My Thread... just so I can make some comments on... whatever.

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Nic Barrow made a comment about collision induced throw & compensating for it when talking about Ghost Ball in a link posted in another thread.

Naturally 'most' better players compensate for it subconsciously, as they do much of all else that is involved in playing the game.

One does not pull a slide rule or calculator from out of their back pocket & calculate everything out using formulas, etc.

The game is not played in a text book or in a sterile laboratory.

There are days when the ball will throw much & days when it will throw little.

One needs to be flexible & quick on the 'adjustments' & that is what the amazing subconscious mind is capable of doing & doing it so that the player does not even have to give it any thought.

Also, I THINK that when Mr. Barrow made that comment, I do not think that he was talking about making an adjustment for any one shot at a time per say, but meant instead that they, better players, have a built in overall 'feel' data based built & that the subconscious simply works off of that.

All this said, I suppose that there are those that might have a formula or a set of rules & ratios in their head & then consciously apply such.

I just think that they will then have to make adjustments off of those too for every given whether & cleanliness (clean or not) conditions or lack there of.

Some might chime in & ask, well what about the first shot, etc.

Well, that is what 'warming up' is about. It's NOT just warming up one's muscles for making pool strokes.

It's for warming up one's subconscious & 'feel' with regards to actual playing conditions at hand.

As I said the subconscious mind is an Amazing Entity.

Best Wishes to All.
 
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That just proves that a good player stays down and pays attention to the collision of the two balls.
NO MATTER WHAT SYSTEM YOU USE.
Never mind how that also changes how you aim the billiard or carom.
Let's not even talk about dirty balls and newly polished balls at the start of the tournaments.
A world class player told me years ago ( he played at the Stardust World Straight pool championship ) , they used TOI on all rail shots. Mosconi included.
 
I do not believe CIT happens on every shot. I've actually never adjusted for it.

I believe there is a point that if the CB speed is above it, CIT occurs. Keep the CB speed below that point, no CIT.

I believe the CB speed used in tests to prove CIT are not reflective of the true speeds used during actual play. Stating CB speeds as slow, medium or fast are too subjective to be of any use to me.

Example....in motorcycling and bicycling, there is a concept called countersteering. This is when in order to turn right, you push on the right handlebar in effect turning the front wheel left, but the bike goes right.

But, below a certain speed, pushing right on the handlebars will turn the bike left.

Where this speed is is different on all bikes.

What this implies is that just because something happens at a certain speed, does not mean occurs at lower speeds.

A OB just 2 inches from the pocket, hit such that the OB barely makes the pocket will not have CIT.
 
duckie said:
I do not believe CIT happens on every shot. I've actually never adjusted for it.

I believe there is a point that if the CB speed is above it, CIT occurs. Keep the CB speed below that point, no CIT.

I believe the CB speed used in tests to prove CIT are not reflective of the true speeds used during actual play. Stating CB speeds as slow, medium or fast are too subjective to be of any use to me.

Example....in motorcycling and bicycling, there is a concept called countersteering. This is when in order to turn right, you push on the right handlebar in effect turning the front wheel left, but the bike goes right.

But, below a certain speed, pushing right on the handlebars will turn the bike left.

Where this speed is is different on all bikes.

What this implies is that just because something happens at a certain speed, does not mean occurs at lower speeds.

A OB just 2 inches from the pocket, hit such that the OB barely makes the pocket will not have CIT.
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Greg,

I understand your points but would not necessarily agree with every specific.

Roger Long thought that CB squirt might not exist for shots hit more softly with high & side english until I & Dr. Dave convinced him that it is there but that the reaction is different, in that the direction of the squirt is across & DOWN into the table cloth & the swerve starts very much sooner.

CIT is a physical fact that must be overcome in some way to negate the effect of the friction between the two balls, cut the amounts do vary.

The point of my original post was to point out that better players may not give it a single conscious thought & therefore never really 'realize' it other than knowing that it exist.

Mike Sigel once, or more than once, stated that squirt does not exists, or was it swerve, I forget.

The point being that these things may never be in one's conscious thoughts but they are there in one's subconscious & are taken care of with adjustments by one's subconscious mind.

You do know, don't you, that a certain aiming method has a 'natural' slight over cut built in to it naturally by mother nature, & I would think that mother nature did that because of collision induced throw.

When I was 13 & being taught ghost ball by my Dad, without him ever using the phase 'ghost ball', he taught me to 'aim' it, the ghost ball alignment for the 'over cut' side of center pocket & he said it was because it, the cue ball, will PUSH IT.

Best to You & ALL
 
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duckie said:
I do not believe CIT happens on every shot. I've actually never adjusted for it.
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That's not evidence. We adjust in many ways we don't notice.

I believe there is a point that if the CB speed is above it, CIT occurs. Keep the CB speed below that point, no CIT.
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Dr. Dave says the opposite: "Maximum cut-induced throw (CIT), with no english, occurs with a slow-speed stun shot at about a 1/2-ball hit."

pj
chgo
 
1. Nick Barrow said nothing new or even remotely interesting as far as I could tell in that video.

2. CIT happens.

3. If you don't compensate for CIT you will not make a whole lot of balls.

4. Allmost all of our compensations are made subconsciously. Think about it. Have you ever tried one of those carnival bikes where the handlebar turns the weel the opposite way compared to a regular bike? You get a price if you can ride it a short distance. Those carnies sure don't hand out a lot of those prices, even if people know that they must do it the opposite way, they can't. Because the tiny compensations you make on the bike is done entirely subconsciously and quicker and better than you can ever dream to achieve with your conscious mind. It's the same way in pool. If you have to consciously think of every little thing, you'll play like a f-ing donkey! When I play my best I only think about where I want my cueball to go. The pot is a given. Obviously I'm not perfect, but this is what the zone is, what we strive for.

5. Making an elaborate compensation system, is much like the carnie telling you that the handlebar turns the weel the opposite way. However correct this information may be, you need a lot of practice to make any use of it, and it might be better in fact to keep your conscious mind out of the way and learn like a child, through trial and error.

6. This is not an anti-aiming system rant. Aiming system gives you something to look at, to concentrate on while you shoot. In essence you get "cues" that your subconscious can pick up on. When you try to control, and micro manage every little thing, that's where you end up making mistakes.
 
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Straightpool_99 said:
1. Nick Barrow said nothing new or even remotely interesting as far as I could tell in that video.

2. CIT happens.

3. If you don't compensate for CIT you will not make a whole lot of balls.

4. Allmost all of our compensations are made subconsciously. Think about it. Have you ever tried one of those carnival bikes where the handlebar turns the weel the opposite way compared to a regular bike? You get a price if you can ride it a short distance. Those carnies sure don't hand out a lot of those prices, even if people know that they must do it the opposite way, they can't. Because the tiny compensations you make on the bike is done entirely subconsciously and quicker and better than you can ever dream to achieve with your conscious mind. It's the same way in pool. If you have to consciously think of every little thing, you'll play like a f-ing donkey! When I play my best I only think about where I want my cueball to go. The pot is a given. Obviously I'm not perfect, but this is what the zone is, what we strive for.

5. Making an elaborate compensation system, is much like the carnie telling you that the handlebar turns the weel the opposite way. However correct this information may be, you need a lot of practice to make any use of it, and it might be better in fact to keep your conscious mind out of the way and learn like a child, through trial and error.

6. This is not an anti-aiming system rant. Aiming system gives you something to look at, to concentrate on while you shoot. In essence you get "cues" that your subconscious can pick up on. When you try to control, and micro manage every little thing, that's where you end up making mistakes.
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:thumbup2::thumbup2:

Very Good Post.

That Zone is so Awesome that It's Like God Entered Your Body & is Playing through you.

Like you say, there is no concern & the focus is ALL on getting the CB to the next spot.

The cue stick & tip are part of you & you ARE the cue ball.

It's not I want to put the ball there. It's "I" want to be there.

Thanks for Your Post. I appreciate it.

Best Wishes to You & All.

PS Our Subconscious Mind is an Amazing ENTITY.
 
This appears to be going in the right direction.

English, nice thread

Side note, anyone watch the nova special on the brain where the scientist and the kid stack cups and they measure the brain response?

Found it (only available for a few more days) http://video.pbs.org/video/2365564819/
 
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couldnthinkof01 said:
This appears to be going in the right direction.

English, nice thread

Side note, anyone watch the nova special on the brain where the scientist and the kid stack cups and they measure the brain response?

Found it (only available for a few more days) http://video.pbs.org/video/2365564819/
Click to expand...

Sure there is a lot about the brain we still don't know. But I think it's been well known for a long time that practice, deep practice, leads to high performance that flows instinctively. I.e. you train yourself to react instinctively and reflexively rather than consciously.

When I was diving the time to analyze was in practice, that's when we worked out the details and finer points. When in competition we tried to stay warm and relaxed so as to let the dives happen.

Same thing in pool. You practice until it's "natural".

Aiming, whatever method a person uses they should work it until they don't need to think about it any longer. And if that method ends up being all they need to perform at the highest level then no need to ever try anything else.
 
couldnthinkof01 said:
This appears to be going in the right direction.

English, nice thread

Side note, anyone watch the nova special on the brain where the scientist and the kid stack cups and they measure the brain response?

Found it (only available for a few more days) http://video.pbs.org/video/2365564819/
Click to expand...

Thank you much for both the compliment regarding the thread & for providing that link.

What to say about that piece & the subjectS, plural because there are many hidden in that piece.

Firstly, if anyone thinks that that production was neutral & unbiased they are mistaken & incorrect.

Evolution vs Creationism?

Slaves vs Free Will Individuals?

Limitless Personal Abilities Potential vs Predisposed Boundaries of such in some areas?

I am surprised to see the brevity of John Barton’s post given the glimpses I have seen into his thinking on some of the subject matter.

Also, if anyone thinks that that that guy hit a 90+mph fast ball in that video, they are mistaken & incorrect. That deception alone sets a premise as I evaluate the rest of that video. If one is willing to even imply a deception then that sets a stage.

Some of the above are subjects for NPR & not necessarily here but to think that we can isolate just one specific matter out of a complex situation & then make correct conclusions without considering the associated parameters is simply faulty thinking.

If anyone thinks that Sigmund Fraud was anything more than an imperfect human being then they are incorrect & mistaken.

We & our brain & our consciousness & sub-consciousness learn more quantitatively than we will ever learn in the rest of our entire lives.

I had very severe migraine head aches as a child & into young adulthood & was hooked up with the ‘exact’ type of brain sensors as depicted in that video. Their limited findings were basically useless. I basically came to a point where I WILLED my migraines to cease… Or rather… I made a conscious decision to stop doing what was at the essence of the cause for the migraines & that was a part of my will & desire that i had to abandon in order for the migraines to cease. I use to say that I got rid of my own migraines, but in looking back, I would now say that I was convinced to do what needed to be done for them to be taken away. Back then I had to rationalize my decision or my ‘will’ would not have allowed me to make the decision that I ultimately made.

There is line in a Richard Gere movie were Queen Quenivere makes a statement that it is Her Will that makes Her Who She IS. It was in response to her being ‘In Love’ with Lancelot vs Her Love & Devotion to King Arthur.


We know basically nothing of the realm that were the subject matters of that ONE hour video. It was merely a very brief fist bump of an introduction & not even a good hand shake of an introduction.

I could consider it an appetizer to a possible kool aide brain washing. It had rather many brain teasers with implied conclusions that were nothing more than conjecture based on a minute amount of speculative information & that is only if one takes it as an unbiased production.

So… basically there are two parts to that video. I think only the first part is at all applicable to the matters that we are attempting to discuss here.

Which is, subconscious adjustments for CIT & the like vs consciously thought out adjustments based on knowledge of such & what effects it has & what can be done to offset &/or overcome such.

Best Wishes to All & sorry for the rant on the ‘off’ topics.
 
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After reading a couple of other recent threads, I feel compelled to say the following.

I have no choice but to conclude that Over Inflated Egos & The Self Aggrandizing Behavior of resorting to personally insulting & attacking other individuals other than dealing with the specific subject matter at hand is a direct result of one actually having A Rather Limited Intelligence... at least as it would apply to a specific topic.

Say as to what a video may be capable of proving & what a video is certainly NOT capable of proving.

This is simply a subconscious reflexive response on my part & I have no conscious control over the analysis & subsequent conclusion.

Either that, or those uncivil & insulting & attacking actions that others take are in direct contradiction to one's intelligence & are merely done in spite of such for some unknown reason to me, but for the life of me, I can not think of ONE, not eve one, Genuine & Truthful Reason for any individual to act in such a manner.

Unless one merely has an agenda & throws out reality & all else & proceeds full steam ahead to fulfill that agenda, whatever it may be.

Does God Exist? If you think so, make a video & that will prove it.

Oh... YOU think God does not exist, then YOU make a video & that will prove that God does not exist.

When did video become 'God' in our society?

Can't anyone think for themselves anymore?

Is 'everyone' now incapable of thinking for themselves or are they only able to parrot what they have been told to think by someone else?

Does everyone propose to think that whatever someone else says is correct because they have thought about it for a given length of time & have been talking about it for a given length of time or has taken over what another thought about it, so, given the combined effort that they MUST be correct?

Just some food for thought.

Best Wishes to ALL.
 
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The part of the video with the kid stacking cups shows mental energy. When you play a long tournament the lesser players do well in the beginning but towards the end they dont play the same because they have to work so hard.

Players that have short circuited their brain with a ton of practice and experience, expend less mental energy and can keep playing at the same level all the way through.
 
couldnthinkof01 said:
The part of the video with the kid stacking cups shows mental energy. When you play a long tournament the lesser players do well in the beginning but towards the end they dont play the same because they have to work so hard.

Players that have short circuited their brain with a ton of practice and experience, expend less mental energy and can keep playing at the same level all the way through.
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Your post here is sort of like Duckie's earlier in that I can agree with you to an extent but not necessarily with the particulars

Two players may have spent an equal amount of time practicing & have an equal amount of 'experience', but one might have a better winning record than the other because of the method of their play.

What you speak of is sort of what CJ Wiley was referring to when comparing using TOI as a method of play vs say hitting shots with english a lot of the time.

His thinking was/is that the simplicity & consistency of the shots played will win out in the long haul over the calculations & adjustments that one must make when using varying amounts & types of english.

I thing many took CJ to mean conscious calculations & adjustments & I do not think CJ was limiting it to just that. I think he meant subconscious calculations & adjustments as well.

Anyway, I think we agree that the better 'TYPE' of player is the one that plays in a less conscious manner & trusts their Subconscious & Feel.

I've said many times that I would rather trust my subconscious over my conscious 'intelligence' any day.

Best to You & Thanks Again for the input & the link.
 
ENGLISH! said:
After reading a couple of other recent threads, I feel compelled to say the following.

I have no choice but to conclude that Over Inflated Egos & The Self Aggrandizing Behavior of resorting to personally insulting & attacking other individuals other than dealing with the specific subject matter at hand is a direct result of one actually having A Rather Limited Intelligence... at least as it would apply to a specific topic.

Say as to what a video may be capable of proving & what a video is certainly NOT capable of proving.

This is simply a subconscious reflexive response on my part & I have no conscious control over the analysis & subsequent conclusion.

Either that, or those uncivil & insulting & attacking actions that others take are in direct contradiction to one's intelligence & are merely done in spite of such for some unknown reason to me, but for the life of me, I can not think of ONE, not eve one, Genuine & Truthful Reason for any individual to act in such a manner.

Unless one merely has an agenda & throws out reality & all else & proceeds full steam ahead to fulfill that agenda, whatever it may be.

Does God Exist? If you think so, make a video & that will prove it.

Oh... YOU think God does not exist, then YOU make a video & that will prove that God does not exist.

When did video become 'God' in our society?

Can't anyone think for themselves anymore?

Is 'everyone' now incapable of thinking for themselves or are only able to parrot what they have been told to think by someone else?

Does everyone propose to think that whatever someone else says is correct because they have thought about it for a given length of time & have been talking about it for a given length of time or has taken over what another thought about it, so, given the combined effort that they MUST be correct?

Just some food for thought.

Best Wishes to ALL.
Click to expand...

Why when people are complimenting the thread do you go off and call people stupid. Yea you didn't use the word stupid but any reasonable, logical thinking individual can see that's what you meant.
 
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