billiard Federation. In some organizations it is best to go through several positions to gain experience and expertise on the matter (community service), then you go for the Presidency. There are many things to tackle when you are trying to best serve your community. It is not easy and the people supporting the organization needs to know what has to be done to be successful. You may see a few cycles of the same people interchanging leadership positions until the "rest of the people" decide to put more time to their service.
With the Union, you need to know what you are doing. It is not just fighting against management. You need to learn Labor-Law without going to Law School. You don't need a "big mouth"; you need someone willing and able to analyse the problems and come up with solutions to benefit both management and union employees. Not many people are cut-out for this, and the most "intelligent" ones don't want to get "burned" with management or have their precious off-duty time inmersed into resolving conflicts. You need full-time office equipment. Computer, printer, fax, scanner, telephone and internet service, paper and computer supplies, and a comfortable desk. My home dining room was converted to a dining room/office space. Nobody wants the job but want the benefits. Some people need to go through the position cycle to either prove themselves or convince themselves that you are cut for the position. While there will always be bystanders criticizing your position but not stepping up to the plate to help/assist.
In Billiards, we all know the story. Players want the best but offer no help. I had just stepped off the Union Presidency (2 terms) and was able to keep my office equipment. I went on to be the Chief Union Steward of 3 Govmt Agencies and Chief Negotiator for the Collective Bargaining Units, and it was still as if I was the President. The same long work hours after my regular daytime job but with the added task to organize our Billiard Federation. It took me six months to organize the requested paperwork and begin our recognition with the governing bodies. By-laws, constitution, rules, meetings, selling the product to our billiard players (there had been about 3 other failed attempts before we got recognition). For the first year, nobody wanted the Secretary or Secretary/Treasurer positions. I had to do everything. I was working practically 8-10 hours after coming home from work. No assistance. After that we have had 2 Vice-Presidents, and only one Secretary/Treasurer in 5years of being organized because no one wants to handle the "hot potato."
In my experience I have gained no riches but lots of headaches and heartaches. I have used my own personal funds to travel and maintain my home office environment. I have also help players attend U.S., Caribbean and South American Regional and World Events out of my own pocket. Several thousand dollars my friend.
The bottom line is that people want to be organized, obtain benefits, for nothing in return (just their presence) unless there is some money to their pockets. And then, you still get criticized because everything is not peaches and roses. If people are not willing to step-up to the plate, you will see the same people occupying different positions within the organization. Everytime the "election periods" come up, many members shy away of their responsibilities. They don't want to be nominated so they shy away of any participation, and therefore skip their voting privileges.
There might be an appearance that many organizations are swimming in the money, but in most instances, this is not true. The allegations of corruption always seem to come up as a defense mechanizism of those criticizing the organization as a powerful tool to "have another voice" against the people who are serving. There will always be a possibility of "true corruption" within the ranks of an organization but it is the members responsibility to correct the problem at the base, put in new people, and work together for the benefit of the organization; not to bring it down, as we see very often.
Again this is only my experience.
Back on the original thread, Jay had the opportunity to see the other side of the rainbow, and he was humble enough to come on board and let everyone know that he had erred on some of his presumptions. It is also excellent to know he still stands behind some of his opinions, and only he can chose to change them at the appropriate time. There is no need for anyone to think that he was entrapped or cornered. He is a grown man, and he definitely knows what he was doing and seems confortable with what transpired at the meeting. Good for you Jay.
Just my 2 cents....
I am happy that Jay now has accepted and has a clear view of why he was not considered as a commentator for the WTBC. His humble pie came with the reality that the owners of the tournament do have the prerogative to select their tournament personalities.
But that is the only detail we know about Jay's face to face meeting. For Jay to assume credibility in other issues that were discussed merely because of the fact that he had a face to face is not right, most especially because it is a secret that he wants to divulge only as a teaser.
It seems that eating humble pie was being put in the right place. In that disposition, I would understand how Jay could only absorb, after being humbled into submission. It is an old trick in negotiations - tilt the table and take it from your superior bargaining power. In this instance, the bargaining could have been perspective. So I believe that Jay was not "bought" but I think his perspective was had.
With all due respect, Jay... you had given us a window to speculate on what happened because of your secret teaser.
The community deserves to know why there should be a swing in how Makabenta and Andersen are perceived by those who understand the plight of BMPAP.
Perhaps it is you who can make the difference in solving this issue. Tell us something that we do not know.
But that is the only detail we know about Jay's face to face meeting. For Jay to assume credibility in other issues that were discussed merely because of the fact that he had a face to face is not right, most especially because it is a secret that he wants to divulge only as a teaser.
It seems that eating humble pie was being put in the right place. In that disposition, I would understand how Jay could only absorb, after being humbled into submission. It is an old trick in negotiations - tilt the table and take it from your superior bargaining power. In this instance, the bargaining could have been perspective. So I believe that Jay was not "bought" but I think his perspective was had.
With all due respect, Jay... you had given us a window to speculate on what happened because of your secret teaser.
The community deserves to know why there should be a swing in how Makabenta and Andersen are perceived by those who understand the plight of BMPAP.
Perhaps it is you who can make the difference in solving this issue. Tell us something that we do not know.
My "issues" with the WPA and Yen had nothing to do with the BCSP/BMPAP conflict. In comparison my differences with them were relatively minor. Nothing that couldn't be ironed out in a face to face meeting. And I believe I explained this adequately in my original post
From my perspective the other major conflict in the Philippine pool world has little to do with the WPA or their sanctioning of the WTBC. Like so many conflicts, underneath it all is a clash of personalities. Read into this what you want, but so much of what I see on here is far off base. More of a smoke screen for what is not being said.
From my perspective the other major conflict in the Philippine pool world has little to do with the WPA or their sanctioning of the WTBC. Like so many conflicts, underneath it all is a clash of personalities. Read into this what you want, but so much of what I see on here is far off base. More of a smoke screen for what is not being said.
I too have had harsh words about the WPA in the past. I had the pleasure of interviewing Ian Anderson at the 2006 Women's World Championships in Taiwan.
A lot of us don't really know what goes on in the WPA. Most of us don't know how much the WPA really does with so little actual resources.
The WPA board is really a volunteer effort. Very often the members pay their own way to board meetings and very often pay for whatever needs to be done. The only way that the organization has income is through sanctioning fees for "world" events and some stipends from the continental members.
The WPA was formed to try and unify billiard sports worldwide. Not as a power trip but instead to simply try and make it so that pool could be enjoyed under the same format worldwide.
These people, Ian Anderson, Thomas Overbeck and the rest of the board love the billiard sports. They put a lot of their time into this mission of giving billiards a stable worldwide platform. But honestly, it's a bit much for them in the fragmented world of pool.
I am not taking sides. Just remember please that these are people who have given a lot to the game and made it possible that a lot of players could benefit worldwide.
Please try to look at the whole body of work and don't get too wrapped up in current situations.
Like Jay, my view of the WPA was tempered after actually talking with someone with a lot more insight than my own. Politics sucks, strife sucks, and being fragmented sucks.
No one is getting rich governing or promoting pool tournaments. So people who do it either love the game or are really hard headed.
As I get older I really am learning the value of seeing things from the other side's perspective. Doing so brings me greater peace of mind even when it doesn't lead to a peaceful resolution.
So I can understand Jay's perspective and know that he wasn't bought or bamboozled. He just gained some insight where he previously didn't have any. One thing the pool world needs is more understanding and trying to pull people together rather than ripping them apart. Win or lose, one should try to conduct oneself with dignity. That's a lesson I am still learning. At the end of the day those who are fighting now will find that they need each other somewhere down the road. That cycle has been proven countless times throughout history.
A lot of us don't really know what goes on in the WPA. Most of us don't know how much the WPA really does with so little actual resources.
The WPA board is really a volunteer effort. Very often the members pay their own way to board meetings and very often pay for whatever needs to be done. The only way that the organization has income is through sanctioning fees for "world" events and some stipends from the continental members.
The WPA was formed to try and unify billiard sports worldwide. Not as a power trip but instead to simply try and make it so that pool could be enjoyed under the same format worldwide.
These people, Ian Anderson, Thomas Overbeck and the rest of the board love the billiard sports. They put a lot of their time into this mission of giving billiards a stable worldwide platform. But honestly, it's a bit much for them in the fragmented world of pool.
I am not taking sides. Just remember please that these are people who have given a lot to the game and made it possible that a lot of players could benefit worldwide.
Please try to look at the whole body of work and don't get too wrapped up in current situations.
Like Jay, my view of the WPA was tempered after actually talking with someone with a lot more insight than my own. Politics sucks, strife sucks, and being fragmented sucks.
No one is getting rich governing or promoting pool tournaments. So people who do it either love the game or are really hard headed.
As I get older I really am learning the value of seeing things from the other side's perspective. Doing so brings me greater peace of mind even when it doesn't lead to a peaceful resolution.
So I can understand Jay's perspective and know that he wasn't bought or bamboozled. He just gained some insight where he previously didn't have any. One thing the pool world needs is more understanding and trying to pull people together rather than ripping them apart. Win or lose, one should try to conduct oneself with dignity. That's a lesson I am still learning. At the end of the day those who are fighting now will find that they need each other somewhere down the road. That cycle has been proven countless times throughout history.
And we witness Jay fully, albeit remorsefully, embracing cranky old man-ness.
Welcome.
Welcome.
Black-Balled said:
If I have a choice, I'll take getting older to the alternative. :wink:
Just saw this thread Jay. That was some pretty sporty posting. Publicly admitting the error in your judgment and apology shows a lot of character and I'm truly impressed.
Perhaps the powers that be will realize your change of perspective and give you another chance.
For my two cents, you deserve another chance and I am positive you would be a valuable asset to the WPA and Yen Makebenta.
------------------------------------------------------------
Can I call you Mr. GingerBread Man? :smile:
Best Regards,
JoeyA
Perhaps the powers that be will realize your change of perspective and give you another chance.
For my two cents, you deserve another chance and I am positive you would be a valuable asset to the WPA and Yen Makebenta.
------------------------------------------------------------
Can I call you Mr. GingerBread Man? :smile:
Best Regards,
JoeyA